(Topic ID: 118328)

Longevity of pinball?


By 5280wzrd

4 years ago



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  • 152 posts
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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by thedefog
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    Topic poll

    “Longevity of pinball?”

    • A few more years 2-5? 15 votes
      6%
    • 10 years or until the "Kings" are gone. 64 votes
      26%
    • New and exciting innovations will allow pinball to live on 165 votes
      68%

    (244 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

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    There are 152 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 4.
    #1 4 years ago

    Was just thinking, (yes I know it dangerous) will the pinball story continue? Are young people getting into the pinball industry as game designers? Is pinball design a dyeing art? Is this industry attractive enough to entice young people to make it a career? Who are the youngest designers and who are they working for? I wonder if this age of being connected 24/7 and this generation that is growing up with the Internet in their back pocket will have any interest in this analog game?

    Just food for thought.

    Lem

    18
    #2 4 years ago

    The last decade has seen growth in all things pinball.

    I think there is no stopping it.

    LTG : )™

    #3 4 years ago

    It will never die. I speak truth.

    #4 4 years ago

    There aren't that many people making a career of it today, all things considered. Are there even more than 1000 people in the world making a living in this industry (production, sales/distribution and operators)? It's a niche industry at this point and may stay that way indefinitely. I think we'll see more one-off type games being designed by hobbyists, maybe more small-run boutique type stuff, and products such as P-ROC that lead to that end. Maybe careers for younger designers will come out of the custom-made stuff and maybe they'll get brought into the Sterns and JJPs of tomorrow.

    While there's certainly less chance for public exposure to pinball at this point, something that's different is that games are probably less likely to be destroyed when coming off of routes or when people get tired of owning them. That means more games in people's homes. Really if collectors hold onto them and pass them off to other collectors, there's no reason the current NIBs wouldn't be around many years from now probably in roughly the same volume. The issue would be whether or not replacement parts are available to keep them up and running indefinitely.

    There are quite a few expos around now, too, and I think kids end up going to those and liking them. I think the expo craze is pretty recent. My local Louisville Arcade Expo will have its 5th annual event this year.

    I find young kids of my family and friends interested in the pins when they see them at my house. If the generation of late 20's/early 30's who are just now at the point where they can afford pins end up passing the interest onto their kids, there's a good chance people will be interested for a good while yet. I sure hope when I have a kid that I am able to get him or her interested.

    I think what pinball has going against it is that the current late 20's/early 30's people are among the last to have memories of abundant public arcades. I think a lot of what drives the desire to own games is the nostalgia factor, well and that it's just awesome! I fall into this group, but admittedly wasn't into pinball as much as arcade games as a kid, so there's hope for others to get into pinball later in life, too.

    13
    #5 4 years ago

    I am 40 and I am taking this hobby to my grave. It is without question the most rewarding hobby I have ever done. I sold my Corvette for pinball!!

    #6 4 years ago

    I was looking at my dads hobby, old radios. We're talking about multiple dials, vacuum tubes, many different voltage batteries. Kind of cool stuff. Again nostalgia, that's what he grew up with. But truly for me, I cant see myself getting into them. I just see pinball that way for my kids, teens. They like to play, they think they are cool, and they love to go to the shows. I don't think they will ever get in as deep as me. That's ok. Just sad to think this is radios for me.

    #7 4 years ago
    Quoted from 5280wzrd:

    I was looking at my dads hobby, old radios. We're talking about multiple dials, vacuum tubes, many different voltage batteries. Kind of cool stuff. Again nostalgia, that's what he grew up with. But truly for me, I cant see myself getting into them. I just see pinball that way for my kids, teens. They like to play, they think they are cool, and they love to go to the shows. I don't think they will ever get in as deep as me. That's ok. Just sad to think this is radios for me.

    Just curious, did your dad have the radio stuff the entire time you were growing up? Did you have pins the since your kids were born? I don't know whether or not it matters, but I wonder if being exposed to stuff from birth can instill a stronger, lasting interest.

    My dad was always playing instruments. Both parents played piano and sang... My mom was even a choir teacher. I'm not into making music at all, in spite of their best efforts, so I can see how the interest might not pass on. Though I think they forced the music stuff on me rather than letting me come to it on my own, so there might be something to that.

    I think with people having kids later in life these days, and therefore likely having greater financial means than if they were younger, there's a good chance of kids being born into pinball... not sure whether or not that will impact anything.

    #8 4 years ago

    Dad has been into radios before I can remember, and yes my pinball problem is older than my kids.

    #9 4 years ago

    Dad was into American Flyer trains. He and I did that hobby together when I was growing up. I have all the trains still, but pinball has eclipsed them. The trains are ageing in boxes.

    #10 4 years ago
    Quoted from thedarkknight77:

    I sold my Corvette for pinball!!

    Man, that's hardcore. Most folks would sell the pins to buy the Vette.

    28
    #11 4 years ago

    My 3 year old daughter loves playing my machines. She would play all day if I let her. Kind of shocking how much she likes them.

    image.jpg
    #12 4 years ago
    Quoted from 5280wzrd:

    Is pinball design a dyeing art?

    Nah, I think they use computers these days

    12
    #13 4 years ago
    Quoted from 5280wzrd:

    Was just thinking, (yes I know it dangerous) will the pinball story continue? Are young people getting into the pinball industry as game designers? Is pinball design a dyeing art? Is this industry attractive enough to entice young people to make it a career?TV Who are the youngest designers and who are they working for?

    Well, I'm young (23) and I freaking love pinball.

    Working in the industry would be my all time dream job, and I actually have quite a bit of skills/experience/education that would be relevant... But I wonder how proactive Stern and other manufacturers popping up are with finding new young
    talent. I get the impression that it's very hard to break into the industry, and I get the feeling that Stern (or anyone else) wouldn't want to take the risk on a designer or programmer that isn't an industry veteran. Guys like Lawler, SR, and Lyman are going retire at some point, I hope they are grooming a younger generation to fill those shoes. God knows Vonnie D won't be our savior.

    I'll also note this is speculation, it's not like I've tried to get a job in the industry and been turned down. I'm not really looking to relocate to Chicago or Jersey even if there was a chance.

    I also don't think smartphones and video games are the reason there are not a lot of young people in the hobby. The problem is pinball machines are damn expensive and hardly exist on location. People from my generation are graduating college with $50k+ debt, and then consider themselves LUCKY if they can find a job that pays $35k. Not a lot of room for a $2k++++ toy in that equation.

    #14 4 years ago

    I voted for the "pinball will live on", but I honestly don't think it will take "new and exciting innovations" for that to happen. Plenty of new people are getting into pinball, and they don't need fancy technology to hold their interest. The games haven't changed that much in the last 30 years, and the scene can keep growing even if things don't change much over the next 30.

    I think the "old school" mechanical nature of pinball is what is most captivating to people anyway.

    #15 4 years ago

    Just think about the origin of the term pinball. It has been around for a long time and evolved. I think it will continue to!

    51
    #16 4 years ago

    I'm 14 years old and pinball is my life.

    I don't only play for fun but I've also helped another pinball community with articles and have streamed for them in the past. It's the first hobby I really got invested in and I hope I still enjoy the hobby when I'm older. I also wish good luck to other teenagers out there who have just discovered how great pinball is. :3

    In fact, my entire family discovered pinball because of me!

    image-215.jpgimage-442.jpg

    #17 4 years ago

    Those that are in their late teens now were born post 1997 (scary). So they grew up in an era almost entirely devoid of location pinball. Most would never have been exposed to it at all. The guys of that age I employ have never played one before and don't really show any interest. Now that it's making a bit of a resurgence, the younger kids might have a bit more exposure and might continue it. But the problem is there are very few arcades (compared to the 70's and 80's) seriously siting Pinballs. Many are sited in Bars and barcades which aren't kid friendly.

    #19 4 years ago

    It will continue on but in an ever diminishing scale.

    2015 will be looked back on as the Battle of the Pinball Bulge.

    #20 4 years ago

    I think the hobby isn't going anywhere. It is, however, changing. Like everything else, there is a generational tie. In the last 20 years the home market has soared.
    But, like everything else, it follows generations. There were collectors 20 years ago picking up EMs, and nobody wanted DMDs. They were worthless. But then the kiddies who played them in the arcades grew up and those same machines that they remembered pumping quarters into...well they wanted them for home and had the cash to get them and make them nice.
    And now we are seeing a new generation of machines being built. WoZ and the other independent vendors. Going out on route and exposing a new generation. And in 15 years the cycle will continue.

    #21 4 years ago

    I can tell you that pinball will live on for a while but it will likely die off. There's two factors that are going to kill it off a) lack of exposure to the younger generation which will be hard to motivate them to work in the industry especially when compared to what's out there in the job market with a similar set of skills and what they'd make. And b) price. The price of pinballs will be its undoing. think of the average cost of a new game and think of how long it will take as an investment on site for a operator, factor in time to repair and costs of parts and it's not a wise investment especially with rising prices. Now ask yourself if the younger generation will want to spend $5000 - $9000 on a pinball machine and then factor in the rate of increased prices from manufacturers. Any kid these days growing up that doesn't have nostaglia for the game will quickly figure out that money can be invested into other hobbies or into a house or towards their college tuition.

    Remmeber that the reason pinball thrived in the late &0's and 90's was due to Williams and other companies broken business model of high priced machines followed by half price machines when they had to move inventory. Most operators stopped buying them full price and knew to wait and pick them up on the cheap. While stern is very smart in how they do things, it's also not a recipe for a successful operator to invest in over the long term. This is why we will see a brief resurgence of operators picking up machines (as long as the titled produced are hot and interesting to play) but over time they will see a price threshold where it's not viable and those numbers will dwindle. Home buyers will continue to support those manufacturers but I fear that we will see that trend as well. How many people will drop $6000 - $8000 a year for a machine let alone two? How many collectors will it take to keep an industry alive?

    Like it or not stern will find itself in the same position as Williams one day. It's sad but inevitable, then again all things fade away and we have a industry / hobby with a rich story that will endure at least as collectibles for a long long time. I'd imagine at least that parts companies will be fine though. After all this is pinball and will such a wide variety of parts and so many machines out there they have a good supply of customers in need.

    #22 4 years ago
    Quoted from asay:

    People from my generation are graduating college with $50k+ debt, and then consider themselves LUCKY if they can find a job that pays $35k. Not a lot of room for a $2k++++ toy in that equation.

    Unfortunately, the truth of this statement has much farther reaching implications than pinball. We see it here in the automotive industry currently, and I believe in the next 10~20 years it will also have a huge impact on the housing market, as well as the broader overall economy.

    I feel really bad for you younger guys. College seems to me to be almost a rip-off these days....

    Later,
    EV

    #23 4 years ago

    It's really interesting in a way because out in the Bay Area the job market is thriving and in programming especially most opening job ages can be $85k and up. Then again at what point will companies decide that they can either outsource those jobs and save money or move the jobs to another part of the country with lower pay and lower cost of living? not too many inductrsies these days are self sustaining for employees in search of long term work and a good paying job. Maybe law enforcement, healthcare, anything with a MBA and of course law.

    #24 4 years ago

    85k in the Bay Area is 35k anywhere else. Man it's expensive out there.

    #25 4 years ago

    Pinball 4 Life
    Pinball will ALWAYS be new to MOST people
    as it's really not that popular in the gran scheme of the world.
    Basically, most of the world that knows what toilet paper is an untapped market!

    #26 4 years ago

    I'm 24 and discovered pinball last year through our local league. I've been actively recruiting new players from my group of friends, and we often visit the local barcade on the weekends for some drinks and friendly pinball competition. They're not as serious about it as I am, but they enjoy playing when I'm around to facilitate the idea. I have a feeling my generation was just skipped in some way. All of you older guys with young kids are breeding the next generation of pinball players by having machines at home. Pinball is one of those things that seems to be lost on people unless they're exposed to it on a regular basis, which is why it was almost forgotten at one point. Exposure is everything in today's world.

    #27 4 years ago
    Quoted from anubis2night:

    It's really interesting in a way because out in the Bay Area the job market is thriving and in programming especially most opening job ages can be $85k and up. Then again at what point will companies decide that they can either outsource those jobs and save money or move the jobs to another part of the country with lower pay and lower cost of living? not too many inductrsies these days are self sustaining for employees in search of long term work and a good paying job. Maybe law enforcement, healthcare, anything with a MBA and of course law.

    Not too long. I just scored an open ended contract in Boston. They wanted me full time but said I already had a full time job. They are taking me part time for now. They are paying me less than I would be making in Boston but more than I would make around here. Works out great for both parties.

    #28 4 years ago

    I do suspect the reason for the recent growth will continue for a while (people who grew up with arcades now are at a stage in their life of having a house/money), but once that demographic has been exhausted I don't see a strong way forward for pinball.

    #29 4 years ago
    Quoted from EchoVictor:

    Unfortunately, the truth of this statement has much farther reaching implications than pinball. We see it here in the automotive industry currently, and I believe in the next 10~20 years it will also have a huge impact on the housing market, as well as the broader overall economy.
    I feel really bad for you younger guys. College seems to me to be almost a rip-off these days....
    Later,
    EV

    I've never understood how the auto industry works. Cars aren't an investment. We use them until they're trashed and throw them out. Why do so many new cars need to keep being made and why do there have to be so many dealers? Why would I put down 30k+ on a new car when I could by a sub $10k used car that will keep me on the road for 10+ years? Seems like the focus should shift more towards making cars that are easily repairable. Can't a car, like a pinball machine, essentially be made to run indefinitely as long as replacement parts are available? I don't mean any of that to be personally insulting to anyone in the industry, by the way.

    Housing is generally an investment. I can buy a house and sell it a couple years later and at least roughly come out even, maybe a bit down when realtor fees are factored in. You arguably need a house more than you need a car and there's always the possibility to invest in housing with roommates. Purchasing is generally cheaper than renting and I don't see that changing.

    #30 4 years ago

    Virtual pinball has helped to combat the loss of arcades.

    #31 4 years ago

    I'd like to see competitive pinball online thrive more - I think there is so much potential here to engage younger audiences.

    I've been following the surprisingly extensive coverage of the rise of e-gaming in the NY Times the last year or so (for example: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/31/technology/esports-explosion-brings-opportunity-riches-for-video-gamers.html):

    The contestants were gunning for a big piece of the $11 million in total prize money, the most ever at a games tournament. And the game’s developer, the Valve Corporation, moved another step closer to securing gaming’s legitimacy as a major-league spectator sport

    The roots of e-sports trace to the 1990s with the advent of fighting and shooter games like Street Fighter and Doom. Tournaments in those days were humble affairs, held in crowded hotel ballrooms in front of a few hundred people. Even the winning players often lost money after travel and hotel bills.

    “I was the guy spending $1,000 to go win $800,” said Marcus Graham, an e-sports commentator and former professional gamer who now works for Twitch...

    If pinball could get to 10% of that rise it'd be a huge boost. I see so much potential for taking pinball online to the next level. Huge hats off to the PAPA folks - I had a blast at last year's PAPA and can't wait for this year's - but I also saw so much room to make it a more accessible viewing experience for folks, both in person and online.

    #32 4 years ago
    Quoted from Kineticross:

    I'm 14 years old and pinball is my life.

    This made me chuckle and smile this morning! I love the honesty of your statement. I have to say, I'm 35 years old and pinball is my life. Keep flippin!

    #33 4 years ago
    Quoted from EchoVictor:

    I feel really bad for you younger guys. College seems to me to be almost a rip-off these days....

    This is actually the truth these days. I was watching a news segment that was telling parents that it is better to convince your kids into blue collar work than college these days. I can speak for that, I am 27 and a college degree but still live pay check to pay check while my friends that are in blue collar work and have been since the end of high school are doing much better than me.

    #34 4 years ago

    These kids loved my pins

    Had bunch of HS kids over also loved the pins

    Problem is there are no good pins on location so Kids seldom see them unless they go to a collectors house. image-640.jpg

    11
    #35 4 years ago

    My 5 year old loves pinball. Although we don't have any video games systems in the house yet. so he is stuck with my pinballs for now.
    Magicchiz20150124_165338.jpg20150124_165313.jpg

    #36 4 years ago
    Quoted from Kineticross:

    I'm 14 years old and pinball is my life.
    I don't only play for fun but I've also helped another pinball community with articles and have streamed for them in the past. It's the first hobby I really got invested in and I hope I still enjoy the hobby when I'm older. I also wish good luck to other teenagers out there who have just discovered how great pinball is. :3
    In fact, my entire family discovered pinball because of me!

    image-442.jpg 232 KB

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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^awesome kid!! I can hardly get my kids away from their Xboxes to play some slugfest!

    #37 4 years ago
    Quoted from winteriscoming:

    Just curious, did your dad have the radio stuff the entire time you were growing up? Did you have pins the since your kids were born? I don't know whether or not it matters, but I wonder if being exposed to stuff from birth can instill a stronger, lasting interest.

    I think it probably does make a difference. Neither of my kids cares about pinball, but I didn't get into the hobby until they were around six years old. I'm sure if they had literally grown up with them, there would have been a much stronger connection.

    #38 4 years ago
    Quoted from Magicchiz:

    My 5 year old loves pinball.

    ...and playing the right game!

    #39 4 years ago
    Quoted from anubis2night:

    I can tell you that pinball will live on for a while but it will likely die off.

    Unfortunately I have to agree.Pinball has been on life support since the 80s.There will always be fans and people in the hobby.It will have its niche.But it will never be what it was in the 70s.

    Think about it, the height of pinball was 40 years ago.Its amazing its hung on this long.

    #40 4 years ago

    I'm 47 and have loved pinball since the early 1970s. The only way I'm going to sell my pinball machines is when I'm dead. That being said I'm not sure if today's youth have that passion as I do. I would hope my son will continue to enjoy my pinball machines and playing pinball long after I am not around.

    I think pinball will face some coming challenges years from now. I believe there will still be pinball in the future but probably not as big as it is today. Look at 40-50 years ago and compare it to the size today. Now go 40-50 years from today and think what the size of pinball will be.

    #41 4 years ago

    It is hard to know what the future holds

    A month ago, I went for a day drive to a tourist area, lots of cafes, restaurants, antiques and arty stuff.
    One place I had a look at was a reto store, full of toys an stuff from the 60s 70s and 80s
    The place was full of customers who were aged in their late 30s and 40s
    The place seemed to be doing good trade

    #42 4 years ago
    Quoted from petes80smame:

    not sure if today's youth have that passion

    Even if they had all the passion in the world it might still be hard to a)find a place to play b)find a game to buy c)have the patience and wherewithal to repair a home game.

    Speaking of buying how many kids under 18 years of age has 8K for a NIB anything.

    #43 4 years ago

    Pinballs is a niche market and hobby. You don't have to be the most popular thing on the planet to still be around. Look at baseball. The average fan is ~56 years old from a report I heard several weeks ago. The cycle is what will be the most important. How many younger enthusiasts need to come in each year to sustain everything?

    New pins are expensive and going up too quickly to appeal to ops. That might be a broken model though as kids should not be the main target (through arcades at the minigolf facility). The real target should be teens and young adults, while throwing a bone theme wise to the 30+ population as often as needed for themes. You have to keep the full age range involved because they each help support things. Younger players ensure many years of playing, young adults (20-40) will be mopping up the $1k-$5k machines, 40+ will have the free cash to purchase the higher end machines.

    Now the good news. Literally every game ever made can be saved and or restored if there is a good example of the needed item. Cabinets are documented and can be remade. Playfields can be scanned and new files generated on the computer to remake them. Unique parts (like ramps) can be remade with one good example being 3d scanned or molded from. The best part?! This can all be done at the hobby level if needed. The tools are out there, and they are affordable. An industrial base is needed in some sort for NIB machines, unless you like $10k+ runs of 25. But, the aftermarket hobby level support can keep these machines going as long as that support exists.

    #44 4 years ago

    I'd love to think it will continue, but I highly doubt it. The 20 somethings and younger are complete technophiles and regardless of the innovation in pinball, the youth will spend most of their time in the coming VR/AR worlds of their choosing. This is going to happen sooner than you think.

    #45 4 years ago

    You can thank Stern for the last 15 years of helping keep pinball alive. Gary Stern was the only guy that wanted to build pinball machines 15 years ago. The operators and manufactures will always help the longevity of pinball. Location pinball has been improving with a slew of new operators that actually care about the game. Hopefully manufacturers can keep making themes that appeal to the public and operators keep buying them or it will die. Pinball will become expensive boutique builds hoarded in collectors houses and Judge Dredd will be a $14,000 game.

    #46 4 years ago
    Quoted from desertT1:

    Pinballs is a niche market and hobby. You don't have to be the most popular thing on the planet to still be around. Look at baseball. The average fan is ~56 years old from a report I heard several weeks ago. The cycle is what will be the most important. How many younger enthusiasts need to come in each year to sustain everything?

    There are millions of kids that actually play baseball and not just some old dudes on their couch watching MLB. Baseball is huge.

    -4
    #47 4 years ago
    Quoted from westofrome:

    I'd like to see competitive pinball online thrive more - I think there is so much potential here to engage younger audiences.

    Tournament pinball is a TERRIBLE way to introduce pinball to a new generation.

    How long does the average tournament take? 8hrs? 3 days?No "millenials" are gonna have that kind of patience/attention span.

    No extra balls ,no specials, no matches,no explosions........boring.

    Pinball at its best can't compete with a 50" flat screen blowing up bad guys while you chat and join forces with people all over the world.No way.

    Pinballs got a couple of options.Go all the way back to making it a gambling device.Scores ,goals, skill=money.

    bring back P2K platform.....so you can blow stuff up with a pinball shot.

    #48 4 years ago
    Quoted from jackofdiamonds:

    bring back P2K platform.....so you can blow stuff up with a pinball shot.

    Multimorphic is trying to bring pinball into the present, but I still don't think they will gain much traction with the millenial crowd. That generation has trouble taking their eyes off their phones long enough to actually experience things in the real world.

    #49 4 years ago
    Quoted from jackofdiamonds:

    How long does the average tournament take? 8hrs? 3 days?No "millenials" are gonna have that kind of patience/attention span.

    I have a feeling he meant more like local tournaments that take an hour or so, almost like league night. Just do a Friday night tourney at the local barcade for like $25 worth of drinks and my friends would be there - even the non-pinheads.

    #50 4 years ago
    Quoted from Honch:

    the youth will spend most of their time in the VR/AR worlds of their choosing

    Augmented Reality Pinball could be so awesome! Imagine having a whitewood with flippers and maybe a couple ramps, kickout holes, vuks, etc. The AR headset fills in the theme, makes inserts appear, and virtual targets. You play at an actual machine, hit a real ball around and have some actual stuff to hit with the ball, but also a lot of virtual stuff. Stuff could come flying out off the playfield for cool effects.

    Multimorphic P3 is the closest to this concept at the moment.

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