LIVE! Dimple quest. The ultimate test. AS update

Well, sort of live, lol.
Five machines,
Five virgin under-apron surfaces.
Balls will be dropped,
Craters will be made,
Questions WILL be answered!

By way of disclaimer, my position going into this was that I firmly believe PFs have always dimpled, and that current dimple anxiety levels are due to the higher number of first time NIB buyers in the hobby. But, I am a man of science and am willing to be proven wrong if the data so reveals.

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Before..

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IMG20170203110616 (resized).jpg
IMG20170203110705 (resized).jpg
IMG20170203110645 (resized).jpg

Post last edited 6 years ago.

#2 7 years ago

MJH

TimeBandit

Results

IMG20170203112324 (resized).jpg

IMG20170203112227 (resized).jpg

IMG20170203112239 (resized).jpg

IMG20170203112208 (resized).jpg

#3 7 years ago

SMK

TheLaw

Pinside+ Addict

FINALLY! What's the height...2 feet? Non of that meter shit please

#4 7 years ago

MJH

TimeBandit

Here's an interesting point right from the starting grid..TronLE looks orange peel all the way through under the apron.
Have they tried "pre-pounding" the playfield in an attempt to deflect crater anxiety?

IMG20170203110952 (resized).jpg

#5 7 years ago

RYC

FalconPunch

Pinside member

Melbourne

9y 106K 1,816

Whenever I buy a machine now I'm going to have to ask for under apron dimple pictures

#6 7 years ago

MJH

TimeBandit

Quoted from TheLaw:
FINALLY! What's the height...2 feet? Non of that meter shit please

Well, it's difficult for me to get my feet up there to check, but I'm thinking 300-400mm.

#7 7 years ago

TSH

Travish

Pinside member

Greensboro, NC

11y 98,800 3,348 6

Quoted from TheLaw:
FINALLY! What's the height...2 feet? Non of that meter shit please

I think 2' is to far. No ball on a game is ever going to get the momentum of being dropped 2'.

#8 7 years ago

JON

J85M

Hot Mods

Warrington

12y 147K 10,465 32

Never thought I would watch another dude drop his balls in front of me LIVE, but Pinside always surprises me, let the ball dropping commence

#9 7 years ago

MJH

TimeBandit

Quoted from Travish:
I think 2' is to far. No ball on a game is ever going to get the momentum of being dropped 2'.

We're going for comparison. As long as it's consistent it doesn't matter.

#10 7 years ago

SMK

TheLaw

Pinside+ Addict

Quoted from FalconPunch:
Whenever I buy a machine now I'm going to have to ask for under apron dimple pictures

It's only funny before it becomes true!

Quoted from Travish:
I think 2' is to far. No ball on a game is ever going to get the momentum of being dropped 2'.

Flipper can bang it pretty hard no worries, I'm sure there are 400 people that can post aboot all the science and equations of it all whether we care to hear it or not
EDIT; I mean we all don't want DimpleGate 2.0 next year and have to go through it all again (just kidding, we obviously will for some reason).

#11 7 years ago

MEH

MotorCityMatt

Pinside member

Canton, MI

10y 55,300 1,193 9

Let's see some youtube vid...you slacker!

#12 7 years ago

MJH

TimeBandit

Opening post edited with "before" pics.

#13 7 years ago

MJH

TimeBandit

Results post edited with pics.

#14 7 years ago

HAZ

hank527

Pinside+ Addict

13y 128K 5,422 248

Following this.

#15 7 years ago

JRK

jrivelli

TrueColor Protectors

Milwaukie, OR

11y 89,650 4,625 10 20

Quoted from Travish:
I think 2' is to far. No ball on a game is ever going to get the momentum of being dropped 2'.

Height is irrelevant. If all consistent then we are good. Balls can "drop" from just a few inches but coming off a post with a ton of speed, for example.

#16 7 years ago

SMK

TheLaw

Pinside+ Addict

thoia (resized).jpg

#17 7 years ago

MEH

MotorCityMatt

Pinside member

Canton, MI

10y 55,300 1,193 9

No vid...I guess Trump is right.

#18 7 years ago

MJH

TimeBandit

The write-up..

Machines..

Tommy
TronLE
TSPP
LOTRLE
ST Pro
(Shadow added later)

Aim: To determine variation in dimpling of playfields from various eras of production.

Method: A standard pinball was dropped from a standing start at a height of 300mm above a virgin area of playfield onto each of the machines listed. The size and qualities of the resulting dimples were measured.

Qualititave results first, or how I thought about the results as they appeared..
Strongest reaction from me was that I didn't believe the TSPP result and had to do it again.
All machines dimpled.
The dimples do appear to be different.(debunked by measuring)
The size varies.(nope, optical illusion)
The edge quality varies.(Yes)

Quantitative results.. (will measure the dimples with calipers)..

Ready for this..?

They are all the same size. Between 4.08mm and 4.12mm.
(Shadow was 4.19mm, but I have to think that the margin of error here has to be maybe +- 0.2mm).

#19 7 years ago

hool10

Pinside member

10y 69,050 701 2

Worst playfield quality ever!

Comicbookguy (resized).png

-2

#20 7 years ago

SMK

TheLaw

Pinside+ Addict

Do you have any quality PF to test and not this Data East crap

#21 7 years ago

F X

Coyote

Pinside member

9y 107K 8,985

You needed proof?

#22 7 years ago

WOW

GotAQuestion

Inactive member

7y 47,800 641

So... I once accidentally dropped a ball from about a foot or so onto my WoZ while putting the balls back in the game. This type of test isn't *totally* unrealistic.

Luckily it doesn't affect play and is blended in now more or less

#23 7 years ago

MJH

TimeBandit

Quoted from Coyote:
You needed proof?

No, I didn't. I am a happy camper and understand that PFs have always dimpled. I am doing this purely for entertainment value, and to possibly alleviate some of the anxiety amongst the young-un's.

#24 7 years ago

F X

Coyote

Pinside member

9y 107K 8,985

Aaah... okay..

#25 7 years ago

SMK

TheLaw

Pinside+ Addict

Quoted from Coyote:
You needed proof?

You been out of town for awHile or something?

#26 7 years ago

MJH

TimeBandit

Results are in the results post..

Dimple size 4.08 - 4.12mm. For all of them. For the purposes of this test, they are the same size.

BUT, Something IS going on. There are optical effects involved. I will admit, at first look they do appear different, and at this point I am going with the hypothesis that the clear affects the edge quality of the dimple and hence its apparent severity.

#27 7 years ago

MJH

TimeBandit

Have a look at ST and TSPP. You can see the smaller associated bounce dimple. It's actually quite beautiful, like looking at Jupiter and moons or something.

#28 7 years ago

LKD

Luckydogg420

Pinside member

Kitchener, ON

11y 115K 5,859 14

So the only people that can complain about a dimpled Playfield are the ones that haven't played their game enough.

#29 7 years ago

???

robm

Pinside member

Townsville City

12y 45,050 623

Congrats on taking a rational, science and evidence based approach to an issue!

Greater replication will increase the confidence in the results.

It would also be good to see a WPC playfield in the mix. Another variable could be a machine with a new playfield that has not cured for very long

#30 7 years ago

SED

sed6

Inactive member

Oklahoma City, OK

10y 67,800 775 2 7

Quoted from Travish:
I think 2' is to far. No ball on a game is ever going to get the momentum of being dropped 2'.

I'm compelled to disagree. Gravity accelerates at 1g so from 2' up a ball takes a leisurely .35 seconds to hit the PF. I can flip a ball around an orbit and back to the flipper on some games in about that time. That longer distance in the same amount of time means my flipped ball is traveling faster (and therefore accelerated faster) than a dropped ball. If anything 2' up represents the energy in a vigorous plunge, not good flip. Great effort and info by the OP though!!!

OP
Quoted from TimeBandit:
We're going for comparison. As long as it's consistent it doesn't matter.

Agreed.

Post last edited 7 years ago: “cnat spele”

#31 7 years ago

MJH

TimeBandit

I just did my Shadow again at the same standard. 4.19mm dimple. So, effectively the same.

#32 7 years ago

MJH

TimeBandit

Quoted from sed6:
I'm compelled to disagree. Gravity accelerates at 1g so from 2' up a ball takes a leisurely .35 seconds to hit the PF. I can flip a ball around an orbit and back to the flipper on some games in about that time. That longer distance in the same amount of time means my flipped ball is traveling faster (and therefore accelerated faster) than a dropped ball. If anything 2' up represents the energy in a vigorous plunge, not good flip. Great effort and info by the OP though!!!

Error here is that you have to apply vectors to the force. Flipper force is parallel to the PF surface.

#33 7 years ago

MJH

TimeBandit

Lighting plays a MASSIVE part in the observation of dimples. Across the universe of machine owners I am firmly convinced that a lot of the disagreements stem from non standardised viewing conditions.

2 months later

#34 6 years ago

MJH

TimeBandit

Just an update for everyone getting gushy over AS clear and how thick it is and how the PF is dimpling less. Well, no, it's not. Same test on my AS as all the others. Same result. The dimples do not change. What changes are the factors at play altering your perception of those dimples. You see less dimples on AS because the artwork is sympathetic to the cause of making the dimples difficult to see.

#35 6 years ago

LFS

pinballaddicted

Pinside member

9y 123K 4,411 81

Hey mate. Thanks very much for taking the time to do the test. I noticed in other threads that you are putting playfield protectors on all your machines. We have started doing this also. Do you think that the playfield still dimples under the protector?

#36 6 years ago

MJH

TimeBandit