(Topic ID: 180293)

LIVE! Dimple quest. The ultimate test. AS update


By TimeBandit

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 46 posts
  • 23 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Apex
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

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    Topic poll

    “Describe yourself”

    • A dimpleton 4 votes
      25%
    • Albus Dimpledore 4 votes
      25%
    • Shirley Dimple 5 votes
      31%
    • I drink a lot of Dimple 9 votes
      56%

    (Multiple choice - 16 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

    Topic Gallery

    There have been 13 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

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    18
    #1 2 years ago

    Well, sort of live, lol.
    Five machines,
    Five virgin under-apron surfaces.
    Balls will be dropped,
    Craters will be made,
    Questions WILL be answered!

    By way of disclaimer, my position going into this was that I firmly believe PFs have always dimpled, and that current dimple anxiety levels are due to the higher number of first time NIB buyers in the hobby. But, I am a man of science and am willing to be proven wrong if the data so reveals.

    IMG20170203110036 (resized).jpg

    Before..

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    #2 2 years ago

    Results

    IMG20170203112324 (resized).jpg

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    IMG20170203112208 (resized).jpg

    #3 2 years ago

    FINALLY! What's the height...2 feet? Non of that meter shit please

    #4 2 years ago

    Here's an interesting point right from the starting grid..TronLE looks orange peel all the way through under the apron.
    Have they tried "pre-pounding" the playfield in an attempt to deflect crater anxiety?

    IMG20170203110952 (resized).jpg

    #5 2 years ago

    Whenever I buy a machine now I'm going to have to ask for under apron dimple pictures

    #6 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    FINALLY! What's the height...2 feet? Non of that meter shit please

    Well, it's difficult for me to get my feet up there to check, but I'm thinking 300-400mm.

    #7 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    FINALLY! What's the height...2 feet? Non of that meter shit please

    I think 2' is to far. No ball on a game is ever going to get the momentum of being dropped 2'.

    #8 2 years ago

    Never thought I would watch another dude drop his balls in front of me LIVE, but Pinside always surprises me, let the ball dropping commence

    #9 2 years ago
    Quoted from Travish:

    I think 2' is to far. No ball on a game is ever going to get the momentum of being dropped 2'.

    We're going for comparison. As long as it's consistent it doesn't matter.

    #10 2 years ago
    Quoted from FalconPunch:

    Whenever I buy a machine now I'm going to have to ask for under apron dimple pictures

    It's only funny before it becomes true!

    Quoted from Travish:

    I think 2' is to far. No ball on a game is ever going to get the momentum of being dropped 2'.

    Flipper can bang it pretty hard no worries, I'm sure there are 400 people that can post aboot all the science and equations of it all whether we care to hear it or not
    EDIT; I mean we all don't want DimpleGate 2.0 next year and have to go through it all again (just kidding, we obviously will for some reason).

    #11 2 years ago

    Let's see some youtube vid...you slacker!

    #12 2 years ago

    Opening post edited with "before" pics.

    #14 2 years ago

    Following this.

    #15 2 years ago
    Quoted from Travish:

    I think 2' is to far. No ball on a game is ever going to get the momentum of being dropped 2'.

    Height is irrelevant. If all consistent then we are good. Balls can "drop" from just a few inches but coming off a post with a ton of speed, for example.

    #16 2 years ago

    thoia (resized).jpg

    #17 2 years ago

    No vid...I guess Trump is right.

    #18 2 years ago

    The write-up..

    Machines..

    Tommy
    TronLE
    TSPP
    LOTRLE
    ST Pro
    (Shadow added later)

    Aim: To determine variation in dimpling of playfields from various eras of production.

    Method: A standard pinball was dropped from a standing start at a height of 300mm above a virgin area of playfield onto each of the machines listed. The size and qualities of the resulting dimples were measured.

    Qualititave results first, or how I thought about the results as they appeared..
    Strongest reaction from me was that I didn't believe the TSPP result and had to do it again.
    All machines dimpled.
    The dimples do appear to be different.(debunked by measuring)
    The size varies.(nope, optical illusion)
    The edge quality varies.(Yes)

    Quantitative results.. (will measure the dimples with calipers)..

    Ready for this..?

    They are all the same size. Between 4.08mm and 4.12mm.
    (Shadow was 4.19mm, but I have to think that the margin of error here has to be maybe +- 0.2mm).

    #19 2 years ago

    Worst playfield quality ever!

    Comicbookguy (resized).png

    -2
    #20 2 years ago

    Do you have any quality PF to test and not this Data East crap

    #21 2 years ago

    You needed proof?

    #22 2 years ago

    So... I once accidentally dropped a ball from about a foot or so onto my WoZ while putting the balls back in the game. This type of test isn't *totally* unrealistic.

    Luckily it doesn't affect play and is blended in now more or less

    #23 2 years ago
    Quoted from Coyote:

    You needed proof?

    No, I didn't. I am a happy camper and understand that PFs have always dimpled. I am doing this purely for entertainment value, and to possibly alleviate some of the anxiety amongst the young-un's.

    #24 2 years ago

    Aaah... okay..

    #25 2 years ago
    Quoted from Coyote:

    You needed proof?

    You been out of town for awHile or something?

    #26 2 years ago

    Results are in the results post..

    Dimple size 4.08 - 4.12mm. For all of them. For the purposes of this test, they are the same size.

    BUT, Something IS going on. There are optical effects involved. I will admit, at first look they do appear different, and at this point I am going with the hypothesis that the clear affects the edge quality of the dimple and hence its apparent severity.

    #27 2 years ago

    Have a look at ST and TSPP. You can see the smaller associated bounce dimple. It's actually quite beautiful, like looking at Jupiter and moons or something.

    #28 2 years ago

    So the only people that can complain about a dimpled Playfield are the ones that haven't played their game enough.

    #29 2 years ago

    Congrats on taking a rational, science and evidence based approach to an issue!

    Greater replication will increase the confidence in the results.

    It would also be good to see a WPC playfield in the mix. Another variable could be a machine with a new playfield that has not cured for very long

    #30 2 years ago
    Quoted from Travish:

    I think 2' is to far. No ball on a game is ever going to get the momentum of being dropped 2'.

    I'm compelled to disagree. Gravity accelerates at 1g so from 2' up a ball takes a leisurely .35 seconds to hit the PF. I can flip a ball around an orbit and back to the flipper on some games in about that time. That longer distance in the same amount of time means my flipped ball is traveling faster (and therefore accelerated faster) than a dropped ball. If anything 2' up represents the energy in a vigorous plunge, not good flip. Great effort and info by the OP though!!!

    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    We're going for comparison. As long as it's consistent it doesn't matter.

    Agreed.

    #31 2 years ago

    I just did my Shadow again at the same standard. 4.19mm dimple. So, effectively the same.

    #32 2 years ago
    Quoted from sed6:

    I'm compelled to disagree. Gravity accelerates at 1g so from 2' up a ball takes a leisurely .35 seconds to hit the PF. I can flip a ball around an orbit and back to the flipper on some games in about that time. That longer distance in the same amount of time means my flipped ball is traveling faster (and therefore accelerated faster) than a dropped ball. If anything 2' up represents the energy in a vigorous plunge, not good flip. Great effort and info by the OP though!!!

    Error here is that you have to apply vectors to the force. Flipper force is parallel to the PF surface.

    #33 2 years ago

    Lighting plays a MASSIVE part in the observation of dimples. Across the universe of machine owners I am firmly convinced that a lot of the disagreements stem from non standardised viewing conditions.

    2 months later
    #34 1 year ago

    Just an update for everyone getting gushy over AS clear and how thick it is and how the PF is dimpling less. Well, no, it's not. Same test on my AS as all the others. Same result. The dimples do not change. What changes are the factors at play altering your perception of those dimples. You see less dimples on AS because the artwork is sympathetic to the cause of making the dimples difficult to see.

    #35 1 year ago

    Hey mate. Thanks very much for taking the time to do the test. I noticed in other threads that you are putting playfield protectors on all your machines. We have started doing this also. Do you think that the playfield still dimples under the protector?

    #36 1 year ago
    Quoted from pinballaddicted:

    noticed in other threads that you are putting playfield protectors on all your machines.

    No that's not me. I say go for it. They probably work, as they will absorb force for sure. Just an effort/reward equation for me that doesn't pay off.

    #37 1 year ago

    Note to self: Never buy one of Mike's used games as I wont be able to sleep knowing there is a dimple under the apron.

    #38 1 year ago
    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    No that's not me. I say go for it. They probably work, as they will absorb force for sure. Just an effort/reward equation for me that doesn't pay off.

    Thanks for the reply!

    Cheers

    Con

    #39 1 year ago
    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    Across the universe ... I am firmly convinced that a lot of the disagreements stem from non standardised viewing conditions.

    Pretty much summarizes most disagreements between humans, actually.

    4 months later
    #40 1 year ago

    I comment on this just to get it to the top of the threads. Every discussion/argument on dimpling can stop now. If one starts, just reference this experiment. Well done

    #41 1 year ago

    Great effort here but I don't know if this is truly representative of finding the real answer. I own an inspection company and this is what I do for a living, even though hardness testing isn't my expertise. If you're only dropping it from a few feet, you almost always will get superficial dimples because you aren't testing to the maximum force. Lots of things have been thrown around from moisture, to clearcoat, to different wood, with anyone knowing the real issue. So if a playfield had more moisture in it, all the layers were softer (I'm not a wood expert by any means) then it may have a deeper dimple if applying max force, compared to an older, possibly more "dried out" play field. All games get dimples, but people are complaining about the depth of dimples, and theoretically you would either need a true hardness tester (rebound device), or apply max force (whatever that may be, but probably more than a few feet) to see the real difference, other than just superficial dimples. I also don't think the issue is as bad as some people make it out to be, but I have seen it for myself, otherwise I would've blown it off to people being over anal about their games. I have a really advanced hardness tester at my office that I will grab today and take some readings tonight to get some accurate data. I have a LOTRLE which has a perfect playfield, and a newer MMR which I can compare, but unfortunately don't have any of the newer sterns to compare to. I do know of one locally which I think I can get to though, but I will post back with what I find.

    #42 1 year ago

    Not all the way finished, but using a rebound tester, and configuring for somewhere between hardwood and bronze, I got some interesting results. The problem is trying to get a reading through the clear, which is obviously changing the hardness of the material.

    Average of 5 readings just above the valley on the shooter lane. HB is the unit of measurement, but it a complicated answer as to what the scale exactly is.

    MMR: 119 HB

    LOTRLE: 178 HB

    TSPP: 138 HB (mini playfield was 153 HB)

    TH: 163 HB

    WOZ: 184 HB

    I will do a GB and a MET On my way back from dinner and will update the results.

    Updated list with more games:

    MET: 157 HB

    GB PRO: 92-104 HB (92 was at shooter lane, 104 was highest result elsewhere on the untouched portions of the playfield, 3 ghosted inserts)

    NGG: 181 HB

    TOM: 170 HB

    AFM: 177 HB

    TRON: 155 HB

    GB PRE: 133 HB

    ST PRE: 161 HB

    Updated: With the updated results, especially with the ghosted one, it's pretty clear whatever they are doing with the wood has an effect. I checked the GB PRO all over, just to make sure I wasn't getting an erroneous reading. There was also a visible difference between the softer games and the harder games as far as playfield quality and condition. I don't really know what the fix is or what any of this really means as far as a solution, but at least their is verifiable data from a calibrated test device that we can go off. Also, we do rent this gear out, so stern is more than welcome to grab some equipment for their QC shop if so desired.

    So far I was really surprised by the vast differences in hardness, as a typical steel pinball would be in the 450 HB range the way the unit is configured. Keep in mind, these were the average of 5 readings from the same spot (I did some reference checks around the playfield and all results were within 5%). I always thought my MMR had some funky looking dimples, but nothing out of hand. I do Now know why my LOTR has always looked perfect, even after hundreds of plays, and it has something to with it being "harder" would be my guess. Either way, take what you will from the data, but it's not everyday you can use a $10k hardness tester for a god damn pinball playfield (I think I crossed a line of being "too into" the hobby and need to step back. Haha)

    #43 1 year ago

    these dimples are photoshopped

    2 weeks later
    #44 1 year ago

    isn't a lot of the 'dimple awareness' due to the new type of lighting we are using on our games now? I think dimples stand out way more with led lighting than they ever did with incandescents.

    #45 1 year ago
    Quoted from fusion:

    isn't a lot of the 'dimple awareness' due to the new type of lighting we are using on our games now? I think dimples stand out way more with led lighting than they ever did with incandescents.

    In a word, no.

    I have Coin Taker premium high intensity LEDs in all of my "pre-LED" Stern pins all the way back to TSPP, POTC, & HRC. There is a visible difference in the dimpling of the playfields. And the difference has clearly been shown in the science presented above.

    #46 1 year ago

    Do you know the year of the tested Metallica? Curious if it was an early or LED run.

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