(Topic ID: 172175)

Little Joe, Bally 1972: Power Issue

By Gumboyaya

7 years ago


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  • Latest reply 7 years ago by Gumboyaya
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#1 7 years ago

When I last powered up the machine and pushed start, the GI came on very bright for a moment and then the machine went dead. After lifting the playfield, It smelled like a burnt coil though none looked worse than before. The transformer seems to check out and the fuses seem fine. Turning it on and hitting start now does "nothing".

Schematic: http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1460/Bally_1972_Little_Joe_Schematic_Diagram_pages_concatenated_and_bleached.pdf

Background: Machine sat unused in sellers basement for 18 years. Mostly minor fixes to get it running and a lot of cleaning. Playfield stripped, cleaned, waxed plus new rubbers, bulbs, flipper rebuilds and plastic insert replacements. Machine ran fine after that for a few days.

#2 7 years ago

A short between 6 V and 50 V, the reason for the very bright lights.
A lot of illuminated bulbs will be toasted.
Check carefully the wires on the playfield, especially where it makes sharp turns.
Difficult one to solve I think.

#3 7 years ago
Quoted from Gumboyaya:

Machine ran fine after that for a few days.

Yeah, they usually will, until it gets rattled, shook, jostled, then things flex, and OH, Goody, the problem is back!

Quoted from wizardblom:

especially where it makes sharp turns.

yup, chk all the places where wires bend around metal.
and chk for any trash that may have fallen onto connections.

#4 7 years ago

Thanks so much for your replies folks!

What was said makes a lot of sense. I manipulated many lamp sockets to replace inserts, I think that is where I will start the search. I also did some soldering/desoldering so it's possible solder may have fallen onto a connection.

Update: I do have 2 blown fuses; 10A on a 50V leg and 15A on the 6V leg. Don't know if my original test was flawed or they blew subsequently, but the 10A is obviously smoked and there is no way I could have missed that.

I am going to invest in some circuit breakers and alligator clips before I test any of my findings, so it may be a while before I update.

#5 7 years ago

Hi Gumboyaya
I like to read here http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair
I like to read here http://www.pinrepair.com/ scroll down to "1930s to 1978 EM ..." http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm there is plenty of good stuff to read.

Here http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#fuses read the text and scroll down to the 3rd picture - the cause of a short. He also mentions (above): 6.3 volt backbox or playfield lighting: "a BULB DIES AND CREATES A SHORT" --- You may have to take-out EVERY bulb, greetings Rolf

#6 7 years ago

Hi Rolf,
Thank you very much, there is some fantastic information in those links. Very helpful, thanks.
Cheers

#7 7 years ago

Still waiting for circuit breakers until I can test again, but:

I found the lock coil looking burnt. It reads 12.5 ohms where all the other G-31-1800 coils read around 40 ohms. I think this may explain the burnt coil smell I noticed after the event.

Does this sound more like a symptom than a cause? Should I continue to be finding and fixing a short before I replace the coil? Or should I replace the coil and see if that fixes the issue? If the issue is a short and is fixed, will the game power-up with a lock coil in that condition?

#8 7 years ago

game shud work with the burned coil, if it is firing at start up.
it will not hurt to replace the coil. you can do that first, or later.
I would repair each item you identify, at the time you find it.

#9 7 years ago

Hi Gumboyaya
Dr_of_Style said it. An "add-on": I looked-up the Lock-Relay-Coil at "E-9" in the ipdb-schematics - I read: Should have 105 Ohms - AND: It should be a "G-33-2800 Coil" or maybe "G-38-2880 ?" BUT NOT: "G-31-1800". Maybe a preowner mounted a wrong coil ?

You well can test the functionality of the pin NOT having the lights turned on - You simply may take-out the fuses for the 6VAC-Circuitry (take care of the 6VAC-problems later).

A fuse is a feature as a lamp or a relay or a stepper --- "fuse-specific":It is an "ONE-Time consumer" - So it is a bit costly to use up like 20 to 50 fuses (when testing).

When You have a short in the pin and the fuse for 50VAC blows right away "when toggling-on" or "when pressing the Replay-Button": Trouble-Shooting is not easy - there are some "tricks" we can try - like "unplugging the connecting Jones-Plugs Playfield to Backbox, Playfield to Cabinet" OR: manipulative have the Tilt-Switch open (or the Game-Over-Switch or the Reset-Relay Switch or the Delay-Relay-Switch) - so (at least) some of the stuff CANNOT have connection (as the Switch feeding is manipulative-open). So together with the information "fuse blows (or fuse NOW does not blow)" we can clue and eliminate some possible places (possible faulty coils).

What do You want to do next ? Greetings Rolf

#10 7 years ago

Thank you Dr. and Rolf!

Yes Rolf, you are correct about that coil. Thank you for finding that.
I really like the idea of eliminating the 6VAC and unplugging Jones-plugs to help isolate the problem(s). Thank you for that, I will use that in my troubleshooting.

I have gone through all the lamp circuits and adjusted any lamps that may have been touching or close to touching any wire. I received the circuit breakers but am still waiting for the alligator clips. I'm not going to power the machine to test until I have the temporary circuit breakers setup, I don't want to waste fuses. I will update once I get further into the troubleshooting, Thanks again for all the help!
Gumbo

#11 7 years ago

Hi Gumbo
Your pin is a Bally Pin. SteveFury made an excellent topic: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-circuits-basics-to-not-so-basic - in the beginning it is theory for every manufacturer - from post-41 on he gets more into "Gottlieb specific stuff". It is good for Gottliebs - when YOU read - keep in mind: Williams and Bally have an other way to start a game - are completely "other" when it comes to stepping to next player / next ball.

Interesting for You - "Circuit Breaker", his post-25: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-circuits-basics-to-not-so-basic#post-3141452 --- the last JPG in the post shows a nice way to have a handy "Circuit Breaker".

A short on the playfield ? I recall (bottom of) post-5 - I advice: Take EVERY bulb out - a bulb can be dead - BUT makes (beeing dead) a SHORT. Want to think of going to LED ? Want to consider: #47 bulbs are not so bright --- but they do NOT heat up as much as #44 bulbs.

Keep in mind: Your pin uses 110VAC in some places - DANGER, the coils and steppers are operated by 50VAC - DANGER. Greetings Rolf

#12 7 years ago

Hi Rolf,
Thank you very much for your reply.
Thanks for the link. I had already marked that link as a favorite, I think that is where I got the idea for circuit breakers instead of fuses for trouble shooting. I took your advice on the #47 bulbs and got them to replace all the blown #44's I certainly have. Thank you for that.

With my new circuit breakers installed, neither the 6Volt (15Amp) or 50Volt (10Amp) breakers are tripping. The machine starts and games can be played although all playfield lights are out (likely all blown bulbs). The backbox does light up properly, but I do not believe is functioning correctly. All lights in backbox turn off when a game is started. Once ball 1 is launched and activates a rollover, the lights come on and stay on for the duration of them game. I doubt it's a related problem, but figured I'd mention it.

Checking the playfield light circuits, I find I have 50Volts on those 6Volt circuits. It sounds like wizardblom was correct, there must be a short between the 6Volt and 50Volt circuits. I checked the transformer and the 6V lug is providing 6V, actually 6.7V. I have not yet been able to find the short. I'm thinking maybe I should start desoldering playfield light connections to try to isolate the short.

As always, any thoughts or ideas are very welcome and appreciated.

Thanks again for the help,
Gumbo

#13 7 years ago

Update: My meter readings may be wrong.

What should I be using as "ground"?

I was using the bare wire stapled to the underside of the playfield. When I switch it to the common lug on the transformer, my readings change. With the black meter wire on the common lug of the transformer, I am reading 50V (actually closer to 60V) on that bare wire I was previously using as "ground".

#14 7 years ago

if you are gonna cut wires, use the 50-50 percent thing, cut in middle of area and measure.
that divides area in half, then move closer to source by another 50%
narrows it down quicker.
maybe use the RETURN lug on transformer for black wire. not ground, it is return. (AC)
dont have that game, but wouls suspect transformer has return, and 2 or 3 hot leads that go to fuses.

#15 7 years ago

Thank you.
Yes, I have 3 lugs used on the transformer. One is ~6V, one ~60V and the third labeled common (I assume that is return).
Using the common lug to connect the black lead of the meter and the red probe of the meter on the bare wire which is common to all playfield lighting, I get ~60V. So now I'm guessing the 60V short is with the bare wire and not the 6v circuit?

#16 7 years ago

Clearly I am confused here. I was assuming the common bare wire was the return and the insulated wires to the bulb fixtures were the hot leads. Do I have that backwards?

The bare wire is connected at 3 points to a blue wire coming out of a bundle. I desoldered the blue wires. The bare wire now reads 13V and the disconnected blue wires read 60V. So I'm guessing my 60V short is with that blue wire and is not on the playfield.

It appears that blue wire starts at one of the two 6V 15Amp fuses holders. Without a fuse installed I am reading 60V at that fuse holder on the side where that blue wire connects.

I connected one end of a circuit breaker to the other side of the fuse holder (hot side) and the other lead from the breaker to that bare wire. That bare wire now reads ~6V. I replaced a couple GI bulbs and they are working properly.

I'm thinking I should unsolder that blue wire from the other side of the fuse holder and replace it with a new wire that connects to the bare wire. Basically replacing that blue wire that is obviously shorted with 60V.

By replacing the shorted wire instead of fixing it, would that be considered sloppy work? I like to fix things right, but would also rather play this machine rather than continue to pull my hair out over this short.

#17 7 years ago

You have a good one there. can you post a couple pics of the areas you are workin on? and the transformer/fuse holder.
that may help here.
yes, it seems you do have a nasty short, somewhere.
If you are not gonna sell it as a "GEM", any fix is acceptable. i would document it though.
If you unplug the play field and back box jones plugs, do you still have the short?

#18 7 years ago

I doubt I would ever sell this machine, it's a dynamite EM. This machine and my WH20 are top of my keeper list. Your certainly right about documenting it, thanks.

I could not get the playfield jones plugs off without applying more force than I am comfortable with. I doubt they have ever been removed in the last 44 years, I don't want to break them. I didn't bother with the back box since those lights were/are working, I believe they are fed by the other 6V circuit.

Will try to take some pics.

#19 7 years ago

Transformer: Red wire on first lug is ~60V, 3rd lug is common and 4th lug is ~6V

Fuse Block: First fuse is 6V, that top blue wire is the one that has 60V
Second fuse is 6V, that top brown wire feeds the back box.
Third fuse is ~60V feeding coils (temporarily setup with a breaker)
Fourth fuse is line voltage (temp breaker used)

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#20 7 years ago

Underside of playfield showing blue wire unsoldered from that bare wire. The bare wire connects to all GI lamps and insert lamps and some switches. The same blue wire also connects to the bare wire at two other points...those points were unsoldered as well.

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#21 7 years ago

Yeah, I would look for other options too, instead of breaking a plug. Bally plugs were not that great to begin with.
I would, however, look real close at the plugs/sockets, to see it you can see anything that does not look right. it is possible that the plug/socket may have some trash dropped on it, causing a short. Also, if I have not yet said it, look at the wire bundles, and follow them along looking for anyplace where the bundle makes a sharp bend around anything metal. these games viberated a lot, and wires can rub against metal, and skin the coating a little, exposing the wire inside. this is sometimes hard to see, as the bundles are usually tied up pretty tight. but if you find any thing like that, chk it out. and move things if needed.
if possible, follow those blue wires from end to end, you will prob find your short.

Quoted from Gumboyaya:I didn't bother with the back box since those lights were/are working, I believe they are fed by the other 6V circui

if the back box is workin, your prob right.

#22 7 years ago

Ok, I see whuts goin on here. the blue wires are the outgoing side of the fuse. that red/grey? wire feeding both 6volt fuses is the supply.
since you have already removed the blue wires from the bare wire, you could separate the blue wires at the fuse, and at the bare wire, and measure each one separately. I would bet only one has the short, but cud be wrong.
since most games run the HOT to the device, then short the other end to ground to activate it, I assume the bare wire is supposed to be hot. although, that scares me. too much potential for a short.

#23 7 years ago

look at the pic I added the red ring to. that bulb tab is close to the metal bracket. look for anything like that, and chk closely.
that could be a short if the tab touches the metal. which can be part of a hot circuit. not sayin it is, but cud be. look for any thing on the board that is close to touching something else.
this can happen to switches too. chk all the solder tabs on switches, if bent, can cause a short.

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#24 7 years ago

Hi Gumbo, Dr_of_Style +
here made from ipdb-schematics and Gumbo's picture: "What is what", greetings Rolf

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#25 7 years ago

Hi
I forgot to write the letter "I" pointing to "wire-blue on the fuse (picture) and to wire-blue at the schematics after the 6VAC-15-Amp-Fuse (other side of "letter E").
I forgot to write the letter "J" pointing to "wire-brown on the fuse (picture) and to wire-brown at the schematics after the 6VAC-15-Amp-Fuse (other side of "letter E"), greetings Rolf

#26 7 years ago

Thank you Rolf! as always, you provide the wisdom to the mayhem!

#27 7 years ago

Wow, thanks so much Rolf!
I know the schematics show some GI fed by the brown wire, but all play field lighting is definitely fed by blue only. I think brown only feeds back box.

For some reason I am now getting 34V on the blue now instead of the ~60V.

DR: There appears to be only 1 blue wire. Everywhere it connects, it seems there is just a little insulation stripped and that bit of bare wire is the connection point. So everywhere there seems to be 2 blue wires, they seem to be the same wire.

I got the play field jones plugs off. I had already pulled a short length of gold chain from that area but could not get the screw that was also nearby. I had pushed the screw away, but could not remove. It's been bothering me, so I patiently/carefully pulled the jones. I got the screw out and found another screw and a broken bolt in a nut. None of those things seemed to be shorting anything, but at least now they are gone.

Readings with play field jones plugs disconnected:
(note: with meter attached to transformer common and probe not touching anything; I read 2V AC. I don't know why it does not read 0, but that may affect my readings)

At the fuse end with the blue wire I get 34V
At the blue wire on the play field I get 4V (even though jones are disconnected)
I checked other parts of the play field with the jones plugs disconnected and got low voltage readings there too.
I don't understand how I can be reading voltage from a play field that is disconnected, but again I am reading 2V on my meter even when connected to nothing but common lug on transformer and the probe touching nothing.

Once I reconnect the Jones plugs I get 34V on the blue play field wire again. So I think we can be sure the short is not on the play field.

The only place a wire bundle make a sharp turn, it is held by a plastic clamp. I don't see any abrasions and the blue wire is hidden in the bundle for most of it's length. I would have to dissect the bundle to follow the blue wire for the entire length.

Quoted from Dr_of_Style:

Ok, I see whuts goin on here. the blue wires are the outgoing side of the fuse. that red/grey? wire feeding both 6volt fuses is the supply.

Exactly correct. Except those two blue wires are likely a single wire.

Quoted from Dr_of_Style:

most games run the HOT to the device, then short the other end to ground to activate it,

Wow, thanks for that. If I knew that to start I would have made less wrong turns. Now things make more sense!

#28 7 years ago

Hi Gumbo
I looked at the ipdb-schematics. 50VAC-POWER-connection have: Wire-80-black, wire-81-4-black-red, wire-38-10-yellow-black, wire-15-red-white, wire-10-red. And of course the "returning-wire is wire-30-yellow".

What relays / stepper / units (other than lamps, flipper-bats- bumpers, Kickout-Hole, Slingshot-Kickers, Up-Post-Down-Post above the flippers) are mounted on Your playfield ?

The schematics shows the three Jones plugs connecting Panel to Cabinet. Wire-80-black is in the 16-Plugs, wire 81-4-black-red I do not see (it is OK to me), wire 38-10-yellow-black is in the 16-Plugs, wire-15-red-white I do not see (it is +/- OK to me - please write WHERE are Outhole-Relay / Extraball-Relay / Ball-Index-Relay / Tilt-Relay mounted ?), wire-10-red is in 18-Plugs, wire-30-yellow is in 18-Plugs.
So we are chasing an POWER-wire that faulty has connection to wire-20-blue (wire-20-blue beeing in 18-Plugs). SOMEWHERE on the underneathside of the playfield You have an faulty-connection spilling 50VAC to wire-20-blue connected lamps.

So when You unsolder ONE BY ONE (and testing with the meter after unsoldering one wire) - You unsolder on the female / socket of the Jones-Plug lets say "FIRST YOU unsolder wire-10-red OUT/ away from 18-Plugs-SOCKET: IF (if, if) the fault (on wire-blue) does NOT show-up --- conclusion: Fault has to do WITH wire-10-red. And so on and on - ONE BY ONE wire to be unsoldered from the Sockets-Lugs of the Jones-Plugs.

OR LOOK ALLOVER the playfield at coils - has an wire broken-off a coil and touching another wire ? Greetings Rolf

#29 7 years ago

ok, a couple things. the blue wire starts out as two on the fuse, one goes one way, the other, well...the other way. same wire.
when it gets to the bare wire, it terminates. but...it also needs to go farther away, so instead of runnin another wire from fuse, they splice onto the end of the last one, and extend out to next place needed. saves wire.
the weird reading on the meter has to do with digital meters, and air. the meter can pick up stuff, like magic. so, only believe what you read with BOTH leads connected to something.
I agree, the short is prob in the bottom board, or looping through something else.
I would like for you to remove the two wires from the fuse. then separate them, clip lead one back to fuse, and measure, then, do the other one. you may find only one wire is shorted.
those wires prob go to jones plugs only. since there is only a couple bulbs in the cabinet. CHK THEM!!! in the coin door.
are there any step units on the bottom board? look them over closely. some use the frame as the return line, which makes them hot.
if a switch is touching the metal, could cause the short.

#30 7 years ago

Thanks guys!

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

WHERE are Outhole-Relay / Extraball-Relay / Ball-Index-Relay / Tilt-Relay mounted ?

All mounted on right side of bottom board.
Blue also seems to be connected to game over interlock on left side of bottom board.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

What relays / stepper / units (other than lamps, flipper-bats- bumpers, Kickout-Hole, Slingshot-Kickers, Up-Post-Down-Post above the flippers) are mounted on Your playfield ?

There is a bank of 7 relays labeled:
Left Yellow TB
Right Yellow TB
Right Red TB
Left Red TB
Yellow TB Light
Lower Gate

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

SOMEWHERE on the underneathside of the playfield You have an faulty-connection

I'm not sure about that. With all 3 Jones plugs removed, the high voltage on the blue wire in the bottom board is unchanged.

Quoted from Dr_of_Style:

the blue wire starts out as two on the fuse, one goes one way, the other, well...the other way. same wire.

Quoted from Dr_of_Style:

I would like for you to remove the two wires from the fuse. then separate them, clip lead one back to fuse, and measure, then, do the other one. you may find only one wire is shorted.

It was not two wires, it was just a small section stripped to make the solder connection. Looks like one side goes right to feed the 4 relays Rolf asked about. The other side goes left to feed game over interlock relay and back box I guess. I cut the wire where I unsoldered it and voltage reads identical on both cut ends.

It's impossible to get to and check all the connections on those relays on the bottom board and to trace the wire. There is just no room to see and most of it is hidden from view from above. I need to remove the whole bottom board from the machine to be able to access. I really need to pull the bottom board anyway to properly clean it and the bottom cabinet. Once removed I will be able to see the lower connections to those relays from the side. Right now I can't see them without removing the top connections which hide the bottom connections.

Thanks again for all the help!
Cheers,
Gumbo

#31 7 years ago

Standby, may be fixed?!?!?

#32 7 years ago

A short on the contacts on the lock relay?

#33 7 years ago

I don't know.
I think it may have been resolved after the voltage magically dropped from 60V to 37V.

Quoted from Dr_of_Style:

I would like for you to remove the two wires from the fuse. then separate them, clip lead one back to fuse, and measure, then, do the other one. you may find only one wire is shorted.

I did this and it read 6.7V, then I did it to the other end and it also read 6.7V. I resoldered the ends back to the fuse block and then it read 37V again. After a cup of coffee I read it again and it read 6.7V again. Replaced the Jones plugs and the test bulb on the play field did not blow or glow too bright and the game was running properly. I replaced all the play field bulbs and played several games, so far so good.

I'd feel better knowing what the "fix" was, and I'm not convinced the issue will not reappear, but it's running fine at the moment.

Thanks again for all the help folks.

#34 7 years ago

The saga continues:

With everything working well, I pulled the circuit breakers and replaced with fuses and reattached anything I removed.

Started a game and the play field lights did not come one. Checked blue wire voltage and it was 60V again. Checked fuse, it did not blow. Checked bulbs, they were fine. Started it again and play field lights came on but dim. Voltage tested at 5V. Game played, but every time a ball went through a top rollover an extra ball was awarded (I think I saw this problem in the past). During the second or third game, the play field lights went out again. Now registering 6V at fuse and no voltage on play field blue wire.

After turning it off and walking away, I tried again. Now it will not start a game. Power switch engages lock relay. Play button engages credit relay. I'm not sure game over interlock relay is working right, it is locked on. If I release lock when power off it locks again when power turned back on. If I release lock when power on it immediately re-locks but play field lights come on for a moment.

#35 7 years ago

Update:
I just discovered that the bare play field wire fed by the blue wire is also connected to a white wire. I'm guessing that is 50-white on the 20-pin Jones plug. It's also 16-guage just like 20-Blue. This may explain why I sometimes got voltage on the bare wire even when the Jones plug with the blue wire was disconnected. I'm thinking it's also possible that the short may be with that white wire instead of the blue.

There are two other white wires I could find; 50-4 on the 12-pin Jones plug going to coin door and 50-2 on the other 20-pin Jones plug "cabinet to insert plug".

#36 7 years ago

Update:
Since the score motor was not engaging, I actuated it by manually closing the first switch, it ran. When the machine was restarted it started properly but again play field lights were dim. After a game and some voltage tests the play field lights went out again. The 15A fuse did not blow but was pretty warm.

After restarting again, play field lights continue to be out but game functions.

#37 7 years ago

Update:
May be good again!?!?
Was getting 6V on the fuse, but not on the blue wire, even on bottom board. I re-flowed solder on the blue wire to the fuse and we are back working again. Not sure if lights are still dim. They are not as dim as before and this is the first time I have used #47 instead of #44.
Will continue to uh, err, "test".

#38 7 years ago

pull the bottom , change the fuse holders, and go through everything on that board, then try again.
we are just chasin tail here.

#39 7 years ago

Agreed, both those things need to be done.

Right now she is running well. Played several games with no issues.
I unsoldered the blue wires and cleaned up the tab and re-stripped and tinned the ends and then made the solder connection again. Lights are about the same or a tiny bit brighter. They are not obviously dim like before, it may just be the #47 bulbs I'm not used to.

#40 7 years ago

Well, it's been 3 days and many games without any power issues. I think we can call this fixed.
The machine certainly needs more work to get it to 100% but looks like the power issue is resolved.
Thanks again for all the help!

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