(Topic ID: 212730)

Little Joe 1000 points or more not correct added

By HermanLittleJoe

1 year ago

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  • 13 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by rolf_martin_062
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0Little-Joe-Work-04 (resized).jpg
0Aztec-making-100-Points (resized).jpg

#1 1 year ago

On the playfield there are two targets of 1000 points each, a switch of 500 (when lit 5000) points and a kick hole of 3000 (when lit 5000) points. When the ball hits one of these targets sometimes the score is NOT counting (0 points) or 1000 points (regardless which target) or counting according the specified points (correct). Note: when the switch is at his 500-position (so beneath the 1000 points) the score is added correctly.
On the other side the points are added correctly by the score reels. For example when hitting a mushroom of 100 points 11 times in a row, a score of 1100 points is added. If followed by a triple hit of lets say 500 points each, the pin added 1500 points and the score reels are rotating accordingly to these points. So the score reels are working in the right way.

So only when hitting targets of 1000 points or more, sometimes a score is not added at all or with the wrong points.
Can someone give me a hint where to start checking?

#2 1 year ago

Does this happen to all players?

#3 1 year ago

HowardR, thanks for you reply. Yes, it happens to all 4 players.

#4 1 year ago

Either the 1000 Point relay isn't fully activating or the 1000 Point relay isn't fully activating the score reels. Which?

#5 1 year ago

I didn't know the pin has two 1000 point relais. I will check both of them.

#6 1 year ago

Hi Herman
here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1460&picno=14819&zoom=1 on top of the playfield --- on the left I believe to see the mentioned targets --- maybe the "Self-Hold-Circuitry on the 1000-Point-Relay" is not functioning --- I am curious - when You close the target manually for lets say a full second - then let go on the target --- question: Do You ALWAYS get the 1000 points ?
(((I had a busy day - it is time to go to sleep, till tomorrow) Greetings Rolf

#7 1 year ago

Hi rolf_martin_062 , thanks for yout reply. Unfortunately closing the target for one full second doesn't make a difference; no 1000 points added. That means that the self-hold-circuit is malfunctioning?
Sometimes I get the feeling that when the pin is "warmed up", the 1000 points are added morer easily than when the pin is "cold". Could be the case, I don't know for sure. Adding 1000 sometimes happens, sometimes not at all...

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from HermanLittleJoe:

Hi rolf_martin_062 , thanks for yout reply. Unfortunately closing the target for one full second doesn't make a difference; no 1000 points added. That means that the self-hold-circuit is malfunctioning?
Sometimes I get the feeling that when the pin is "warmed up", the 1000 points are added morer easily than when the pin is "cold". Could be the case, I don't know for sure. Adding 1000 sometimes happens, sometimes not at all...

When you close the target and 1000 points doesn't happen, does the 1000 point relay activate?

#9 1 year ago

Hi rolf_martin_062 , when I close the target, the first 1000 points happen, another closing of the target doesn't. The first time the relay is being activated, but the second time I discovered that not alle switches closed/opened.
Because when I manually pushed the relay a little bit more in his activated position, so it gave a little bit more pressure on the switches, another 1000 points happen and...the relay was also nicely released, back to his starting position. This was not happening the first time.
Therefore there was just one thing to do. I removed the relay and cleaned it deep and also adjusted the leaves of the switches.
Untill now the 1000 points relay is running smootly and doing his job!
Hope it will stay that way.
Thanks for your help.
One more question: do you know why the 1000 point relay is attached to the mounting-board with rubber suspensions?

#10 1 year ago

Hi Herman
great - You could fix the fault.

"rubber suspension used when mounting an relay" --- I do not know - I could do some guessing but guessing does not bring up truth / clarity.

Self-Hold-Circuitry - many features in an pin have the Self-Hold-Circuitry --- an relay gets Initial-Current - pulls-in - therefore the switches are moved - one of the switches moved is an closing switch - closing and so feeding the coil on the relay forever*** with Self-Hold-Current.
No, not forever*** --- another switch in the Self-Hold-Circuitry opens at a time (later) - the relay looses Self-Hold-Current and let go and so the "Switch on the relay opens" --- the other switch can close - relay stays inactive.
The standard example of an "Relay with Self-Hold-Switch" is the "Gate" --- here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1460&picno=45805 in the lower right corner --- we player enjoy the functionality of the Gate opening - raise the Playfield - look at the goodie - see the switch on the goodie (relay) - the Self-Hold-Switch on the Gate-Relay.

Think of time needed - the plunger on a Score-Drum needs (just lets say) 0.6 second to travel all the way so tooth behind tooth then makes possible "the mechanical movement to step the Score-Drum a step". When the coil on the Score-Drum (lets say) only is pulling for 0.4 seconds: The travelling plunger does not travel long (in distance) enough to reach position for "Tooth hooks-on behind tooth" --- NO POINTS given.
So the manufacturers made an nice invention: The 100-Point-Relay gets (Initial) Current - relay pulls, closes its Self-Hold-Switch, also closes a switch to feed current to the 100-Point-Score-Drum - the Score-Drum pulls-in its plunger - when the plunger reaches "end position for Tooth behind tooth": The moved plunger OPENS a switch to cut current to the coil on 100-Point-RELAY - the relay let go and so cuts current feeding the coil on the Score-DRUM - DRUM stops / ends pulling the plunger - the retaining spring pulls back the plunger - mechanically (tooth behind tooth) the points are given.

When writing my post-6: I thought "Maybe the Self-Hold-stuff on the RELAY does not work" - but when the Playfield-Switch is manually closed looooong in time: The looooongtime flowing Initial-Current to the RELAY enables the Score-Drum-action". Greetings Rolf

#11 1 year ago

Hi rolf_martin_062 , thanks again for your extensive answer! You've expanded my pin-knowledge with another item: the Self-Hold-mechanism. Bit by bit it's nice to feel you get a grip on the machine. Thanks again and have a nice weekend! Greetings, Herman

#12 1 year ago

Hi Herman
please do me a favor --- on top - in the beginning of the topic there is a box You can click on to make the topic visible as "problem solved" - do it - I happen to like to see these marks when looking at the EM-Tech-Submenue in pinside ...

A long time ago I made on an Williams Pin (Aztec) an JPG "making 100 points" --- Williams and Gottlieb and Bally have the same logic - see the JPG - A, B, C is resetting when a new game has been started --- can You follow the "D - closing an Playfield switch" then E F G H "then C" then I opening ends the feature.
(((J is missing))) The "K L" is the start to make 100 points when 10 points are made - the 10-Point-Score-Drum happens to be in position 90 - the 100-PointScore-Drum also must step. Greetings Rolf

0Aztec-making-100-Points (resized).jpg

#13 1 year ago

Hi Herman
You have found, fixed the problem (post-9) and You have marked "topic as solved" --- I should not write posts. I suspected "problem 'Self-Hold-Circuitry' " - in post-12 I showed (Self-Hold-Switch, -Circuitry) feature "making 100 points using Self-Hold-Switch on 100-Point-Relay". Your pin has the feature "making 500 points" - the making 500 points is a feature calling five times the (now it is a sub-feature) the "making of 100 points".
In the feature "making 500 points": The 500-Point-Relay has its Self-Hold-Switch (green-3, green-13) - also the Score-Motor has its Self-Hold-Switch (green-8, green-16). Initial-Current for the 500-Point-Relay (to pull-in) runs through "closing green-1" - Initial-Current for the motor (to start running) runs through "closing green-6".

Can You follow the (green) 1,2,3, "4 (motor is not yet running)", 5,6,7,8, "9 and 10 do five times the subfeature making 100 points", "11 cuts the Self-Hold-Circuitry 500-Point-Relay (12)" so 13 opens, 14, 15, "16 cuts the Self-Hold-Circuitry on the (17) motor" - motor stops - end of feature "making 500 points".

Your pin has the feature "making 3000 points" --- see "similarity" and "difference" (?). Greetings Rolf

0Little-Joe-Work-04 (resized).jpg

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