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(Topic ID: 278710)

Little Chief: Triggering 50 Point Relay results in Middle Chime Solenoid Stuck


By Galacnor

15 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 31 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 days ago by paulace
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bonus unit circuits (resized).jpg
Williams score reel advice (resized).JPG
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#1 15 days ago

Howdy guys,

Just finished the play field restoration on the Little Chief I've been working on and its decided after about 100 games that when the ball rolls over a 50 point target, that the middle chime solenoid should stick "on".

I'm sure it's just a dirty switch somewhere inside, as it ran flawlessly for games and games; but, I cant seem to find out which control the chime unit!

Any ideas?

Alex

#2 15 days ago

That is the 10 pt chime. I would check anything that scores 10 points. (kickers, roll overs, button roll overs, etc.

pasted_image (resized).png
#3 15 days ago

Look for a stand up switch behind a rubber that's touching a bit.

#4 15 days ago
Quoted from ArgosySK:

That is the 10 pt chime. I would check anything that scores 10 points. (kickers, roll overs, button roll overs, etc.[quoted image]

Quoted from currieddog:

Look for a stand up switch behind a rubber that's touching a bit.

Thanks for the advice guys, and the correction.

I'll definitely check it out. I also wondered if it was a stuck play field switch; but, could it be something else? The score counter isnt advancing continually; and the solenoid doesnt become stuck until after you strike a target that triggers it, and turning the machine off and on fixes it, starting a new game everything is normal, it's just once its triggered, its stuck there until power is removed. Could a solenoid have failed?

Cheers
Alex

#5 15 days ago

Heres a video of the current situation.


The chime ringing during setup is a new thing and I figure related to the malfunction.

Cheers
Alex

#6 15 days ago

You might want to check those EOS switches on your drum units (score reels) too....looks like they break the 10 pt relay circuit. Is your 10 pt relay locked on as well?

Make sure not to leave the coil locked on too long - those chime coils will get hot fast!

#7 15 days ago

There is black foam under the coil plunger that gets old and sticky and can hold the plunger.

#8 13 days ago

Hey guys,

Here are a couple of videos I made of what's currently going on. I think theres something very simple but crucial thats just not right!

Are you guys sure that this is the 10 point relay doing this? Its 50 point targets that make it start, and triggering the 50 point relay manually instead of a target doing it results in the same behavior.

The chime unit is newly rebuilt by me, so sticky old parts cannot be the cause of the problem!

#9 13 days ago

Well, the 50 pts you get is just the 10 pt relay getting 5 signals to fire as the score motor turns. It looks like your 50pt relay is not locking on, so I'd look at that 10 pt relay that's probably in the head. See if that relay locks on. If so, you'll have to figure out why.

Playfield switches and EOS switches on the score reels might be good suspects.

#10 13 days ago
Quoted from paulace:

You might want to check those EOS switches on your drum units (score reels) too....looks like they break the 10 pt relay circuit. Is your 10 pt relay locked on as well?
Make sure not to leave the coil locked on too long - those chime coils will get hot fast!

It looks like you identified some things correctly!

Took the back cover off, cleaned up the reels just a little more and adjusted their switches. They are now working correctly again! Thanks for the heads up.

You are also right that the 10 point relay seems to be the culprit here! Its staying on after its not supposed to be energized anymore.

I'll check the play field for a stuck switch behind rubbers again. Underneath seems to be no problems.

The only thing I'm not understanding now is why the chime is ringing during the startup sequence.

Cheers
Alex

#11 13 days ago

You can try pounding on the playfield with your fist in different areas to see if that sets off a switch that's gapped too closely. Don't forget to look not only at the switch contacts, but below them at the solder tabs too, to see if something's not right there.

If it's not a playfield switch keeping the 10 pt relay locked on, then you have to look at a schematic and figure out what breaks the circuit to a 10 pt relay once it's turned on. You say you've adjusted the score reel switches and now they're working correctly - that's good. But did you look at the EOS switch on the 10's reel? It's in a different location than the other switches. It should be closed until the plunger gets pulled all the way in, then the plunger should push one of the leafs until the switch opens, breaking the power to the 10 pt relay, at which point a spring pulls the plunger and the score reel and moves it to the next position.

I'm guessing that switch isn't opening for some reason. Hopefully it's something you can see visually.

#12 13 days ago

If the game scores 10 points on the startup that's almost always a standup switch behind a rubber. This happens a lot on newly rerubbered games for the obvious reason that the new rubbers aren't stretched yet.

If it does that then it would not score 10 points after that because the 10 point relay is locked on. If it does score after that it's a different issue.

Start a game and go around and pull each rubber from the respective switch. When you find it you'll hear everything release. But since this seems to be scoring 50 I think you have a different issue.

#13 12 days ago
Quoted from paulace:You can try pounding on the playfield with your fist in different areas to see if that sets off a switch that's gapped too closely. Don't forget to look not only at the switch contacts, but below them at the solder tabs too, to see if something's not right there.
If it's not a playfield switch keeping the 10 pt relay locked on, then you have to look at a schematic and figure out what breaks the circuit to a 10 pt relay once it's turned on. You say you've adjusted the score reel switches and now they're working correctly - that's good. But did you look at the EOS switch on the 10's reel? It's in a different location than the other switches. It should be closed until the plunger gets pulled all the way in, then the plunger should push one of the leafs until the switch opens, breaking the power to the 10 pt relay, at which point a spring pulls the plunger and the score reel and moves it to the next position.
I'm guessing that switch isn't opening for some reason. Hopefully it's something you can see visually.

Mr. Paulace,

Your advice has again proved sound. I cleaned up the EOS switch, and also adjusted the contacts for the bonus spiders contact board, which I saw was a little crooked and now something is happening! The machine isn't registering scores quite correctly, still; but, the gong is no longer sticking, and the 10 point relay is also not sticking! This is some progress! The machine is technically playable again!

Quoted from EMsInKC:

If the game scores 10 points on the startup that's almost always a standup switch behind a rubber. This happens a lot on newly rerubbered games for the obvious reason that the new rubbers aren't stretched yet.
If it does that then it would not score 10 points after that because the 10 point relay is locked on. If it does score after that it's a different issue.
Start a game and go around and pull each rubber from the respective switch. When you find it you'll hear everything release. But since this seems to be scoring 50 I think you have a different issue.

Em's Inc,

Thank you very much for your sound suggestions! I have went around and tugged the rubbers and adjusted them-it seems it wasn't related to that! Too bad! Wouldn't that have been a nice fix?

It seems now that the relay isn't sticking on; but, theres something not right with the scoring system and startup.

Please see the attached video of the current situation to see what I am looking at now. I have to admit, I'm a little stumped! It seems to me like some wires somewhere are crossed or theres a short or something-I just can't figure out where or how!

As you can see, the startup sequence is wonky. It seems like it thinks theres points being scored for a time, and then its able to eventually reset itself. After it gets itself into play, scoring 50 points (and possibly other point values doesn't count up accurately or reliably on the reels for any of the players! This is telling in that it excuses the reels from being the sole fault, correct?

I've tried starting a game with the playfield unplugged from the rest of the machine, and the reels reset to 0 perfectly with absolutely no trouble, first time around!

Where to now?

Cheers
Alex

#14 12 days ago

Well, you still have a couple things going on. Obviously, your 1000 pt relay is firing steadily - but not stuck on like your 10 pt relay was, so likely a different problem. Although, since it began after you worked on the EOS score reel switches, I would look again at the one you adjusted and make sure it's opening and closing correctly - but to be honest, an EOS switch won't cause that behavior - it's just curious that it started after you adjusted a switch. Could you have bumped or bent something close by while you were working on that switch?

If you have a schematic, look at what makes the 1000 pt relay fire. I do hear your score motor running constantly too, but I don't know if that's a cause or a symptom yet

Also, when the 1,000 pt score goes past "9", the 10,000 score doesn't increase. That's most likely another switch problem in the score reels. There is a switch on each score reel that closes when the score reel gets to "9" - it's open at other times. Look closely at that switch and make sure it's operating correctly. You can compare it to the same switch on an adjacent score reel if you have one that's working correctly. Look for broken solder joints up there in the score reels also - a loose wire that's just hanging out there.

Look at the attached photos. I would go through each score reel and clean all the switch contacts, look for broken wires - carefully examine them and make sure as you click the score reel around with your finger (by pressing the plunger all the way in, then releasing it), that the switches open and close when they should. I know there are 16 score reels, which makes 64 switches, but they all have to work correctly for the game to work.

Start there and good luck!
William score reel switches (resized).jpg

Williams score reel advice (resized).JPG
#15 12 days ago

I just re-read your post #13 and you said that you "adjusted the contacts for the bonus spiders contact board, which I saw was a little crooked and now something is happening".

That might explain the constant 1000 pts being added. Bonuses are usually 1000 pts. So you might have adjusted something incorrectly on whatever mechanism gives you the bonus (sorry, I'm not completely familiar with this game). Look there for the 1000 pt problem.

You still have a separate problem with the 9 position switch on your player 1 1000 score reel not closing, I think.

#16 12 days ago

Man, I'm sorry - I've got to stop replying to these things so early in the morning! Looking at the video, your bonus is stuck at 6000, then eventually you hear a clink and it goes to 5. The problem is the mech that increases and decreases your bonus count. It's not moving easily. I don't have a machine in front of me, but that mech (like all mechs) should move up or down cleanly and easily each time one or another solenoid is fired on it. I imagine there are 2 solenoids on that mech - push each one in with your finger and release it quickly - see if the mech rotates one position each time. I'm guessing yours doesn't.

The other posts I put up are good general information, but probably not relevant to you right now, except that you may still have an issue with your 9 position switch on the thousands reel.

#17 11 days ago
Quoted from paulace:

Well, you still have a couple things going on. Obviously, your 1000 pt relay is firing steadily - but not stuck on like your 10 pt relay was, so likely a different problem. Although, since it began after you worked on the EOS score reel switches, I would look again at the one you adjusted and make sure it's opening and closing correctly - but to be honest, an EOS switch won't cause that behavior - it's just curious that it started after you adjusted a switch. Could you have bumped or bent something close by while you were working on that switch?
If you have a schematic, look at what makes the 1000 pt relay fire. I do hear your score motor running constantly too, but I don't know if that's a cause or a symptom yet
Also, when the 1,000 pt score goes past "9", the 10,000 score doesn't increase. That's most likely another switch problem in the score reels. There is a switch on each score reel that closes when the score reel gets to "9" - it's open at other times. Look closely at that switch and make sure it's operating correctly. You can compare it to the same switch on an adjacent score reel if you have one that's working correctly. Look for broken solder joints up there in the score reels also - a loose wire that's just hanging out there.
Look at the attached photos. I would go through each score reel and clean all the switch contacts, look for broken wires - carefully examine them and make sure as you click the score reel around with your finger (by pressing the plunger all the way in, then releasing it), that the switches open and close when they should. I know there are 16 score reels, which makes 64 switches, but they all have to work correctly for the game to work.
Start there and good luck!
[quoted image]
[quoted image][quoted image]

This drawing is incorrect for positions 0-8. Whoever drew it drew the long blade on the top switch in the wrong position. It should be as it is shown in the ninth position. Basically at 0 all switches are open, at 1-8 the top two are closed and the bottom which is the 9 position switch is open, and at 9 all switches are closed. The 9 position switch is at the bottom of the stack, not the top.

#18 11 days ago

You've got bonus unit issues. It should reset to zero then to 1000 for each ball. It acts like it's not stepping properly at least from those videos.

#19 11 days ago

Hi Galacnor +
to support EMsInKC - some Williams manuals have a drawing of the switches - here https://www.ipdb.org/files/415/Williams_1968_Cabaret_Instruction_Manual_no_schematics.pdf scroll down to page-15 (ori-13) - see the switches on the bottom of the page. Greetings Rolf

#20 11 days ago

Hey guys,

It sounds like I need to recheck the switches in the drums for player 1 and focus my efforts on the bonus unit.

The bonus unit is clean and manually pressing the solenoids steps it up and down correctly; but, I'm guessing theres something more at play here-something electrical?

I'll keep investigating.

#21 11 days ago

Thanks EMsInKC for catching those drawings if they're wrong. I don't have a Williams machine nearby to check them. I'll get rid of them to avoid confusion.

#22 11 days ago

I had almost the same problem with a little chief. It was the switch adjustments someone had made. Pretty much turned the leafs into what looked like flags waving. Full of ripples.

After a slow methodical adjustment of open and closed points, the game played great. Fun fast game. (Someone posted this before me, but)

#23 11 days ago
Quoted from paulace:

Thanks EMsInKC for catching those drawings if they're wrong. I don't have a Williams machine nearby to check them. I'll get rid of them to avoid confusion.

The picture you posted is correct at position 9.

Bally reels work like this too. They're very similar but not interchangeable unfortunately.

#24 11 days ago

Thanks for catching that rolf and EMs - I work mostly on Gottliebs, so sometimes when I try to help folks on other machines, I'm winging it a bit. I'll keep that photo from the manual instead of what I had, rolf. Still can't believe I found something on the internet that wasn't true...Sheesh! What's the world coming to??

I think we're all in agreement that the op has a bonus unit problem. He says it moves freely when he manually works it, so it must be a problem with getting a signal to fire - either not getting a signal, or too short a signal to complete the ratchet movement on the bonus unit?

I've attached a photo of the 2 circuits that I think would be involved. If I'm understanding the schematic correctly, it looks like both the upper and lower circuits I've marked in red have to work together to get the bonus unit back to zero. In the lower circuit, there's a lock-in switch in the center path labeled "BONUS RE." that would stay closed once the Bonus Relay gets power until the switch on the left in series with it (BONUS UNIT OPEN AT "0" POS. SW.) opens, which will happen when the bonus unit rotates back to zero. If the Bonus Relay isn't firing, that Bonus Relay switch in the upper circuit won't be closed, and the Bonus Unit Reset coil won't fire.

I'd probably look very carefully at that switch on the left - "BONUS UNIT OPEN AT "0" POS. SW." which is on the bonus unit. If that's good (closed at every position except zero), I'd look very carefully at all the switches on the Bonus Relay. Maybe the op could watch the Bonus Relay and see if it's locking on during the reset process.

Again, I'm doing this before my first coffee - hope I'm not leading anyone astray.
bonus unit circuits (resized).jpg

#25 9 days ago

Hey guys,

Heres where we're at now, after some tinkering and adjusting.

It seems it counts down correctly now but still is making contact with the circuit that rings the chimes, and running the wheel around even when the wheel is zeroed out. Definitely a bonus problem, maybe a switch related to bonus not opening correctly?

#26 7 days ago

Hello Guys,

Still no further responses?

I will start troubleshooting via the schematic.

Here is where I am at now:

1.The gong no longer freezes in the "on" position!

2.The bonus now counts down correctly and resets every time!

3.The score wheel switches seem to be calibrated correctly and when tested by scoring 10 points or 100 points, the score counts up accurately.

That leaves two outstanding issues between this game now and totally fixed again (maybe these are clues):

1.Since score counts accurately and gongs sound accurately that means the problem doesn't lie with the 10 point relay, correct? It seems that the 50 point relay is not triggering something correctly still since its just interacting with the 10 point relay to send 5 signals?

2. I know its not supposed to hit the gong on startup, but, the longest gong still chimes several times on startup during the reset process.

Thanks!
Alex

#27 5 days ago
Quoted from paulace:

I've attached a photo of the 2 circuits that I think would be involved. If I'm understanding the schematic correctly, it looks like both the upper and lower circuits I've marked in red have to work together to get the bonus unit back to zero. In the lower circuit, there's a lock-in switch in the center path labeled "BONUS RE." that would stay closed once the Bonus Relay gets power until the switch on the left in series with it (BONUS UNIT OPEN AT "0" POS. SW.) opens, which will happen when the bonus unit rotates back to zero. If the Bonus Relay isn't firing, that Bonus Relay switch in the upper circuit won't be closed, and the Bonus Unit Reset coil won't fire.

I'd probably look very carefully at that switch on the left - "BONUS UNIT OPEN AT "0" POS. SW." which is on the bonus unit. If that's good (closed at every position except zero), I'd look very carefully at all the switches on the Bonus Relay. Maybe the op could watch the Bonus Relay and see if it's locking on during the reset process.

Hello again Paulace,

I've taken a look at your advice and schematic, and I think I've found the source of the unreliable bonus reset. It seems like theres something physically wonky with the sullenoid that controls the downwards action of the unit. When the playfield is stood up in the service position, the sullenoid pulls the plunger in reliably; but, when the playfield is down, it doesn't pull in reliably.

I wonder if the sullenoid isn't getting enough electricity and its related to the other major problems of the 50 point not triggering all 50 points reliably, chiming during startup, and 1000 point climbing during startup even on zeroed reels.

I'm going to try and clean it up and make sure its all kosher; but, its pushing in normally and easily when I actuate it-and it slides in when the playfields up in the service position. I tested the coils resistance and its checking out fine! Very puzzling!

The machine was blowing fuses somewhat recently-I never figured out exactly why. Maybe all this is related?

Alex

#28 5 days ago

In the schematic snippet I posted in #24, maybe you could look at that motor switch in the upper left corner - Imp-C. Make sure the contacts are clean and making good contact for a long enough time when the switch closes, which it will do 5 times every time the score motor turns. Also, look at the Bonus Relay switch circled in green in the same circuit...check those contacts the same way. If those switches aren't closing long enough, you might have the bonus unit reset relay not getting a strong enough signal to fire reliably.

If you're having a physical problem with the bonus unit not firing cleanly in one position, you'll have to observe it carefully, try to figure out what's different in the two positions, and see if you can change it to work. I'd probably start with cleaning it and lightly lubing the metal-to-metal parts of it. If those units are clean and moving freely, the position of it shouldn't matter.

If you take another video, could you set the bonus to about 10,000, then start the machine and let me watch either the bonus lights going down all the way, or bonus unit itself chugging away. It was hard to tell what was going on in that last video.

That's all I've got for you.

#29 5 days ago

The solder joints at the motor sometimes get bent into one another, causing arcs. So many switches that close together. One of the reasons I remove the bottom board to look at things with a magnifier.
If you can inspect ALL switch solder joints at motor to make sure none are touching.

#30 2 days ago
Quoted from paulace:

In the schematic snippet I posted in #24, maybe you could look at that motor switch in the upper left corner - Imp-C. Make sure the contacts are clean and making good contact for a long enough time when the switch closes, which it will do 5 times every time the score motor turns. Also, look at the Bonus Relay switch circled in green in the same circuit...check those contacts the same way. If those switches aren't closing long enough, you might have the bonus unit reset relay not getting a strong enough signal to fire reliably.
If you're having a physical problem with the bonus unit not firing cleanly in one position, you'll have to observe it carefully, try to figure out what's different in the two positions, and see if you can change it to work. I'd probably start with cleaning it and lightly lubing the metal-to-metal parts of it. If those units are clean and moving freely, the position of it shouldn't matter.
If you take another video, could you set the bonus to about 10,000, then start the machine and let me watch either the bonus lights going down all the way, or bonus unit itself chugging away. It was hard to tell what was going on in that last video.
That's all I've got for you.

Quoted from phil-lee:

The solder joints at the motor sometimes get bent into one another, causing arcs. So many switches that close together. One of the reasons I remove the bottom board to look at things with a magnifier.
If you can inspect ALL switch solder joints at motor to make sure none are touching.

Hey Guys,

We finally got it!

Geez! Its a relief! to hear it turn over correctly again!

The problem laid with the score motor! One of the tiny plastic spacers between switches came loose and was lying nearby. I put it back where it belongs and we are chugging along again.

Does anyone have any recommendations to prevent this from happening again, or was this just a freak occurance?

Cheers everyone for all your help!
Alex

#31 2 days ago

Hey, Alex - great to hear you've got it sorted!! If you're talking about those small white cylindrical spacers between switch leafs, they are made with a nipple on one end - that nipple should fit into a small hole in the switch leaf and then with a soldering iron or something, you melt the nipple so that it spreads out and holds the spacer in place. If it's just sitting in there without actually being attached, it will likely fall out again eventually. You can buy the spacers at PBR. I made one out of a wooden dowel one time...*laugh*

Anyway - congrats! Now have fun playing the machine!

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