(Topic ID: 269107)

Lithium battery replacement Black Knight

By McPin54

3 years ago


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#1 3 years ago

20200520_112113 (resized).jpg20200520_112113 (resized).jpgWhat am I missing here. I am still getting factory reset when I turn game on. I need to turn on and off real quick to get to trac mode to start game.
This usually happens when batteries are dead or acid damage to holder.

I replaced the battery holder with coin cell lithium holder and battery. (Battery is good)

What looks wrong or could be wrong.

Thank you in advance.
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#2 3 years ago

3v might be too low for your cmos ram they usually expect 4.5v.

If you ram is socketed just get an NVram replacement and ditch batteries entirely.

#3 3 years ago
Quoted from slochar:

3v might be too low for your cmos ram they usually expect 4.5v.
If you ram is socketed just get an NVram replacement and ditch batteries entirely.

Setting on a some of these lithuim batteries and holders. Once I use them up I'm all in on NVRAM.

My thought was the volts too. This style is one of Pinwiki's recommendations for system 3-7.

Could there be another component at fault?

#4 3 years ago

What voltage do you measure at pin 22 of the 5101 RAM when the game is off?
Also, what brand of 5101 is it?

#5 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

What voltage do you measure at pin 22 of the 5101 RAM when the game is off?
Also, what brand of 5101 is it?

The 5101 RAM chip was one of the components I replaced to get the mpu to boot. Oddly enough, the chip does not have a dot indicating leg #1. I am assuming that leg 22 is on the bottom right. With that said my measurement is 2.92 volts. Was my guess correct and is this a correct voltage.

Thank you for your help and responding!

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from McPin54:

The 5101 RAM chip was one of the components I replaced to get the mpu to boot. Oddly enough, the chip does not have a dot indicating leg #1. I am assuming that leg 22 is on the bottom right. With that said my measurement is 2.92 volts. Was my guess correct and is this a correct voltage.

Thank you for your help and responding!

Pin 1 of the 5101 when looking at it installed on the MPU board is bottom left of the chip, pin 22 is top left of the chip.

Can you post a picture of the MPU board with attention on the 5101 chip?

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Pin 1 of the 5101 when looking at it installed on the MPU board is bottom left of the chip, pin 22 is top left of the chip.
Can you post a picture of the MPU board with attention on the 5101 chip?

4.54 with power on
2.4 with power off.

Thank you!

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#8 3 years ago

Eeesh! That is the worst black topping I have ever seen. Where did you get that?

2V is the minimum voltage required to maintain memory contents, that 2.4 is plenty high enough.

Shoot me an email with your address and I'll send you a couple better 5101s (and 1N5817s).

Ed (Great Plains Electronics)

#9 3 years ago

That's an obscure 5101 RAM chip you've got there.. I can't find any datasheets on it.

Most of us still using 5101 use the Philips PCD5101P when replacing. They are plentiful, cheap and have the lowest data retention voltage at 1 volt.

Onto your problem, you are getting quite a loss of voltage between the battery and your 5101, probably in the vicinity of 0.7 volts with that 1N914 blocking diode at D17 which kinda says the current draw isn't "standby".

I just checked two of my Bally boards with PCD5101P and and CR2032 batteries but I use a 1N5817 blocking diode and the voltage loss is a miserly 0.02 volts across the diode.

If Ed is going to send you some 5101 I would order some 1N5817 diodes from him too.

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Eeesh! That is the worst black topping I have ever seen. Where did you get that?
2V is the minimum voltage required to maintain memory contents, that 2.4 is plenty high enough.
Shoot me an email with your address and I'll send you a couple better 5101s (and 1N5817s).
Ed (Great Plains Electronics)

Ed! LMAO. I pulled it from another board I had laying around. I always place my orders with you!
Much appreciated!
Thank you. I will send my info

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

That's an obscure 5101 RAM chip you've got there.. I can't find any datasheets on it.
Most of us still using 5101 use the Philips PCD5101P when replacing. They are plentiful, cheap and have the lowest data retention voltage at 1 volt.
Onto your problem, you are getting quite a loss of voltage between the battery and your 5101, probably in the vicinity of 0.7 volts with that 1N914 blocking diode at D17 which kinda says the current draw isn't "standby".
I just checked two of my Bally boards with PCD5101P and and CR2032 batteries but I use a 1N5817 blocking diode and the voltage loss is a miserly 0.02 volts across the diode.
If Ed is going to send you some 5101 I would order some 1N5817 diodes from him too.

Thank you!

1 week later
#12 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

That's an obscure 5101 RAM chip you've got there.. I can't find any datasheets on it.
Most of us still using 5101 use the Philips PCD5101P when replacing. They are plentiful, cheap and have the lowest data retention voltage at 1 volt.
Onto your problem, you are getting quite a loss of voltage between the battery and your 5101, probably in the vicinity of 0.7 volts with that 1N914 blocking diode at D17 which kinda says the current draw isn't "standby".
I just checked two of my Bally boards with PCD5101P and and CR2032 batteries but I use a 1N5817 blocking diode and the voltage loss is a miserly 0.02 volts across the diode.
If Ed is going to send you some 5101 I would order some 1N5817 diodes from him too.

Used the parts from Ed and I still get adjustment failure.

My real problem is I can get the Game into track mode, I can credit a game and get the ball to kick into the shooter lane but everything else is dead, no flippers. Ball does kick into trough.
Coils all fire in diagnostic check as well as flippers. MPU shows no errors or problem codes. I repined male 40 pin header. And all the headers on the MPU. Also Repined the two headers on the right side of the driver and two of the 5 on the bottom of driver. Where should I start to trouble shoot this issue.

Big shout out to Ed for the parts! Thank you!
Also to all that are helping me. THANK YOU

#13 3 years ago
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#14 3 years ago

Previous rework is always suspect. The 5101 is in a socket so it has been replaced in the past along with one PIA. Check for open circuit or short where a trace snakes between two legs.

Missing label on the one eprom and their sockets can be suspect too. Without a label a bright light like a camera flash can be enough to make the CPU lock up or reset and bit rot over a long period of time from light exposure is possible. Verify the ROMs if you can. No broken EPROM socket wiper contacts. ~~~ should ~~~ be giving you an EPROM error code tho if there was ROM (or RAM) problem. It is possible to get odd behavior when the flipper OS ROMs are OK but the game ROM is bad. Things like CPU crashes when the game is started or refuses to do anything but audit and test mode.

A test ROM may be worth running to see if you get any RAM or PIA errors.

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Previous rework is always suspect. The 5101 is in a socket so it has been replaced in the past along with one PIA. Check for open circuit or short where a trace snakes between two legs.
Missing label on the one eprom and their sockets can be suspect too. Without a label a bright light like a camera flash can be enough to make the CPU lock up or reset and bit rot over a long period of time from light exposure is possible. Verify the ROMs if you can. No broken EPROM socket wiper contacts. ~~~ should ~~~ be giving you an EPROM error code tho if there was ROM (or RAM) problem. It is possible to get odd behavior when the flipper OS ROMs are OK but the game ROM is bad. Things like CPU crashes when the game is started or refuses to do anything but audit and test mode.
A test ROM may be worth running to see if you get any RAM or PIA errors.

Thoughts on this?

Put in a Rottendogg mpu/driver. Game boots, goes to track mode, credits up......but when you hit the start button game stays in track mode no ball kicks to shooter.

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#16 3 years ago

Make sure all three balls are visible in the switch test, it won't start without all three. They can be in the upper trough, so don't ignore that.

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from Black_Knight:

Make sure all three balls are visible in the switch test, it won't start without all three. They can be in the upper trough, so don't ignore that.

agree. I took off apron to make sure. What doesn't make sense is that with original mpu driver I CAN start a game. The problems with that board set is that once you plunge the ball it does nothing, ball goes down middle and then coil kicks to trough.
Rottendogg board, CAN'T start a game.

Not yelling, lol just emphasizing

Thank you

#18 3 years ago

Weird for sure.

I know it's frustrating, but go back to basics with the new board. Run switch (with balls in trough) and coil tests to make sure they are all good. Make sure there is a credit or confirm it is on free play.

Tests should prove all the connectors are on correctly and that all fuses are good.

Report back specific results and we'll determine step 2.

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from Black_Knight:

Weird for sure.
I know it's frustrating, but go back to basics with the new board. Run switch (with balls in trough) and coil tests to make sure they are all good. Make sure there is a credit or confirm it is on free play.
Tests should prove all the connectors are on correctly and that all fuses are good.
Report back specific results and we'll determine step 2.

First, Thank you.

I went back to the basics and found that with the new board trough switches were not registering, not sure why. I did notice that tilt was closed. took off tilt but still no trough switches.
Since my old mpu driver would kick a ball out I assume that they register with that board set and now that I have disconnected the tilt....I should be able to play a game. Yes, That worked. Old boards work. Tilt was never an issue before.
Great take away "get back around to the basics", just because they worked last week doesn't mean something hasn't failed this week! LOL

Ive not had much luck with rottendogg lately. Maybe its just with BK. Ill check it in the my next game.

Thanks again to all. Everyone helping is much appreciated. Great group out here on Pinside!

#20 3 years ago

rottendog had problems with system 7 games. So even though it shows Black Knight on the board it most likely is not going to work correctly.

#21 3 years ago

Rottendogs had problems with the sound and speech but I never saw any game play issues on my BK.

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