Lite a Line getting stuck in tilt

(Topic ID: 216573)

Lite a Line getting stuck in tilt

By pinstyle

8 months ago

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  • 48 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by 29REO
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Green wire_LI (resized).jpg
Blue wire_LI (resized).jpg
Switch 3A_LI (resized).jpg
Insuating tape_LI (resized).jpg
counter (resized).jpg
Lite A Line Control unit (resized).jpg
Lite a Line_LI (resized).jpg
switch 2_LI (resized).jpg
switch 1_LI (resized).jpg

#1 8 months ago

I have a Lite a Line that keeps getting stuck in tilt mode and I have to manually trip the tilt relay to get it to reset. I cleaned all the switched on the tilt relay and made sure they were adjusted. I thought I had it but the problem has come back once again. One thing I did notice while testing my first repair was, if I manually trip the tilt bob the game seems to tilt then recover. If I hold the tilt bob in the tripped position for a few seconds I seem to once again come across this "stuck in tilt mode" again where the only way out is to manually trigger the tilt relay. Is that normal? Any thing I should be looking at to keep this thing from getting stuck in tilt mode?

#2 8 months ago

So that I am clear: you have to trip the tilt relay to get start to work? I'd check the anti-cheat relay, followed by the start relay.

#3 8 months ago

yes, I guess what am I actually doing is manually releasing it. I will take a look at the anti-cheat and start, thank you.

#4 8 months ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

if I manually trip the tilt bob the game seems to tilt then recover. If I hold the tilt bob in the tripped position for a few seconds I seem to once again come across this "stuck in tilt mode" again where the only way out is to manually trigger the tilt relay.

I don't understand this. By "tilt then recover", you mean the tilt light goes on then off?

the tilt light goes on if the anti-cheat relay loses power, or it goes on if the tilt trip relay trips. Trip relays have to be mechanically reset, and if the anti-cheat relay unpowers for some reason, then CU cam switch 6A needs to close to power it again...that happens when cycling the machine.

lite-A-line doesn't do much when the tilt trip relay trips. The playfield shutter closes if it's open, the 17V circuit is disconnected, the timer unit won't step up, winner search is disabled and the tilt light comes on. None of that would affect being able to reset the game (i.e. manually tripping the tilt trip relay shouldn't matter assuming the shutter was already closed).

can you give more detail on when are you having the problem and what it is/isn't doing? Right now, your description implies the switches on the tilt trip relay are assembled incorrectly or plugs are in the wrong place.

#5 8 months ago

yes the tilt light goes on and then off. I am pretty sure the game is ended at that point but I am not sure. Still it should remain tilted until a credit is added yes?

This is for a friend who I do not see very often. I will try and get some more info as to when and how it is getting stuck in tilt. in the mean time I will check the two suggested relays.

#6 8 months ago

So I didn't get very far. When I looked at the game the "Selection Unit" step up coil was locked on and fried. I don't recall this coil being locked on the last time I looked at it but I wonder if this coil is related to my original problem.

Does anyone know what the little plastic C clip is called that is on the coil plunger? Possibly a part number? It looks like it serves as a guide for the plunger while inside the coil sleeve. When the coil fried it melted this little C clip.

#7 8 months ago

I found the plunger C clip

#8 8 months ago

CU cam 6B pulses closed to step the selection unit. Make sure the CU cams are rotating to a locked position when cycling the machine and 6B is opening.

if it's not that, you've got a short.

#9 8 months ago

Thank you sir, I will take a look and see. I did notice the selection unit has a hard time stepping up in one spot, I will have to clean the unit.

#10 8 months ago

if a stepper unit is not stepping due to an overtight spring on the ratchet or serious crud, the worst case symptom would be the step-up coil continuously pulsing (circuit fed by a 16 pulse cam). The step-up coil shouldn't stick you're core issue is someplace else.

in the case of the selection unit on lite-a-line, there is no circuit that is fed from a 16 pulse cam. Only CU 6B steps the unit, and it shouldn't more than once per cycle.

#11 8 months ago

baldtwit could it be a hardened clutch? If 6B didn't open correctly (and the selection unit needed cleaning), the solenoid would lock on. Would 50V be diverted to enough other places that the anti-cheat would open during the cycle naturally? I'm surprised the fuse doesn't pop, if that were the case.

#12 7 months ago

when cam turning stalls when stacks need to be lifted, the problem is usually worn or overly-lubricated clutches.

when a high power coil is held on, the 50V could droop enough to release the anti-cheat, the fuse could blow, or the coil could just burn up. Depends on what else is active at that time.

in any case, you'll need to watch the game and see what it's doing

1 week later
#13 7 months ago

So I am not sure where CU 6B is but I did see two cams on the CU that lock. The one closest to the motor (third cam from the motor) was not in its resting latched position. once I moved it to a locked position I was able to start a game again. Could this be the result of a bad clutch ring? I am not sure where to go with it from here.

One thing I did notice is the latch for this cam has two switch stacks. If the switch stack on the right makes contact, when the credit button is pressed I get the stuck in tilt unable to start game. The switch blade was obviously disabled so I adjusted it and when I did, bam instant problem. So I moved that back to its "out of adjustment disabled position". I should mention is this thing a hacked beyond belief. Reflex unit is disconnected, spotter unit (?) is disconnected, I think it was the card selection unit was hacked, wires here and the just cut like something was removed. Switch stack on the CU gone. So I need to be careful what I adjust or "fix" because I suspect many things were disabled for one reason or the other. The game does work but I am pretty sure there are some functions which are not working. I have no interest in getting this thing fully functional, it would take more time and parts then I have. just looking to get it playable.

Found some over fusing so I corrected that. I appreciate your help guys.

#14 7 months ago

What is the nut and the spring for on the CU shaft? and how does it get tightened? I didn't touch it, just wondering how it works along with everything else. I actually also started working on another bingo. I got it all sorted out so far except extra ball selection wont work, got it to work once. I see what look like the same problem, one of the clutch cams is not turning at the same rate as it neighboring cams (looks to be hesitating and erratic in its movement). My guess is there is a timing issue here. For as complicated as these things look, I enjoy the challenge of working on them. it is difficult to not rip everything apart and go through everything like I normally would for a solid state machine. I guess in this case it is a matter of taking care of the needs over the wants.

#15 7 months ago

on lite-A-line see manual page 16. That game uses some different terminology from many other machines:
- start cams = timer cams. These spin usually 180 degrees when you cycle the machine and control sequencing of events. Switch stacks 4-7 are operated by these cams

- score cams = replay cams. Used during payout and operate stacks 8-11.

- the cams nearest the motor are usually metal drag arm cams (I don't have any internal pics of lite-A-line so can't say for sure). The drag arm cams periodically stall the start/timer cam rotation to vary the amount of time the 180 degree rotation takes. This helps randomize where things like the spotting wipers stop. When you watch, you'll see the metal cam next to the motor always turning, the one next to it gets stopped/released, and the block of timer cams also get stopped/released.

the spring/nut gizmo on the shaft can be adjusted to apply more pressure on the clutches. If the cam rotation is stalling due to insufficient friction (overlube, worn clutches), then turning the nut to compress the spring more may fix the issue.

highest resolution pics of everything could help...especially the modifications.

1 week later
#16 7 months ago

I see the erratic stop/go cam that you are talking about and the first timer cam, they look to be ok. There is another fiber cam that is erratic in its 180 degree travel though and there doesn't appear to be a drag arm that I noticed.

So is getting extra balls random? I was under the impression that depositing another coin would enable you to buy another ball. I am told depositing a coin is only a random chance at getting another ball which does seem to be the case.

I haven't made any adjustments yet. I will see if I can get a few pictures of the chopped up Lite a Line though. I will likely work on it later this week.

1 week later
#17 6 months ago

I got that third cam in to make a full smooth 180 degree revolution but now it seems i created another issue. Game wont start at all now. If I manually trigger the start relay, as soon as i hit the credit button i hear a click, which I believe is the tilt relay.

#18 6 months ago

So the game seems to work fine until the coin switch closes. If i rack some replays up, i can start a game. Pressing the coin switch results in the shutter closing and the tilt relay tripping. Anti-cheat is still pulled in.

#19 6 months ago

Pinstyle, are you holding the coin switch closed for a period of time? Try flicking it rather quickly - the game has a measure built in to prevent a coin on a string from being used to cheat it.

#20 6 months ago

Also, Lite A Line does not have an extra ball feature - there should only be 5 balls in the trough, and each game, you will be served all 5 balls unless game is tilted before the 5th is lifted.

#21 6 months ago

The game will award you the first three cards on a guaranteed basis - one per coin - then cards 4-6 on a randomized basis. You may get them on each successive coin or not. The machine gets into a more favorable position for granting you the cards with each additional coin/replay played.

#22 6 months ago

Yea even a quick momentary action of the switch closed the shutter and activates the tilt relay. If there are credits a can start a game after this happens but damn that credit button. Looks like i get cards one through five and six comes up at random.

#23 6 months ago

I had to put it down for the day, been at it for a while. Is it possible the coin circuit is shorted to the tilt? Or is there a switch on the CU that is adjusted too sensitive?

Five balls in the game, the only two trough switches seem to be adjusted correctly. Payout seems to be right on.

#24 6 months ago

Sorry I just realized there is a bit of confusion in the extra ball department. I had mentioned working on another bingo that does give extra balls (eight balls in trough). That bingo I can "win" an extra ball but I cant serve it to the shooter lane. It has an auto server.

#25 6 months ago

I have made some real progress. I believe there are some switches adjusted in a particular way as a hack to make this machine work. I think I got myself into trouble trying to "fix" a switch here or there that was not in its correct position. There are at least two switches so far that I know I adjusted at one point which cannot be in there correct position. The result is the game not functioning properly. So in the first picture I have a switch that can never close, the result is a game will not start. In the second picture I have a switch that can never open. Opening the switch (as it normally should) results are the same, unable to start a game using the coin switch. If I remember, one switch in the stack can never close and the other can never open. Sorry I spent a few hours sorting through this mess so I am a little burnt out on it. The game does appear to be working correctly now. I think there are some issues with the payout on certain cards that I will have to look into. One of the release coils for the search wipers is very toasty. If you get a big payout like in the 100's that thing start smoking.

switch 1_LI (resized).jpgswitch 2_LI (resized).jpg
#26 6 months ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

unable to start a game using the coin switch. If I remember, one switch in the stack can never close and the other can never open. Sorry I spent a few hours sorting through this mess so I am a little burnt out on it. The game does appear to be working correctly now. I think there are some issues with the payout on certain cards that I will have to look into. One of the release coils for the search wipers is very toasty. If you get a big payout like in the 100's that thing start smoking.

For your coin switch issue, there are only a couple of switches in the path, and one works the same regardless of if you use the red button or the coin switch. That leaves the SPDT CU cam 6D vertical switch. Check that one closely. In fact, that's the one in your second photo, I believe.

For the search index coils, there should be a 15 Ohm, 5W resistor (sand type) mounted on one side of the coil. This holds power to the coil. In my experience if the resistor is open, the game wouldn't hold the winner. If it is shorted... I don't recall what would happen. I would think it would either smoke the coil or drop the win.

Can you photo the coil that's smoking?

Payout issues can be several things, but the most likely is always dirt on your search disc rivets.

1 week later
#27 6 months ago

I will see if I can get a good picture of the toasty coil. I think it releases a multi-toothed metal cam all the end of the CU just before the search wipers. In the mean time I seem to have a random problem with this coil in the picture locking on. I have actually replaced this coil once already. It seems sometimes when it gets stuck it will release on its own eventually. It looks like this unit has something to do with enabling cards five and six.

Lite a Line_LI (resized).jpg
#28 6 months ago

I should mention that this coil locks on sometimes after triggering the coin switch to start a game. I looks like the unit should advance and when it gets to the end of its travel, it lights card five and six.

#29 6 months ago

The unit in the last photo looks like the Selection Unit. If it is then it should step-up six times and light each of the six cards 1-6. If it seems to be acting randomly (taking 7 or more steps to light all six cards) then barring the unit being gummed up, there is likely not enough tension on one of the vertical springs at the rear of the unit. This is most likely the problem. Also check the coil stop of the Step-up coil. Look at it closely to make sure that the diameter of stop itself is consist and and not "mushroomed". Also check the end of the plunger for the same type of damage. If either of the last two are damaged inspect the coil sleeve for integrity.

#30 6 months ago

You didn't state if by "The coil locks on" you mean that it is energized or mechanically stuck.

#31 6 months ago

I was just looking at the 2nd from last photo that you posted where you have a yellow arrow pointing to a set of switches. That set is a single-pole-double-throw switch so when the outside switch makes due to the lobe on the cam the inside switch breaks. It looks like both switches are closed. The inside switch (nearest to the cam) should be open.

#32 6 months ago

Correction to my take on the Selection Unit. I was thinking that this game was a Lotta Fun with a Replay Register Meter. According to Lite A Line lights the first three cards by the insertion of one coin per card and the remaining three on a mystery basis. So there must be a Random / Reflex Unit that handles the the random lighting of the last three cards. The site also states that this game has a Yellow-Line.

#33 6 months ago

I'm guessing the game is for home use and you may not be into the mystery card lighting thing. I'm thinking that you can make the game give one card per coin (6 cards for 6 coins) by going to the Selection Unit Disc and locate the green wire w/black tracer. It should be soldered across three tabs on the disc. The next three tabs ought to have the following color wires connected to them: yellow w/black tracer, greenw/red tracer and green w/yellow tracer. Solder a jumper across all of them connecting those last three to the incoming green w/black tracer. So you will have six jumpered together. Then go to the Control Unit Cam #4. Cams are numbered starting at the motor and counting away from it. There should be one switch on that cam. Find the blade with the white wire w/blue tracer and slightly bend that blade up so that it is permanetly open. This will disable the Reflex Unit which you then wouldn't be using. This is if you are interested in playing the game this way. Wait until you have the game working properly to do this mod. If you chose to do it, make a note of the changes and attach it to the inside of the machine somewhere visible.

#34 6 months ago

As far as your tilt issue goes look for the vertical switch mounted on Cam #6. This switch is a single pole double throw set. It is an Anti-Cheat circuit. Locate the blade with the red wire w/yellow tracer and visually inspect it to make sure that it is not closed. Place an insulator (piece of paper) between the contacts of this switch blade making sure that it basically won't work then try your game.

#35 6 months ago

I think your tilt problem is the switch referenced in my 3rd post.

#36 6 months ago

An easier method to do the 6-coins-for-6-cards mod would be to simply find the Selection Relay on the 5-Bank Relay coils (It should be the 2nd one). And either close the upper set of switches with the white wire & white wire w/yellow tracer OR disable the coil by removing one of the coil wires. This is simple and will allow you to immediately light all six cards one coin at a time.

#37 6 months ago

Hey Reo, thank you for the six coin six card suggestion but I need to focus on getting this thing in at least an acceptable working order first. The tilt problem was related to a latched cam which did not always complete its full 180 degree travel. once I had solved that issue (Thank you Baldtwit!!) I was no longer "stuck in tilt mode". Which in all actuality was just me not being able to start a game from the games normal resting state after it had been power cycled. As for the switches you mentioned, If that lower switch opens I am no longer able to start a game. It appears to be a hack to get the game to start normally though I could be wrong. This switch was set to always be closed and I noticed it while working on another issue and decided to fix it and adjust it to the position it is supposed to be in. That is when I noticed this switch for whatever reason can never open and had to set it back to the way it was. You'll have to forgive me I am not overly familiar with bingo games. So my problem right now seems to be the coil in my last photo staying energized (not mechanically stuck, I rarely ever have such easy fixes). I had spent some time thinking about it and it seems it would make sense that something on the CU is causing that coil to get stuck on. The Cu being what it is should be pulsing that coil no?....

I really appreciate the help from everyone. I know it is difficult working someone through an issue over the internet.

#38 6 months ago

If that is the Selection Unit then there is only one switch responsible for energizing that coil. It is Switch B on Cam #6 of the Control Unit. Count the stacks of switches starting at the motor and working away from it. When you get to the sixth switch stack look at the second switch from the bottom. That one pulses the Selection Unit step-up coil. This switch is part of the Start Cams Index. Make sure that these cams are turning as they should and that the clutch is not severly slipping leaving the cams sitting in place. Check the switch first. If it is open when the cams are at their "Home" position then you likely have a clutch issue. You could attempt to increase the pressre on the clutch by tightening the spring but if the leather clutch is dried out then it will have to be replaced. But first you could try to insert ONE DROP of neatsfoot oil (The kind used to season leather baseball gloves) on the pressure plate side of the clutch, rotate the cams by hand and let the clutch itself absorb the oil over a day or so and then try the game. Take a screwdriver and seperate the leather clutch from the pressure plate to get the oil in there. Excercise due caution to not damage the clutch. You could repeat this two or three times but if you over oil the clutch it will just slip and will not work and be just as bad as a dried out clutch. It's also possible that the clutch could be worn out but lets hope for dry. Let us know how it goes.

Added 6 months ago:

On the other hand, if the clutch has previously been oiled and seems to be slipping due to excessive oil, you can slip some plain white paper strips between the leather clutch and the pressure plate and leave it there for a bit. The paper will serve to absorb some of the oil and provide some friction to turn the cams.

#39 6 months ago

Also, I don't see the Control Unit Motor in the picture but I'm assuming it is good. Make sure that its cooling fan blade is on it because these motors can overheat, bind up and stop.

#40 6 months ago

BTW: Cam #6 is the same one that you have that yellow arrow pointing at. The upper switch blade (which should be open when the cams are home) completes a circuit to energize the tilt coil in the event that the coin switch is closed too long to prevent "stringing" the game to get free plays.

#41 6 months ago

Your game seems to have more than one modification done to it. There was originally only a single switch on both Cam #4 and on the Start Cams Index Coil. The wire from Cam#1 looks to have been moved to the added switch on Cam #4. This wire had originally been part of the circuit to step up the Spotting Unit. I can't tell from the picture where they got the other wire as it looks to be part of the original wiring harness. I also can't yet make out what has been added to the Start Cams Index Coil.

Lite A Line Control unit (resized).jpg
#42 6 months ago

So I have the game cycling as it should. Switch 6B seems to be fine but I believe there is something to switch 6D. I am pretty sure the lower switch cannot make contact otherwise I am unable to start a game. I will confirm that but I believe that is the case. Thank you for the paper suggestion to suck up excess oil, good suggestion. The CU motor sounds and works fine though it does run a little hot opposite of the fan, I am not sure if that is normal or if it is low on oil. It looks to be a sealed unit. I did notice that the switch stack for the counter unit seems to be a source of much frustration and trouble. I just cant seem to get this thing adjusted properly. It did work fine at one point so it is capable of working normally. Either the game wont pay out, or tries to pay out but wants to zero as it is trying to increment. or will increment but the replay button does nothing and will not zero when power cycled. I am not sure I know how this stack should be adjusted. The stack on the right seems ok, its that stack on the left I think that is giving me trouble.

counter (resized).jpg
#43 6 months ago

You didn't mention what happened with the Selection Unit Step-Up coil. Switch 6D is not right. If the red wire w/yellow tracer touches the red wire w/green tracer while the coin switch is still down then the game will tilt. If the red w/green is not in contact with the black w/red then the game will not start. In the picture it appears as if all three contacts are touching. Normal position would be for the red w/green tracer to be touching the black w/red tracer. Red w/yellow has to be open and it looks like that is the one on the bottom switch blade. Check that wire. It looks like it's a double wire with one going to the tilt coil and the other going to the tilt plumb bob. If the coin switch is tripped with that bottom switch touching like that then the game will tilt. Something's not right there. Are you sure that the cams were in "home" position when that picture was taken? With the cams in home position the red w/green should be in contact with the black w/red. As the cams begin to rotate the red w/green moves away from the black w/red and connects with the red w/yellow and if the coin switch is still down will complete the path to the tilt coil. I don't want to say what I think so I'll just go to a similar game - A Shoot-A-Line - and inspect this switch. Shoot-A-Line was the follow up game to Lite-A-Line. I can also inspect the switches on the Score Indicator where as your game has two switches on the there with plastic coated wiring indicating that those two switches may have been added.

#44 6 months ago

Regarding the switches on the back of the Score Indicator, the switches on the right hand side are a single pole single throw and a single pole double throw. The double throw looks O.K. but the bottom single throw looks like it's missing a blade. Maybe it's just the picture. On the left there appears to be three single pole single throw switches. When a game is won/added that plate rises and will allow the bottom switch and the top switch to open and cause the center switch to close. It appears that the top switch is already open when it should be closed. This opinion is based on the normal mechanical function of switches and spacers. That uppermost switch sure seems like an after market addition so I don't yet know its purpose, plus Bally didn't include the unit in the manual so I have to actually look at a game to determine what all belongs there.

#45 6 months ago

I got to look at another Replay Register today (although on a Shoot-A-Line) and it has two switch sets on the left and two on the right. I believe that the top switch on the left side of your Replay Register is not a factory installation.
The middle switch on the left side looks closed and should be open. On the right side I initially thought that the top switch set was a single pole double throw but it's not. There are two individual single pole single throw switches on the right and both should be open and both close when a replay is added and the plate steps up.
It apears in the photo that the upper switch blade on the bottom set is touching the lower switch blade of the top set. I can't see it in the picture but there should be a fish paper insulator between those two switch sets. If not and these two switches from different sets are touching then this must be corrected. Even though your photos are excellent, it is still hard to see if the contacts are touching.

3 weeks later
#46 5 months ago

I had some time to look some things over again. I added some insulating tape to the counter switches and made some adjustments as suggested. I think there were some issues being caused by those two switches not being insulated. I also noticed a switch on the third cam was making slight contact when it should not have been. This seemed to cause the machine to perpetually try and zero the counter when trying to increment. I also added pictures of where the blue and green wires go to on that counter switch stack which is suspect as an addition and not a factory switch. No idea what roll it plays.

Blue wire_LI (resized).jpgGreen wire_LI (resized).jpgInsuating tape_LI (resized).jpgSwitch 3A_LI (resized).jpg
#47 5 months ago

I will try and answer your question about the 6D switch next time. I know if the lower switch closes I am unable to start a game. I am not sure about the top switch on that stack. At least for now the game is cycling and playing as it should.

#48 5 months ago

Nice job on the paper insulators on the score meter.

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