(Topic ID: 195499)

List of IFPA banned tables?


By volcanolotus

1 year ago



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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Dr_Gonzo
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#1 1 year ago

I was reading about Who Dunnit yesterday and came across this interesting post regarding its suitability for tournament play:

Quoted from ifpapinball:

The WhoDunnit bug is repeatable and severe. It's on the IFPA banned list for events we run directly, but YMMV.

This got me curious about other games that might be on that list, but I haven't been able to find it anywhere. I looked through the PAPA tournament director notes, but many common games (including W?D) weren't on the list at all, and others were a little light on details (e.g., Big Hurt mentions scoring exploits but a cursory search of both Pinside and Google didn't come up with anything like that other than some bugs in the Pinball Arcade implementation).

Is there a literal list that exists somewhere?

#2 1 year ago
Quoted from volcanolotus:

I was reading about Who Dunnit yesterday and came across this interesting post regarding its suitability for tournament play:

This got me curious about other games that might be on that list, but I haven't been able to find it anywhere. I looked through the PAPA tournament director notes, but many common games (including W?D) weren't on the list at all, and others were a little light on details (e.g., Big Hurt mentions scoring exploits but a cursory search of both Pinside and Google didn't come up with anything like that other than some bugs in the Pinball Arcade implementation).
Is there a literal list that exists somewhere?

I don't believe so. There are actually quite a few Got.'s that have extreme billion point shots that are very annoying and unbalanced for tournament play. Gladiators and Big Hurt to name a couple.

I think there is also a crazy award/rule in that Bug's Bunny system 11 game as well.

#3 1 year ago

No official list that I know of, but Big Hurt was actually in one of my banks at Pinburgh. Not a fun representation for the Modern era category. But got to discover City Slickers in that bank.

#4 1 year ago

I think T2 is on the list because of some weird bug

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

I think T2 is on the list because of some weird bug

T2 is in pinburgh banks and who dunnit, at least last year, was in backup bank. So not sure how seriously to take the "banned" list. In the case of WD I believe they have a special rom for it.

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

T2 is in pinburgh banks and who dunnit, at least last year, was in backup bank. So not sure how seriously to take the "banned" list. In the case of WD I believe they have a special rom for it.

I think they've decided to not have them in finals at least. Stuff like that. T2 has multiple horrible bugs in it related to multiball start.

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from Hoser:

No official list that I know of, but Big Hurt was actually in one of my banks at Pinburgh. Not a fun representation for the Modern era category. But got to discover City Slickers in that bank.

I had this bank, as well. Some crazy scoring on this game with 100,000,000 and 200,000,000 awards that got me a big, fat ZERO.

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from tktlwyr:

I had this bank, as well. Some crazy scoring on this game with 100,000,000 and 200,000,000 awards that got me a big, fat ZERO.

I had it too. The biggest problem with Big Hurt is one of the awards is double your score, and if you manipulate it properly you can score it repeatedly. I won my game of it with 120mil :/

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I had it too. The biggest problem with Big Hurt is one of the awards is double your score, and if you manipulate it properly you can score it repeatedly. I won my game of it with 120mil :/

One person in our group had played it previously and ended up winning the game. Everyone else was mystified. LOL

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from tktlwyr:

One person in our group had played it previously and ended up winning the game. Everyone else was mystified. LOL

Sounds like the pinburgh experience in a nutshell

#11 1 year ago

Decided to link all the games that the PAPA director's guide mentions as a concern for some level of competitive play, as well as The Getaway (which is not on PAPA's guide but was mentioned in the other thread directly by a IFPA account).

#12 1 year ago

Why are BBB and Dr Who on the suspect/banned for tournament use list?

#13 1 year ago

DW was in a bank at Papa a few years ago. Hardest goddamn game I've ever played.

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinball-is-great:

Why are BBB and Dr Who on the suspect/banned for tournament use list?

Believe DW has some kind of glitch involving the outlanes when playing multiplayer games. Can't remember the exact details....maybe ifpapinball knows.

#15 1 year ago

http://papa.org/learning-center/directors-guide/?target=game-notes

If you look in the "Tournament Concerns" column, it does a good job at explaining why certain games aren't used in Tournaments.

For example, Dr. Who reads:

The video mode can potentially be a safe way to earn lots of points in Doctor Who, meaning players who employ this strategy will take a very long time and generally not play much physical pinball to go along with the video modes. Unfortunately, there is no way to speed up or avoid the potentially repetitive video mode process.

Advanced players may be capable of looping the side ramp with such ease that the game will play extremely long.

Doctor Who is an acceptable choice for juniors or less-skilled divisions, but it is not an ideal choice for events where higher caliber players will receive repeated opportunities on the game.

Big Bang Bar reads:

Lopsided scoring and tends to be a long playing game in a competitive environment.

And for T2:

Terminator 2 software contains bugs that can potentially be devastating to a competitive game. Known bugs include: 255 drop target hits to multiball, and a multiball bug that may occur when a ball is locked with zero seconds left on the timer causing a string of odd behavior from the game.

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from Frax:

Believe DW has some kind of glitch involving the outlanes when playing multiplayer games. Can't remember the exact details....maybe ifpapinball knows.

We'll use DW no problem for our events. Off the top of my head, here's a random list of WPC games we don't use because of software issues:

Terminator 2
Getaway
No Good Gofers
Tales of the Arabian Nights

#17 1 year ago

I'm curious what's wrong with Apollo 13? Is it because the BLASTOFF scoring doesn't reset between players and games?

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from Time:

I'm curious what's wrong with Apollo 13? Is it because the BLASTOFF scoring doesn't reset between players and games?

Not a reasonable competition game due to carry-over of thirteen ball countdown feature.

#19 1 year ago

A lot of games get used in Pinburgh even if they're not the best for tournament play, mainly because that tournament has soooo many people, and being a match-play event it has to have as many games as possible to suit the players.

The IFPA banned list is just an internal selection of games you wouldn't see at official IFPA events, not something PAPA, nor all IFPA sanctioned events, would have to follow.

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

We'll use DW no problem for our events. Off the top of my head, here's a random list of WPC games we don't use because of software issues:
Terminator 2
Getaway
No Good Gofers
Tales of the Arabian Nights

I've heard that TOTAN can't be used in competition, but am curious about why - unbalanced scoring? Too easy to build the bonus and multipliers? Or is it the objective-based game play leading to a massive-scoring wizard mode?

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from TopMoose:

I've heard that TOTAN can't be used in competition, but am curious about why - unbalanced scoring? Too easy to build the bonus and multipliers? Or is it the objective-based game play leading to a massive-scoring wizard mode?

There is some higher level MB that you intentionally fail at so you can keep restarting it over and over. Something like that. I think there is a video about it I'm sure. I can tell you from first hand experience that nobody in my Pinburgh group was anywhere near being in that position.

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

We'll use DW no problem for our events. Off the top of my head, here's a random list of WPC games we don't use because of software issues:
Terminator 2
Getaway
No Good Gofers
Tales of the Arabian Nights

What about Who Dunnit?

#23 1 year ago

Who Dunnit is fine with v1.0, no 3-bank bug.

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

We'll use DW no problem for our events. Off the top of my head, here's a random list of WPC games we don't use because of software issues:
Terminator 2
Getaway
No Good Gofers
Tales of the Arabian Nights

So is there an actual list of games not used for reasons like that? Or is it more of a collective knowledge type situation?

#25 1 year ago

If long playing times is a reason to ban a game from competition, many Sterns since 2000 should be on that list.

#26 1 year ago
Quoted from desertT1:

There is some higher level MB that you intentionally fail at so you can keep restarting it over and over. Something like that. I think there is a video about it I'm sure. I can tell you from first hand experience that nobody in my Pinburgh group was anywhere near being in that position.

Now I'm really curious! Can you post a link? The only Multiball with a ball saver is the final genie battle and it seems to me you'd want as many balls on the table as possible for that one. Plus, keeping a ball in the shooter lane makes the bottle move toward the genie quicker.

ifpapinball is that Why TOTAN isn't used?

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from TopMoose:

I've heard that TOTAN can't be used in competition, but am curious about why - unbalanced scoring? Too easy to build the bonus and multipliers? Or is it the objective-based game play leading to a massive-scoring wizard mode?

Watch this video

https://vimeo.com/19343131

#28 1 year ago
Quoted from volcanolotus:

So is there an actual list of games not used for reasons like that? Or is it more of a collective knowledge type situation?

It's collective knowledge. Much of it depends on the situation.

Our banned list is mostly reserved for our National and World Championship events.

Games with Catch-Up-Score or other mystery award intense games that can't be shut off also will typically get the boot.

There's other games where we'll use them, but only in certain states. For example Comet we'll now only play as single player games, since tilting your ball resets the 1984 progress for ALL players in that game (learned that at IFPA14 out in Denmark a couple of months ago).

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from mbaumle:

or example, Dr. Who reads:

What a horrible strategy that would be... Its not safe anyway since there is a good chance the call comes out the bottom left side if you hit the orbit. Better go for sonic booms or davros with the multiplyer up. I'm not sure they understood that game very well to have that be the "warning".

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

Watch this video
ยป Vimeo video

Interesting, thank you!

I may have done that by accident without realizing it - my focus is on the lower playfield during genie battle.

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

It's collective knowledge. Much of it depends on the situation.
Our banned list is mostly reserved for our National and World Championship events.
Games with Catch-Up-Score or other mystery award intense games that can't be shut off also will typically get the boot.
There's other games where we'll use them, but only in certain states. For example Comet we'll now only play as single player games, since tilting your ball resets the 1984 progress for ALL players in that game (learned that at IFPA14 out in Denmark a couple of months ago).

Rocky & Bullwinkle has a rare "double your score" mystery award, which I'd imagine is an issue as well.

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

What a horrible strategy that would be... Its not safe anyway since there is a good chance the call comes out the bottom left side if you hit the orbit. Better go for sonic booms or davros with the multiplyer up. I'm not sure they understood that game very well to have that be the "warning".

It's how you get high scores. There's a video somewhere I think of someone getting 30+ billion or something with it?

Quoted from TopMoose:Rocky & Bullwinkle has a rare "double your score" mystery award, which I'd imagine is an issue as well.

Saw all three other players get that during my. Game of it at pinburgh :/

#33 1 year ago

I'm still not quite sure how Terminator 2 should be banned.

"Terminator 2 software contains bugs that can potentially be devastating to a competitive game. Known bugs include: 255 drop target hits to multiball, and a multiball bug that may occur when a ball is locked with zero seconds left on the timer causing a string of odd behavior from the game."

A player has to hit the drop target 255 times which will give them an instant multiball? I suppose the other reason makes sense, but there is no way a player will be able to hit the drop target 255 times without a good number of those coming back SDTM. Plus "odd behavior" doesn't really define what that really is...

There are videos of T2 being used in PAPA tournaments and it seemed like a fine game to have included.

#34 1 year ago
Quoted from TopMoose:

Rocky & Bullwinkle has a rare "double your score" mystery award, which I'd imagine is an issue as well.

i lost a first place on rocky and bullwinkle at pinburgh as player 4 got 2 double your score awards on ball 3 O_o To be fair, after the second one which barely passed me, he still had the ball in play so could have beat me anyways. but was kinda lame

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from Bugsy:

I'm still not quite sure how Terminator 2 should be banned.
"Terminator 2 software contains bugs that can potentially be devastating to a competitive game. Known bugs include: 255 drop target hits to multiball, and a multiball bug that may occur when a ball is locked with zero seconds left on the timer causing a string of odd behavior from the game."
A player has to hit the drop target 255 times which will give them an instant multiball? I suppose the other reason makes sense, but there is no way a player will be able to hit the drop target 255 times without a good number of those coming back SDTM. Plus "odd behavior" doesn't really define what that really is...
There are videos of T2 being used in PAPA tournaments and it seemed like a fine game to have included.

I believe that "255 hits to multiball" bug is one that requires someone to hit the drop target 255 times in order to open up and allow them to start their multiball, so it locks them out of multiball for all that time. It also has issues where a jackpot can register but no points are actually awarded, this bug even happened on camera at PAPA.

#36 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

It's how you get high scores. There's a video somewhere I think of someone getting 30+ billion or something with it?

Doing nothing but video modes? 30 billion in three balls?

#37 1 year ago
Quoted from WaddleJrJr:

I believe that "255 hits to multiball" bug is one that requires someone to hit the drop target 255 times in order to open up and allow them to start their multiball, so it locks them out of multiball for all that time. It also has issues where a jackpot can register but no points are actually awarded, this bug even happened on camera at PAPA.

It's an underflow bug, instead of 0 left it wraps around, but once it's in the 255 state you can't even get it to go down again, you're permanently locked out of multiball.

With the other bug, you can end up losing a multiball and having three balls in single ball play again because of no fault of your own.

Quoted from TigerLaw:

Doing nothing but video modes? 30 billion in three balls?

Something crazy like that. The right combination of doctors, playfield multipliers, and you can just rack up billions of points. Granted, you don't usually need that many, and it's still not as easy as sonic booms all day

#38 1 year ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Doing nothing but video modes? 30 billion in three balls?

People exploit repetition all the time. Earthshaker's center ramp can be shot 99 times, and each ramp shot afterwards is worth 250K. Some don't mind the wood chopping adventure for high scores, I guess.

#39 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

It's an underflow bug, instead of 0 left it wraps around, but once it's in the 255 state you can't even get it to go down again, you're permanently locked out of multiball.

Quoted from WaddleJrJr:

I believe that "255 hits to multiball" bug is one that requires someone to hit the drop target 255 times in order to open up and allow them to start their multiball, so it locks them out of multiball for all that time.

Ok that makes sense, thanks for the follow up.

#40 1 year ago
Quoted from TopMoose:

Rocky & Bullwinkle has a rare "double your score" mystery award, which I'd imagine is an issue as well.

Double score on R&B is only available from super select when your score is below a certain value (somewhere near 100M). So it is valuable, but generally not crazy compared to other mystery awards.

#41 1 year ago

I seem to remember Lights Camera Action has some crazy Catch-up or Double your score mystery award. Phantom of the Opera also has the timed ramp shot on the third ball to double your score. There is skill involved in that, but it seems like a poor choice for competition.

#42 1 year ago

Lights Camera Action's Catch up feature is super rare. Of all hundreds of multiplayer games I've put on it, I've only seen the award given twice, and you can easily disable it in the settings if you want. It doesn't have a double your score feature.

The problem with Lights Camera Action is that it awards million points and extra balls as a mystery award for winning the gun fight, and it does so far too frequently. One workaround I've found is to put the game into Add-a-ball mode and turn down the extra ball percentages down to like 5% in the settings. Then extra balls become super rare. Millions are still awarded pretty frequently though.

#43 1 year ago
Quoted from LOTR_breath:

I seem to remember Lights Camera Action has some crazy Catch-up or Double your score mystery award. Phantom of the Opera also has the timed ramp shot on the third ball to double your score. There is skill involved in that, but it seems like a poor choice for competition.

Jokerz also has the tuned ramp shot to double your score. For some reason it was in A division finals...

#44 1 year ago

I don't think a skillful "double your score" that's equally available to all players is the issue. It's when that feature is not offered to players for skillful play, but rather as a "pity" or random award.

There are other games that have similar "pity" features like Family Guy / Shrek's ball 3 Lard Multiball (or whatever it's called), and those pins are still used. But it's not QUITE as bad as a the unbalanced 2x your score.

#45 1 year ago

You would probably be shocked at the sheer number of games that have sizeable exploits or scoring bugs that are used in high level competition. We generally don't explain exactly what the exploit is because honestly, if very few people, or only one person, know about it then it can be still used. Some of the exploits are so deep into the game that if you set up the game properly noone will reach that feature. Those are considered safe (e.g. Cirqus) Some games are just pure repetition, and because of that you see them less frequently but there is no other reason they can't be used (DW, No Fear, Earthshaker) Some others have exploits that could only be activated if they weren't being watched by others so are safe for finals (Iron Man) And many others have playfield validation issues that can cause issues depending on the code and how they are set up (JackBot, Congo, CSI, RBION)

We often use games that have a double your score feature, but we try not to use games that have a catch up feature.

Try to avoid games without tested code as new code can often contain some items that need to be addressed.

If you have a question if a specific game is ok to use in your tournament, I always suggest asking a TD or high level player if they know of any issues before using. Most of the time the answer is yes. Check the list Mark put together- it is really exhaustive and useful and has some nice easter eggs in it.

#46 1 year ago
Quoted from DiscoDungeon:

We generally don't explain exactly what the exploit is because honestly, if very few people, or only one person, know about it then it can be still used.

All you're doing by hiding it is enabling people 'in the know' to abuse it freely without recourse from other players. If it's bad enough that you can't tell people about it, then those games shouldn't be used in any serious competition where money is involved, IMHO. I feel like players have a right to know if they're about to get dicked over on a game for a stupid reason. Yes, there are cases like Earthshaker and others where you can watch what the other players are doing and mimic that, but some of these setups, like the GOT "Hand of the King" scoring ridiculousness setup, are pretty complicated and someone walking up to a game for the 50th time might not even know about it. Especially on new games with known bugs...that crap should not be withheld. I'll never forget the time I was playing Junkyard with some guy and he got the hidden random multiball in there and I was just like WATAF?! Had no idea it was there and the guy played coy with me when I asked, so I went and googled it and found it out. It wasn't in a tournament, thankfully, but...yeah...I know the feeling.

One notable exception: Pinburgh..... that tournament represents, to me, the beauty of everything pinball. You never know what you're going to play, and if you were almost anywhere else in a public location, you'd likely be playing games that had questionable things going on with them. I think it's far more important for that tournament to represent all of pinball than to have a bunch of duplicated games, and players there are guaranteed a minimum of play. One questionable game shouldn't ruin an entire weekend, unless you're just determined to be #1 seed.

*Edit* There's also been at least one case of an exploit being brought to light that the 'in the know' players didn't want to share that Stern later fixed after it got blown out by a few people on here. If this stuff doesn't get reported, and talked about, will Stern care about fixing them? No.

#47 1 year ago

http://papa.org/learning-center/directors-guide/

Quoted from DiscoDungeon:

We generally don't explain exactly what the exploit is because honestly, if very few people, or only one person, know about it then it can be still used

There's almost certainly more games and exploits hidden, but from the link above there should be plenty to keep you going

It's more about suggestions as to games that aren't ideally suited to competitive play, rather than "banned" games.

Taking the example of Earthshaker, or Bad Cats I wouldn't consider including that in a comp where there are players good enough to constantly keep looping the ramp, but they're both perfectly acceptable for "lesser" players.

#48 1 year ago

Hahaha, I didn't know about that guide, there are some great notes in here:

"Are you really about to do this?"

"Game may cause players to exhibit better taste in clothing."

"Surf 'n Safari is the most fun, challenging game ever created that features a crocodile with a Jamaican accent."

Picking games can be an adventure. If you're doing it, it's worth asking players about what they think or if they know of any weaknesses. I've used some of the games that aren't recommended in tournaments with no issues. I've also found games that once I knew the scoring exploit, I personally lost a lot of interest in it. A little google searching and asking questions isn't too hard and will pay big rewards.

Quoted from DiscoDungeon:

Some others have exploits that could only be activated if they weren't being watched by others so are safe for finals (Iron Man)

What is the exploit for Iron Man? I haven't heard about any, but considering I LOVE IM, I feel like I should...

#49 1 year ago
Quoted from goatdan:

What is the exploit for Iron Man? I haven't heard about any, but considering I LOVE IM, I feel like I should.

Me either...and we'd had one in our local league spot for a few years..it got pulled to go towards a new location... *scratch chin*

#50 1 year ago
Quoted from goatdan:

"Surf 'n Safari is the most fun, challenging game ever created that features a crocodile with a Jamaican accent."

I wrote this one.

I was surprised not to find any setup notes for SnS a short while back, so I got some great advice (http://tiltforums.com/t/surf-n-safari-setup-info-wanted/1875/1) and then sent these notes to PAPA.

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