(Topic ID: 332767)

Life expectancy of current era of games.

By etr104

11 months ago


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  • 82 posts
  • 46 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 months ago by Crispy77
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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    There are 82 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 11 months ago

    There's a lot of truth in the idea that modern games won't be fixable in 30 or 50 years. Proof? Just look at any modern device - cars, refrigerators, computers, etc. They are built to be unrepairable, both through parts that are all but impossible to re-create and through software brick walls. In 2073, absolutely no one will be restoring 2023 Hyundai Elantras.

    The average person 50 years ago would throw up if you tried to sell him a product that he couldn't repair. But, people have been weaned off of that idea over the decades....now, no one knows how to anything but order a new one off Amazon.

    #52 11 months ago

    Do y’all worry about your own health or children as much as your pins going kaput someday? Hah!

    #53 11 months ago
    Quoted from John_I:

    ...Back to reliability. The new Sterns are made with automotive grade parts which ensures much higher reliability...

    Just based on my experience working on one of my Spike 2 boards, the audio amps Stern uses (TI TPA2123D2PWP) is just industrial rated (+85C), not automotive (+125C). Ironically, the woofer amp is right next to the backbox LED's that dump a lot of heat into the board at 100% brightness. I've since turned down my backbox LEDs to 33% so things run cooler.

    Didn't look into the other parts, perhaps there's a mix of industrial and automotive.

    #54 11 months ago
    Quoted from etr104:

    I hope this is the case. Just really worried about Stern node boards that are prone to failure. How do you replace/repair one of those?

    Why do you think they are prone to failure? You repair them just like you would any other surface mounted PCB.

    #55 11 months ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    I think it’s going to get A LOT worse. Neon gas is used in the production of semiconductors, it’s used to aim The lasers that etch the silicone wafers. The world’s largest exporter of neon gas (70% of global supply) is Ukraine and the production facilities are currently in a war zone. Once stockpiles are tapped things could get interesting real quick.

    Sure if the tech industry as a whole goes down, so will pinball spares along with it. So you make a good point, and its good to point out that we are not at disaster stage right now and it is still affecting the pinball spares in a terrible way. Things are improving slowly but any serious turn for the worse and things will get interesting enough that pinball might not be a big concern at that point anyway.

    #56 11 months ago
    Quoted from mbwalker:Just based on my experience working on one of my Spike 2 boards, the audio amps Stern uses (TI TPA2123D2PWP) is just industrial rated (+85C), not automotive (+125C). Ironically, the woofer amp is right next to the backbox LED's that dump a lot of heat into the board at 100% brightness. I've since turned down my backbox LEDs to 33% so things run cooler.
    Didn't look into the other parts, perhaps there's a mix of industrial and automotive.

    I retired from the automotive electronics field over five years ago. Has something changed? For circuitry in the passenger compartment, storage area, and vehicle exterior (but not the engine compartment) the operating range we designed to (and to comply with SAE spec/recommend practice J1455) was -40° to +85°C. Storage spec was more extreme as is engine compartment electronics specs.
    A good example of vehicle exterior electronics includes ABS/Roll stability systems mounted on the suspension system of a commercial trailer or the frame rails on a commercial tractor or truck.

    This is changing with EV's since the motors and batteries run hot, but not as hot as an internal combustion engine when operating. Not during a "thermal event".

    #57 11 months ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    I retired from the automotive electronics field over five years ago. Has something changed?...

    Can't say for sure, and maybe it's more about how they lump parts into different categories on the data sheet rather than their actual application (you mentioned that aspect, passenger vs. engine compartment) i.e. Datasheets that tend to say 'Automotive' are usually +125C parts, 'consumer' or 'industrial' being less, and Military (what I designed) is also +125C but a lower cold temperature limit. I actually was thinking it was +150C for some Mil parts long ago, I could be mistaken, I'm retired too, my brain cells are going fast!

    In some cases, the die wasn't the issue, the packaging was the 'weak link' (you probably know that), i.e. the plastic or glue wasn't rated for high temperature.

    I worked in high power and most the time I was more concerned about the junction temperature. High power parts, for the military anyways, are treated a little different. Not uncommon for the die to be rated for +200C.

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    #58 11 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Why do you think they are prone to failure? You repair them just like you would any other surface mounted PCB.

    If the chip is fried how do you repair it though? We don't have any way to flash a new one. Surface mount is here to stay, get a hot air station and learn if you want to be a tech moving forward, but unless Stern opens the code or someone manages to reverse engineer it no tools are going to help.

    #59 11 months ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    If the chip is fried how do you repair it though? We don't have any way to flash a new one. Surface mount is here to stay, get a hot air station and learn if you want to be a tech moving forward, but unless Stern opens the code or someone manages to reverse engineer it no tools are going to help.

    Are chips frying? Never heard of that. I assume their failure rate is as good or better than previous systems.

    #60 11 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Are chips frying? Never heard of that. I assume their failure rate is as good or better than previous systems.

    Look at the node 10 debacle for Rush Prem/LE. The ramp motor stepper chip on that node is literally self destructing and taking out the ramp and clock.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/rush-node-board-10-issues-and-non-issues-list#post-7331819

    Oh...and good luck repairing that mess!

    #61 11 months ago

    Sounds like they have an issue specific to Rush they need to resolve.

    #62 11 months ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    Good to know, and a great example of 3rd party manufacturers jumping in to get old games working again

    FYI I make the Teed off ramp as well. Hollywood heat is available in 5 color options to boot. But I do not know jack about producing electronics!

    #63 11 months ago

    For all the hand wringing on the Rush node board issue, having it go out (like mine did, despite proactive measures) is not the end of the world. Just jam a rubber ball under that ramp to keep it up and continue playing!

    As for the future, someday no one will be able to believe how people used to play physical machines, when VR has been perfected. Oh, wait, is this not the unpopular opinion thread? (That is a clue that this was said tongue-in-cheek, no need to downvote! But it won't surprise me if it turns out to be true, if I'm even still around to be surprised!)

    #64 11 months ago
    Quoted from DanQverymuch:

    For all the hand wringing on the Rush node board issue, having it go out (like mine did, despite proactive measures) is not the end of the world. Just jam a rubber ball under that ramp to keep it up and continue playing!
    As for the future, someday no one will be able to believe how people used to play physical machines, when VR has been perfected. Oh, wait, is this not the unpopular opinion thread? (That is a clue that this was said tongue-in-cheek, no need to downvote! But it won't surprise me if it turns out to be true, if I'm even still around to be surprised!)

    Unless you are in poor health (hopefully not), you'll be around to see it. I believe that level of VR is fast approaching. I have a feeling that a modern pin's functionality will last until theyre essentially obsolete. The next decade is going to be fascinating.

    #65 11 months ago

    Why worry about future problems that may or may not exist? Keeping a 50 year old Stern game running is not going to be my problem.

    #66 11 months ago

    Several interesting comments. Sure, most of us could give a flip if one
    of our games was still working or repairable in 50 or more years. But EM's have a
    better chance than any SS pin IMO. Hopefully those in future generations
    keep the hobby alive.

    #67 11 months ago
    Quoted from jawjaw:

    Why worry about future problems that may or may not exist? Keeping a 50 year old Stern game running is not going to be my problem.

    “Worried about what’s gonna happen to my Batman ‘66 in 50 years” is definitely silly. But “worried what’s gonna happen to my Batman ‘66 in 10-15 years” is a pretty reasonable thing to be mildly concerned or curious about.. at least, that’s more where my head’s at.

    #68 11 months ago

    If these games can handle being on 15 hours a day, every day. And handle tens of thousands of plays. They can probly be ok at your house for a very long time.

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    #69 11 months ago
    Quoted from schudel5:

    It's going to be the availability of node boards and having people proficient in surface mount repairs. I'd like to be optimistic, but we have games right now that are unplayable or limping along because people are having problems getting node boards.

    #1 reason….NUMBER ONE, that I’m not buying a Stern, no matter how ‘fun’.

    I love rebuilding and repairing. I’m a mechanic by trade, so it’s in my DNA. But if proprietary code is imbedded in node boards, that screams ‘keep out.’ I’m not big on doing that.

    #70 11 months ago
    Quoted from DNO:

    If these games can handle being on 15 hours a day, every day. And handle tens of thousands of plays. They can probly be ok at your house for a very long time.
    [quoted image]

    I’m sure your reliable Stern is making those with bricked Sterns feel better.

    #71 11 months ago
    Quoted from underlord:

    I’m sure your reliable Stern is making those with bricked Sterns feel better.

    Right, this is kind of a “survivor bias” mindset.

    I get the “you guys are worrying for nothing” response, but there are enough anecdotal mentions of failed node boards (not just the Rush specific design issue) for it to warrant discussion without being shot down, imo.

    #72 11 months ago

    Star Trek replicators are coming... give them time.

    -3
    #73 11 months ago
    Quoted from DNO:

    If these games can handle being on 15 hours a day, every day. And handle tens of thousands of plays. They can probly be ok at your house for a very long time.
    [quoted image]

    You obviously dont get it.
    It's actually worse the better they hold up.

    This is just revealing how much of a crud modern companies and manufacturing is.
    Things are actually made to self destruct, and when they do, you're totally at the mercy of the company making it, if it still even exist.

    Manipulation forcing people buying their product is common. Just look at philips hue.

    One of my first post here were that the community would lean heavily on manufacturers sticking with artnet and windows compatible systems.

    Stern spike system is in the shortrun a cashgrab and in the long run destructive as hell.

    #74 11 months ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    You obviously dont get it.
    It's actually worse the better they hold up.
    This is just revealing how much of a crud modern companies and manufacturing is.
    Things are actually made to self destruct, and when they do, you're totally at the mercy of the company making it, if it still even exist.
    Manipulation forcing people buying their product is common. Just look at philips hue.
    One of my first post here were that the community would lean heavily on manufacturers sticking with artnet and windows compatible systems.
    Stern spike system is in the shortrun a cashgrab and in the long run destructive as hell.

    Would be great if you can provide good evidence to back up your claims.

    #75 11 months ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    Would be great if you can provide good evidence to back up your claims.

    Which one?
    You mean that spare parts will be harder to get, the more seldom things break?
    Isn't that self evident?

    #76 11 months ago

    Kind of like how the older things are the harder it is to get parts?
    I still don’t “get it” because I look at reliability as a good thing, but whatever.

    #77 11 months ago

    People replace node boards, this is a thing. At some point Stern isn't going to stock them for you.

    This weird head in the sand attitude about not being able to repair these expensive things we own is baffling to me honestly.

    #78 11 months ago
    Quoted from DNO:

    Kind of like how the older things are the harder it is to get parts?
    I still don’t “get it” because I look at reliability as a good thing, but whatever.

    Ofc reliability is a good thing, but the more rare and the more reliable, the harder it will be getting spare parts.

    #79 11 months ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    Would be great if you can provide good evidence to back up your claims.

    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    Which one?
    You mean that spare parts will be harder to get, the more seldom things break?
    Isn't that self evident?

    Are you a politician at your day job? You made a bunch of unsupported claims in post 73 and when I called you out on it you bring up a question no one asked about.
    Good day sir.

    3 weeks later
    #80 10 months ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    Are you a politician at your day job? You made a bunch of unsupported claims in post 73 and when I called you out on it you bring up a question no one asked about.
    Good day sir.

    Oh, sorry for late answer. Lost the thread.
    My point was that for an old game, the more rare it is for stuff to break, the harder it will be getting parts.

    You might feel, it's great to have stuff that almost never break, but when they do, the harder it will be getting replacement parts.

    I'm a physician btw and it's obviously the same in my field. Really rare conditions, get no love from the medical industry, since there's no money in it.

    #81 10 months ago

    Even the LED boards on a current generation machine are an outlandish cost out of warranty if one has a failure. There are few with a hot air solder setup for SMD removal/replacement, let alone the skill or troubleshooting knowledge to do board level repairs.

    1 month later
    #82 9 months ago

    Short term it would be great if these boards were universal and you could get in-stock replacements. Long term, AI is going to figure it all out.

    There are 82 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.

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