(Topic ID: 163499)

License vs Own design


By PeterG

3 years ago



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    #1 3 years ago

    I think this as been discussed in various threads, but would like some thoughts on this. Stern is obvious doing only licensed themes these days and they are quite good in that. But for instance Heighway has difficulty with the Aliens machine. Reading the hassle that gives such a license makes me wonder, why would you want to do that as a starting pinball company. Older machines that are not licensed seems to be the all time classics, like MM, WH2O, AFM, CC, TOTAN. Off course if you do a movie theme a license is the only way to go but why aren't there anymore original own designs anymore. Wouldn't it be easier to get a fun theme that you can control yourself completely?

    #2 3 years ago
    Quoted from PeterG:

    Wouldn't it be easier to get a fun theme that you can control yourself completely?

    Yes.

    Would it sell well and make money for the developer and/or the manufacturer? Unknown. If it ends up being a "no";it can likely ruin the organization.

    #3 3 years ago

    Sure the games you listed are classics but only within pinball circles. If you're trying to reach a larger audience, a license does that easily. For example, look at how many sites not associated with pinball ran a story on the new Ghostbusters machine. A license makes the publicity and sales easy and the gameplay secondary.

    I like the way Spooky started with a non license at a limited run. It helped to get there foot in the door and now they're on to game three. I think if Stern would have treated Whoa Nelly as a limited run, they would have sold much faster.

    #4 3 years ago
    Quoted from dmbjunky:

    I think if Stern would have treated Whoa Nelly as a limited run, they would have sold much faster.

    Whoa Nelly probably sold poorly because it offers the feature set of a forty year old game for the price of a modern game. The perception of sexism didn't help either.

    The point of a license is to capitalize on the publicity and popularity of a well known thing. It gives you a larger user base to start with. You still need a fun pinball, a good license isn't enough.

    #5 3 years ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    You still need a fun pinball, a good license isn't enough.

    Agree. Now Stern seems to know their way around licensing, getting permissions on time for characters and sounds etc. Heighway seems to have some problems with that. It looks in my eyes that Heighway isn't up to that job as I see Virtual Pinball has no issues getting a Aliens machine out with images of Ripley etc. Is licensing for a virtual pinball other than a real one? Does Stern has more 'power' as a bigger game producer...

    #6 3 years ago
    Quoted from PeterG:

    Agree. Now Stern seems to know their way around licensing, getting permissions on time for characters and sounds etc. Heighway seems to have some problems with that...

    Stern has deeper pockets.

    #7 3 years ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    Whoa Nelly probably sold poorly because it offers the feature set of a forty year old game for the price of a modern game. The perception of sexism didn't help either.
    The point of a license is to capitalize on the publicity and popularity of a well known thing. It gives you a larger user base to start with. You still need a fun pinball, a good license isn't enough.

    It's amazing how many people will buy something when it's a limited edition.

    Stern has proven that it doesn't need to be fun to sell machines. They've sold a ton of machines in the past based on the license and when the game came out with lackluster code, no one for sure knew if the game would get any better. It seems only recently that Stern has taken an initiative to update code on older games and ship new games with more complete code.

    #8 3 years ago

    the easiest way to grab the attention and money of someone who's never played pinball before is probably w/ a licensed machine. I watched this first hand w/ people going nuts over a ghostbusters machine. If memory serves correct I believe Gary Stern mentioned they do 3 new machines a year and a vault edition. Considering the talent they have in house, I wish they would attempt a small run of original theme'd games. maybe a 100 to 200 limited run w/ the possible of a larger run if successful. just something out of left-field. maybe go the heighway pinball/pin 2000 route and have a blank cabinet and swappable play field and art in case the run doesn't sell well they can just re purpose the machine & parts for the next line.

    #9 3 years ago

    Seems like there are some sure fire non-licensed themes out there- like a generic soccer that would not have to be tied to FIFA, UEFA or World Cup. Make it easily customizable for avorite teams and it would sell.

    #10 3 years ago

    This is why I am very impressed with Full Throttle. It is a lot easier to make a game with a licensed theme because the story lines, images, characters, video clips, music and sounds are essentially already developed for you. Now that we have LCD displays and stereo sounds this makes it even harder to create a theme from scratch. Gone are the days a few static pictures and a couple of sound effects passed as a theme the way it did when Gorgar or Xenon came out. The money saved on art and IP development can easily pay the licensing fee and maybe add an extra toy on the playfield. Not to mention that in today's world pinball *needs* a recognizable theme more than it did in the past to draw in location players.

    #11 3 years ago

    Today's licensed themes from 30 or 40 years ago are nothing to really get excited about. If they are sticking with outdated licensed themes now, at least they could pick some good ones.

    #12 3 years ago

    It's an easy way to hook players, especially now that most people aren't even aware that pinball machines are still being made.

    #13 3 years ago

    Ben Heck explained how difficult it has been to sell AMH at start. Antonio planned to produce 30 Captain Nemo but he managed to sell half of them only. Scott Gullicks could not get 100 orders for WOOLY.

    People complain about lack of good non-licensed themes... but they simply do not buy them when they show up.

    #14 3 years ago

    Price is a huge barrier with the boutique vendors you mentioned. Pinball machines are expensive to produce. When the economy of scale doesn't apply and you're trying to sell one for upwards of $8k your potential number of buyers goes way down.

    Boutique vendors also don't have experience dealing with licensing. It presents challenges very different than building pinball machines. See Dutch Pinball for more on that issue.

    #15 3 years ago
    Quoted from Tribonian:

    Seems like there are some sure fire non-licensed themes out there- like a generic soccer that would not have to be tied to FIFA, UEFA or World Cup. Make it easily customizable for avorite teams and it would sell.

    Striker Xtreme and Grand Prix are based on the two most popular sports in the world (ok, ignoring any debate over whether auto sports are true sports), and they didn't sell well. Even your team customization of NFL didn't sell well for Stern. I highly doubt any major manufacturer produces a sports themed pin any time soon.

    #16 3 years ago
    Quoted from jayhawkai:

    Striker Xtreme and Grand Prix are based on the two most popular sports in the world (ok, ignoring any debate over whether auto sports are true sports), and they didn't sell well.

    Fishing is just as popular today as when Williams released Fish Tales which sold over 13,000 units. However today's pinball geek may have a hard time biting or even swallowing that kind of unlicensed theme today.

    #17 3 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Fishing is just as popular today as when Williams released Fish Tales which sold over 13,000 units. However today's pinball geek may have a hard time biting or even swallowing that kind of unlicensed theme today.

    I'll defer to the operators and distributors from that era, but I think those numbers are artificially inflated due to B/W's one-sided contracts with distributors.

    #18 3 years ago
    Quoted from jayhawkai:

    I think those numbers are artificially inflated due to B/W's one-sided contracts with distributors.

    Even so, It turned out to be a very popular game that still has many fans today, even without being licensed.

    That being said, as long as Stern keeps giving pinsiders what they ask for, we may never see another quality license or unlicensed theme from them again. Pinsiders in general are asking for the most mundane themes these days. And Stern is delivering. But they aren't the only ones...

    #19 3 years ago
    Quoted from John_I:

    This is why I am very impressed with Full Throttle

    But they've sold like 4 Full Throttles so far.

    Classic unlicensed games are popular because they came out in an era where the arcade was relevant...and they've had time to gain a reputation.

    Current pinball manufacturers don't have time for a game to build a reputation to sell. They need to sell machines NOW. Ghostbusters makes people throw their money in the air before they even play it. America's Most Haunted took forever to get 150 sold. Stern can't operate a profitable manufacturing business on those numbers.

    #20 3 years ago

    Well, fantasy themes have always worked, so why not more games like Swords of Fury?

    #21 3 years ago

    Eh, I might decide to take a crack at this.

    It's not like I can't.... from soup to nuts, I certainly can. The question is, would it be worth it?

    #22 3 years ago
    Quoted from jlm33:

    Ben Heck explained how difficult it has been to sell AMH at start. Antonio planned to produce 30 Captain Nemo but he managed to sell half of them only. Scott Gullicks could not get 100 orders for WOOLY.
    People complain about lack of good non-licensed themes... but they simply do not buy them when they show up.

    Yes and no. No offense to those mentioned, but i also think people are scared to purchase from a start up project of unknowns. Jpop/Predator didnt help from the preorder side. Lawlor's machine will be original with JJP....i bet it does very well

    #24 3 years ago

    Is it still an "original theme" market, anyways? Killing an afternoon at an arcade is more of a novelty now than a pastime, so it's not like there's a row of original theme pins all clamoring for your quarters. The pinball market looks like one of those "gifts for dad" brochures with like, Beatles wall clocks and Rolling Stones mousepads.

    #25 3 years ago

    If it is all about licenses I would like to see a less "obvious" one like all these major bands and huge movies. How about something more current generation like a Rick and Morty themed one ? Or a popular culture theme not requiring a license that people recognize like King Arthur, Spartacus, Vikings (not the movies or tv shows just general) or something along those lines if that makes sense.

    #26 3 years ago

    Go for it. I bet you could sell tens of a generic Vikings-themed game.

    #27 3 years ago

    Original themes require a creative storyline to go along with custom content (music, animations, artwork). At this point most pinball manufacturers are good at making the actual machines but lack the extra level of in-house creativity to go full custom theme, which is why I'm really curious how Lawlor's pin will turn out. He is one that can sell a game on his own reputation, regardless of theme, which is not a luxury most of the other guys have.

    #28 3 years ago

    Man, a viking game would be rad. The high score board could be Valhalla, and you could "play" the voyages and adventures of various famous Vikings. The pops could be a village that you raid, and the ball lock could be a skull with two eyesockets that the locked balls fill, before tumbling out.

    edit: I do find the general wit and creativity of Stern's games to be kind of lacking in comparison to Bally/Williams, who I think had a writing staff and actually worked with Second City for Medieval Madness (and possibly others?). There's something very staid and straightforward about Stern's treatment of source material.

    #29 3 years ago

    Lawlor's pin will be the real test for the original theme market. With JJP established and not being a pre-order, I don't think there will be anything holding back sales if its a winner and the market truely wants original, it should fly. That being said it is risk and I applaud JJP for taking that on. I'm sure it will be watched carefully by the industry. Personally I hope it is a great success and they are well rewarded for taking it, success would likely lead to more unleashing of untethered creativity and fun.

    Myself, I am curently building a reserve for Pat's pin once out, providing of course that its a theme that speaks to me and a fun game to play. Otherwise... Stern would probably get my next dollar... Or nobody, there are some great games out there not fesh off the line I would love to own as well..

    #30 3 years ago

    If they did Wonder Bread, it would seem like an original theme

    #31 3 years ago
    Quoted from Coyo5050:

    How about something more current generation like a Rick and Morty themed one

    That would be amazing...the show's talent would definitely do all custom art, writing, animation and voice overs.

    #32 3 years ago

    I think a sports theme with all the actual names will be difficult. You have to get the rights of these persons and the problem is next year it will be different. WCS did that ok by just getting the countries in and not mentioning any specific players. Do not know if FT has any real names in it, I just do not know these riders by name.
    I think pinball with a great theme and great art would sell, don't need a license for that - look at something like Wrath of Olympus. With some extra toys and knowledge from Stern - that would be a great machine - the theme is already great! I heard someone mention a new Medieval theme or Mars theme with just great gameplay, art and toys.
    So Stern focusses mainly on licenses, but there are other ways to sell things in this world. Why do they not use Brand ambassadors, like watch brands? Or other means to get peoples attention. Some of you guys here are in marketing, there would be better ways to come up with ideas.....

    #33 3 years ago

    Getting back into the hobby after a long hiatus. Looks like Striker Xtreme was just a poor design, particularly the ramps. Haven't ever seen or played one of the NFL machines but didn't that also come out while Stern was still on the front of a learning curve?

    #34 3 years ago

    It's a VERY different market than it was in the 1990s -- or 1980s.

    More than half of it is collectors. They want something that is both original and has depth, or it doesn't hold attention. The route guys want something with flash, current appeal and "pop" to draw quarters. Used to be the collectors didn't exist, but not they do and here's the rub -- it's driven pricing to the point that the route guys can't make money any more with a reasonable per-play cost.

    So who do you appeal to? Duh.

    Is this ideal? No, and it's dangerous for everyone still in the game, because one bad release and you're done. Stern can get away with a couple, but they need games people buy with all their LE + "Pro" +, +, +, or.... boom.

    I'm looking forward to the Lawlor release as well, but I'll reserve judgment. I won't buy on his name, but if it looks promising, I might pop for it. But the price of admission has more than doubled of late, so it's back to "is it worth it?", and more often than not these days my answer is "Nope." It's why I don't own a Hobbit or WOZ at this point.... and if it continues, what does it portend for the industry?

    Not good things, IMHO.

    #35 3 years ago

    A new company will "bother with the hassle" of a license because it guarantees sales.

    Same reason you pay a franchise fee for a Subway instead of "Ray's Diner".

    #36 3 years ago
    Quoted from Tickerguy:

    Not good things, IMHO.

    Operators being priced out of being able to put games on location to earn money is a big death blow for pinball.

    And the fact that pinball machines are now geared towards home collectors that beg for licensed themes until the makers of these games give in shows pinball's soul is dying or already has.

    These are indications that pinball as it was, will never be again. And what was once a staple of pop culture is now a novelty at best.

    #37 3 years ago

    No, no, this is great. If you kill off the incoming youth market by obsessively hoarding all the pins in home collections, nobody will ever play them, and they'll stay mint forever! You know, like gluing your Legos together.

    #38 3 years ago
    Quoted from benheck:

    A new company will "bother with the hassle" of a license because it guarantees sales.
    Same reason you pay a franchise fee for a Subway instead of "Ray's Diner".

    Well great point. But in Europe we see a decline of big brands and a rise of small unique authentic stores. Homebrew beers, cupcake shops, home made fair trade chocolate and real burger stores.....maybe a trend that continues into pinball? Indeed a blockbuster name will attract the first bunch but will they keep getting back if the play is not that good.....

    #39 3 years ago
    Quoted from jlm33:

    Ben Heck explained how difficult it has been to sell AMH at start. Antonio planned to produce 30 Captain Nemo but he managed to sell half of them only. Scott Gullicks could not get 100 orders for WOOLY.
    People complain about lack of good non-licensed themes... but they simply do not buy them when they show up.

    could the Jpop & SkitB stuff have made people apprehensive about WOOLY? I really want to play an AHM but I missed the boat on that since i've only been back into pinball in the last year or two. WOOLY looks awseome too i'm kind of shocked nobody has jumped on that

    Quoted from o-din:

    Operators being priced out of being able to put games on location to earn money is a big death blow for pinball.
    And the fact that pinball machines are now geared towards home collectors that beg for licensed themes until the makers of these games give in shows pinball's soul is dying or already has.
    These are indications that pinball as it was, will never be again. And what was once a staple of pop culture is now a novelty at best.

    YES! thank you. I applaud stern pinball for making machines and keeping pinball alive. But something doesn't sit right w/ me about their strategy... they keep preaching about location pinball, and maybe its just where I live but there is only 1... 1! new stern machine and the operator doesn't take care of it. It's like they're still doing things w/ a 80/90s marketing mentality that arcades still exist and operators are placing machines out on location for people to enjoy and there's just a small group of home owners... i'm sure else where this is the case, but i have to travel an 1-2 hours outside of my area to play current machines... or even older machines. and you should see the looks and hear the responses from people I get for asking if they have a pinball machine

    I would love a new stern. the cost though makes it impossible for me to afford one. Nate on C2C pinball did a decent breakdown of why stern should only build machines and why they should cost x amount, but if you want to get these machines out there, and if your market is basically home collectors now maybe come up w/ a new distribution model... maybe financing. i dunno. just breaks my heart watching one of the coolest things on earth slowly dying for no good reason

    #40 3 years ago

    I still think a well marketed original theme could sell. Problem is it would have to be completely different then the way Stern does things today, where they officially announce a game and then start selling it soon after. You would have to build excitement. The other thing with a licensed theme is you have a built in set of buyers, a number of whom aren't really pinheads. Just people who really like the band, movie, etc. Also I think if you do an original theme, you have to have the code a lot more complete then the ones stern is sending out now. People seem to be able to live with what they get on a licensed them, at least for awhile. I don't think it would be as good if all the reviews were negative on an unlicensed because the code isn't finished/sucks.

    #41 3 years ago
    Quoted from Aphex:

    ... they keep preaching about location pinball, and maybe its just where I live but there is only 1... 1! new stern machine and the operator doesn't take care of it. It's like they're still doing things w/ a 80/90s marketing mentality that arcades still exist and operators are placing machines out on location for people to enjoy and there's just a small group of home owners... i'm sure else where this is the case, but i have to travel an 1-2 hours outside of my area to play current machines...

    Here too. Zero newer games in my area. There are two about an hour and 20 min away. Then nothing again for about another two hours. So if I want to play a halfway decent selection of say 4-5 newish games (say released in the last 7 years and semi maintained)... Its a 3-4 hour drive! And its not like they recently left, its been this way for close to 10 years now.

    So at least in my area, its home collectors 5 serious (a lot more if I go to about a 45 minute radius), anyones guess at casual owners, and operators 0. As much as I would like to say the operator market is supporting pinball and Stern should be building games that allow ops to make a profit, reality at least here is that there are no ops to begin with, so why not build to capture the attention of collectors.

    #42 3 years ago

    On a happy note, we have lots of location pins here in Oregon & Washington state.......

    #43 3 years ago
    Quoted from Insane:

    I still think a well marketed original theme could sell. Problem is it would have to be completely different then the way Stern does things today, where they officially announce a game and then start selling it soon after. You would have to build excitement. The other thing with a licensed theme is you have a built in set of buyers, a number of whom aren't really pinheads. Just people who really like the band, movie, etc. Also I think if you do an original theme, you have to have the code a lot more complete then the ones stern is sending out now. People seem to be able to live with what they get on a licensed them, at least for awhile. I don't think it would be as good if all the reviews were negative on an unlicensed because the code isn't finished/sucks.

    I agree. They're starting to embrace social media a bit more but it could be way better. I'm not knocking whoever's in charge of it there, i just feel there's lots of missed opportunities... but i'm sure there's politics and upper management dictating what can/can't go out for public consumption.

    #44 3 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Operators being priced out of being able to put games on location to earn money is a big death blow for pinball.
    And the fact that pinball machines are now geared towards home collectors that beg for licensed themes until the makers of these games give in shows pinball's soul is dying or already has.
    These are indications that pinball as it was, will never be again. And what was once a staple of pop culture is now a novelty at best.

    Think about the math here folks.

    Pins NIB were $3-4k devices not very long ago. Consider that a route op generally splits the coinbox with the owner of the location, so if it's 50c/play he needs 4 plays to get a buck of gross. Consider also that in general you have to expect that with *routine* (not excellent) maintenance and attention the total cost of operation is probably roughly 50% acquisition expense and the rest is time + travel expense + parts (nobody works for free.)

    So with that model I need *24,000-32,000* plays on that machine to break even all-in, and that assumes I have no financing or cost-of-funds on the machine (which is utter nonsense; time is not free and therefore neither is money, even in today's ultra-low rate environment.) It also, however, assumes zero residual value which is also wrong -- so let's put a $1,000 residual on it.

    That gets me into the 20,000 play range for a game to "be worth it."

    If the average game lasts 2 minutes and it's in play 20% of the time in a given location that is open 8 hours a day (both *extremely* aggressive figures) it gets ~50 plays a day. That means it takes 400 days to "earn out" on operating costs, at which point it actually starts to make money. In reality a 20% "service factor" is fanciful; 5 or 10% is more-likely.

    This is why, by the way, most route machines are in crap condition; the only thing you can shave is the maintenance expense and when machines started to get expensive enough to pressure the ability of them to earn out the first thing the route guys did was shave back their attention to them (and thus their operating expenses.)

    Now double the price of the pin, especially when you add in the cost of the money, and it will never "earn out" for the operator.

    WMS/Bally got out of the business after 1-1/2 games of Pin2k and went after the slot machine market instead. It wasn't hard to see why even with the math at the time. The economics weren't working for the pin route operator and instead of resolving the problem post-WMS/Bally they've gotten twice as bad as they were!

    What has driven the "modern" pricing insanity was collectors and both Stern and (now) JJP's desire to try to capitalize on it. In doing so they've destroyed location games; very few people will pay $1+/play on a route machine and the few that will are only going to do it if it's in impeccable condition (and virtually none ever are.) You CAN'T double the per-play pricing without destroying the total number of plays that get tallied.

    As a result I've not seen a "new" route machine in several years, and as long as the ticket price on the new ones is $8,000 I probably never will again -- and neither will you.

    Eventually the market will "fix" this the same way it always does. Either NIB prices will collapse or the manufacturers will collapse. If the NIB prices collapse then the collector insanity pricing we have now (seriously folks, $5k+ for machines that were $3,000 when brand new?) will collapse as well, and if not then both Stern and JJP will eventually be effectively selling exclusively to collectors, which will work for a little while but ultimately is a doomed business strategy; nobody has infinite space or infinite money and if there's no commercial activity going on at the consuming end of the chain then as the "fill factor" increases the manufacturers eventually run out of people because the collector will refuse to sell at half or less of what he paid for it (unless he needs the money to make the mortgage payment!)

    #45 3 years ago

    Well that is quite an analysis. I think your are right for most of it. Especially the part where we are in the market that a collector can not put another machine in his house and will have to sell any other machine, getting not the price anymore. The nib market wil stall. But when will this happen....if only I knew....

    #46 3 years ago

    Sure. It doesn't pay to route games. And the players can take some of the blame since they continue to think it ought to cost 50 cents, which was the price back in, what 1984? Pinball has ceased to be viable. About five years ago at a show Steve Ritche said Stern would never produce an unlicensed theme game. Of course they did do a run of Woah Nellie, so it's not impossible, and Steve was wrong. Still, it's pretty clear that licensing has taken over as the way to go, with respect to sales. This is also true of t shirt designs and other stuff. The fact that a license limits creativity has resulted in a reduction of interesting and potentially challenging art. In the dying market the real savior is innovation, and this is exactly what industry needs and is deathly afraid of at the same time because it entails risk. Of course if players were willing to step up and drop a fiver to play three games, that would make a huge difference.

    #47 3 years ago
    Quoted from Yilb:

    Sure. It doesn't pay to route games. And the players can take some of the blame since they continue to think it ought to cost 50 cents, which was the price back in, what 1984? Pinball has ceased to be viable. About five years ago at a show Steve Ritche said Stern would never produce an unlicensed theme game. Of course they did do a run of Woah Nellie, so it's not impossible, and Steve was wrong. Still, it's pretty clear that licensing has taken over as the way to go, with respect to sales. This is also true of t shirt designs and other stuff. The fact that a license limits creativity has resulted in a reduction of interesting and potentially challenging art. In the dying market the real savior is innovation, and this is exactly what industry needs and is deathly afraid of at the same time because it entails risk. Of course if players were willing to step up and drop a fiver to play three games, that would make a huge difference.

    I love innovation, but innovation is irrelevant in "saving pinball". It's amazing pinball is still around - you can thank innovative LOCATIONS for that (like barcades), nostalgia and millennial hipster types who want to relive an era they didn't exist for....and the influx of home collectors. The typical hole in the wall arcade or random location isn't going to be a huge money maker for ANY coin-op gaming - video or pinball. The location concept is key, and pinball will benefit from innovations in that area.

    #48 3 years ago
    Quoted from Yilb:

    And the players can take some of the blame since they continue to think it ought to cost 50 cents, which was the price back in, what 1984?

    Most non-players probably balk at spending more than 75c unless they're drunk because it seems like a waste of money to spend a dollar or more on, like, forty-five seconds of apparently meaningless gameplay.

    #49 3 years ago
    Quoted from trunchbull:

    No, no, this is great. If you kill off the incoming youth market by obsessively hoarding all the pins in home collections, nobody will ever play them, and they'll stay mint forever! You know, like gluing your Legos together.

    My impression is rather that a large part of the pinball machines which are in home collections now would be otherwise rotting on some junkyard.
    There is no substantial youth market for pinball, the target group for pinball is a mix of 35+ guys reliving their youth at home or in barcades, some younger hipsters that think retro is cool (a trend which will pass) and random people that just throw money in anything that resembles their favorite theme. The last group doesn't care if it's a pinball machine or a video arcade game, if it's e.g. "Lord of the Rings" they will play it.

    Actually what made me love pinball back in the day was WMS Indy. Just because I loved the artwork & music and the dogfight sounds when hitting the ramps. I could not have cared less about any rules, balltimes or whatever else, just whacking the ball around, trying to hit ramps or start multiball was enough - it was INDIANA JONES after all!

    Bottom line is, noone is keeping the machines from the crowds, us "hoarders" are the only ones that care about these silly oldschool machines at all. Without the collectors the industry would be dead and buried since a long time.

    #50 3 years ago
    Quoted from Yilb:

    It doesn't pay to route games. And the players can take some of the blame since they continue to think it ought to cost 50 cents, which was the price back in, what 1984? Pinball has ceased to be viable.

    Blame isn't the right word here. When pinball thrived home entertainment consisted of TV, radio, home audio. Early console systems were unable to deliver the same quality of gameplay available in the arcades. For a few hundred dollars today's consoles deliver the same picture and audio quality in a package sized for the home. Technology has now made it orders of magnitude cheaper and simpler to socialize & play games without paying $1 per game. There is no one to blame. Technology improved and society moved on.

    How many bowling alleys exist today and how busy are they compared to forty years ago? They are still around but I bet most of us don't know anyone in a bowling league. Used to be far more popular than today. You can't replicate bowling in the home either but most people don't care to. They have cheaper alternatives.

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    Playfield - Other
    Pin Monk
    $ 149.00
    From: $ 19.99
    $ 369.00
    Cabinet - Decals
    Mircoplayfields
    $ 7,499.00
    Pinball Machine
    Little Shop Of Games
    $ 24.00
    Playfield - Other
    Pin Monk
    $ 11.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    £ 45.00
    Lighting - Led
    PinballToys
    $ 28.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    The MOD Couple
    € 59.80
    Lighting - Backbox
    Freddys Pinball Paradise
    From: $ 175.00
    Gameroom - Decorations
    Pinball Photos
    From: $ 218.00
    From: $ 9.99
    Eproms
    Matt's Basement Arcade
    $ 40.00
    From: € 0.39
    Rubber/Silicone
    Scandinavian Pinball
    $ 40.00
    Lighting - Backbox
    Rock Custom Pinball
    $ 19.99
    Playfield - Plastics
    Docquest Pinball Mods
    From: $ 42.00
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    ModFather Pinball Mods
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