(Topic ID: 87616)

Liberal vs Conservative


By davidkam

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 46 posts
  • 28 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Caucasian2Step
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 5 years ago

No, this is not a political post. I have a Gold Strike, and there appears to be Liberal vs Conservative settings for where certain things are mounted, for example the sling shots. What does this mean exactly?

I'm new here, didn't see a newbie sub-forum, so apologies if this is annoyingly Pinball 101 stuff.

#2 5 years ago

Haha! We have a no politics rule so I came in to lock this sucker. Who knew it wouldn't be about politics! Good luck in gaining the answer to your question!

#3 5 years ago

You can set certain posts in several positions that can help a player (liberal) obvious example being the side/outlanes being closed off a little tighter. Upper roll overs are a very slight bit easier if the configuration is changed to allow the ball to go into the middle lanes on some games as well. There are other examples, but you get the idea.

#4 5 years ago

"Liberal" settings make the game easier; "Conservative" settings make the game harder. There are both mechanical and electrical settings on games to adjust them according to the operator's preference.

#5 5 years ago

Man there are so many Bill Clinton jokes I want to enter in this thread. LOL.

#6 5 years ago

i set all my games to all conservative settings - i like them as difficult as possible

#7 5 years ago
Quoted from davidkam:

No, this is not a political post. I have a Gold Strike, and there appears to be Liberal vs Conservative settings for where certain things are mounted, for example the sling shots. What does this mean exactly?
I'm new here, didn't see a newbie sub-forum, so apologies if this is annoyingly Pinball 101 stuff.

I came here to say Pinside is not the place for that haha. Sorry for jumping to conclusions.

#8 5 years ago

The thing to remember is all those labels were provided to the point of view of the operator, i.e. you (as an operator) are giving something out liberally (a lot) or conservatively (a little).

-7
#9 5 years ago

Life imitates art. Conservative means having less fun.

#10 5 years ago

Is the new Zero Tolerance policy in play for this thread?

#11 5 years ago
Quoted from pinball_keefer:

The thing to remember is all those labels were provided to the point of view of the operator, i.e. you (as an operator) are giving something out liberally (a lot) or conservatively (a little).

That is a helpful observation. Thanks for posting it.

-3
#12 5 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

Is the new Zero Tolerance policy in play for this thread?

That rule is specific to the one fan club thread. Post as you normally would in other threads but please do not collaterally attack the rule in the WOZ thread in here.

#13 5 years ago

Well then.

image-626.jpg
#14 5 years ago

Ultimately the liberal and conservative settings were there to allow the operator to adjust the play of the game based on the coins going into the game and the number of replays the game was giving out. Too many replays and make it more conservative. Too few and make it more liberal.

What I heard was Gottlieb's rule of thumb for a proper set up was that a player should win one game for every two games paid for. That was the balance that made the games appealing enough to keep you coming back without making it too easy.

Mike O.

#15 5 years ago

The thing to keep in mind is that whatever your game is currently set for, liberal or conservative, there may or may not be holes in the playfield for the other settings. So if you want to change, you may have to drill pilot holes.

What I'm not sure about is how they shipped by default. I know most games got diagrams for post placement, like yours, but no clue if default for shipping was liberal or conservative. They certainly didn't leave the posts out to let the operator decide. It's entirely possible that the distributor made the decision. 'Give me 50 Gold Strikes, conservative.' I seem to remember that Gottlieb did mark the holes anyway. So if you wanted to change settings, you didn't have to measure. Just remove the wood screws and relocate the posts.

Gold Strike is one of the many flavors of El Dorado. One of the best EM's ever built IMO. Enjoy.

#16 5 years ago

Funny thing in OZ the Liberal Party is the conservative side

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from DanQverymuch:

Life imitates art. Conservative means having less fun.

It's more fun to be challenged, not having everything handed to you without any effort on your part.

#18 5 years ago

I would say that Gottlieb always set the games to conservative at the factory. Most games I have worked on, have the posts set that way, with the more liberal positions having just the factory dimple, but not having been used.

-1
#19 5 years ago

The liberal setting will cost you more to play.

#20 5 years ago

I would just remove the slings, but hey, I'm a social anarchist so what do I know?

#21 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

What I heard was Gottlieb's rule of thumb for a proper set up was that a player should win one game for every two games paid for. That was the balance that made the games appealing enough to keep you coming back without making it too easy.

I've heard this about the amount of games won/paid for, I have to say that I don't think I ever get close to that ratio (including matches!). Thankfully they are all 'free' at home.

In regards to liberal vs. conservative post settings, it is certainly something that is easy enough to try it each way. I usually set side drains to liberal to increase length of ball time if nothing else.

#22 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

What I heard was Gottlieb's rule of thumb for a proper set up was that a player should win one game for every two games paid for.

wow apparently I suck at pinball!

#23 5 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

wow apparently I suck at pinball!

you ain't alone...

#24 5 years ago

mine are pretty much set up in the liberal positions, with higher scores set for replay...

that way i get longer ball times, but still have to work hard to beat the game...

#25 5 years ago

I suppose I have my games set fairly liberally. My goal is for people to enjoy themselves. If I were holding a tournament, obviously I'd need to adjust settings if not flipper and post positions. But when I show off my games, it's usually not for people who are pinball wizards. I want people to reach multiball. I want their games to last more than 30 seconds. I want them to see everything lit up, hear Rudy flip out, and receive commendation from Picard for dispatching the Borg.

#26 5 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

I suppose I have my games set fairly liberally. My goal is for people to enjoy themselves. If I were holding a tournament, obviously I'd need to adjust settings if not flipper and post positions. But when I show off my games, it's usually not for people who are pinball wizards. I want people to reach multiball. I want their games to last more than 30 seconds. I want them to see everything lit up, hear Rudy flip out, and receive commendation from Picard for dispatching the Borg.

won't get any arguments from me... there aren't exactly pinball wizards showing up at my door, and if it's too hard either my wife or bestie can't keep the ball in play, and they won't even press the start button...

my bestie loves "4 square", and it's primarily because he can occasionally beat it... he has ZERO chance to beat some other machines...

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from jesster64:

The liberal setting will cost you more to play.

You have it backwards

Liberal means it costs less to play, but it costs more to operate.

Most will want to play a liberal when they are on the receiving end but once they are on the operating end they turn to conservative values pretty quickly.

#28 5 years ago

can we keep it about pinball please ....

#29 5 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

can we keep it about pinball please ....

If you're replying to my post, I was literally talking about pinball settings.

#30 5 years ago
Quoted from Don1:

If you're replying to my post, I was literally talking about pinball settings.

sorry, I thought people were getting "clever", my mistake

#31 5 years ago

Nevermind, my whole reply was stupid... I'll just say..

The outlanes on my LOTR are as wide as possible.

-3
#32 5 years ago

Wait. What?

Post edited by moderator: No politics please

#33 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

Ultimately the liberal and conservative settings were there to allow the operator to adjust the play of the game based on the coins going into the game and the number of replays the game was giving out. Too many replays and make it more conservative. Too few and make it more liberal.
What I heard was Gottlieb's rule of thumb for a proper set up was that a player should win one game for every two games paid for. That was the balance that made the games appealing enough to keep you coming back without making it too easy.
Mike O.

Really? When was this rule of thumb in effect?

Some of those 60s and 70s EM Gottlieb games would take all of your lunch money in a heartbeat. To this day I don't think many people are beating that era of games 1 out of 3 times. And they didn't even have automatic progressive scoring adjustments like modern games.

Any EM demigods out there that can win games 33% of the time consistently?

#34 5 years ago

33% seems high to me. I would say around 15%. Depending on the setting of the scoring.

My EM pins are set on factory, Liberal. For Solar City I can reach the replay at 80,000 at a ratio of 1 in 7 plays.

#35 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballcorpse:

Really? When was this rule of thumb in effect?
Some of those 60s and 70s EM Gottlieb games would take all of your lunch money in a heartbeat. To this day I don't think many people are beating that era of games 1 out of 3 times. And they didn't even have automatic progressive scoring adjustments like modern games.
Any EM demigods out there that can win games 33% of the time consistently?

not a demigod, but i did stay at a holiday inn express last night... i know that a 33% winning percentage doesn't exist here... and if it did, i'd likely bump up the replay scores... i want to beat it, but i need to lose enough to make it tick me off, if you know what i mean...

it's odd... for me, some games run hot and cold, and some are more consistent... with zero scientific evidence to back it up, they break down roughly along 3" vs. 2" flippers (again, for me)... that's roughly, there are obviously examples that will be outliers...

3" games i can sometimes turn on and beat it seemingly every time... and the next day, turn the same game on and play it 100 times in a row without beating it... whereas 2" games seem to have a more consistent roi, i won't beat them a bunch of times in a row, but i don't get shut out either...

digressing a bit... this may have to do with the fact that when taken as a whole, 3" games are more finesse oriented vs. 2" games are more brute force... some days, my "touch" is better than others (see: chris on a golf course... )... but i can pretty much deliver brute force on a daily basis...

#36 5 years ago
Quoted from pinball_customs:

Wait. What?
Post edited by moderator: No politics please

Aww come on! It was a joke about CANADIAN politics! No one cares about that anyway

#37 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballcorpse:

Really? When was this rule of thumb in effect?
Some of those 60s and 70s EM Gottlieb games would take all of your lunch money in a heartbeat. To this day I don't think many people are beating that era of games 1 out of 3 times. And they didn't even have automatic progressive scoring adjustments like modern games.
Any EM demigods out there that can win games 33% of the time consistently?

Back in the day, from 1974 to 1979 when I developed my pinball skills, on Gottlieb EM's primarily, I would say the win 1 for every 2 paid was a minimum for me. Games were 2 for a quarter in 1974 and evolved to 3 for 50 cents about 78 or so. There were many times that I would play for free, or at least get 4-5 games or more for my quarter.

When a game was new to me I might put in a couple of dollars before I really started winning anything. But once I knew the game the return improved. On a familiar game it was not unreasonable to play for free, or even make an extra quarter, by selling off the credits on the game to someone waiting to play it.

Granted, there were sessions that I didn't win a thing and ran out of money quickly. There was one afternoon in the dorm game room where four of us played 100 games on a single quarter on a Gottlieb Jungle. That brought the average way up.

At home I like to think I set my games up similarly to the win one for every two games played approach. What I find is that a more challenging game, like Quick Draw, or Card Whiz, will kick my butt for the first several games. And then after I've reacquainted myself with it, I'm playing for free if I watch the credits on the game. One exception to this right now is my 1965 Ice Revue. It was brutal after I shopped it out. Couldn't win squat. I flattened the slope just the littlest bit and now it is about right on the win one for every two played scheme. It plays a little slow/flat, but the return is about right to keep my interest.

Mike O.

#38 5 years ago

I set both my games to the liberal post settings. (there are pilot holes, but they're WAY too tight for the factory screws - if the screw is under plastics, I just use a drywall screw. If not, I'll re-pilot the pilot hole bigger before using the factory screws). Longer ball times (on a game that too often is less than 3 minutes for my guests) means way more fun.

If I start to win too many credits, I'll just bump the replay scores higher.

#39 5 years ago
Quoted from pinball_customs:

Aww come on! It was a joke about CANADIAN politics! No one cares about that anyway

I was the one who edited it. Your post above had me choke on my water I was laughing so hard! Good stuff.

#40 5 years ago

Just FYI- and to second a prior post, in my experience, some games have holes for both a liberal and conservative post placement- many (in my limited experience) do NOT. At least my Gottlieb shipped with holes only for the conservative (drains more often) position. I have toyed with the idea of drilling new holes but decided to leave it alone and play more and get better. I wonder if every manufacturer did this and any play field with holes at the liberal position has been drilled??? Seemed a little odd to me that they would diagram it in the manual as to how to set them up and then not drill the holes for you but its pretty obvious that this did not occur at least some of the time.

And finally- yeah- if I could win a free game anything close to 30% of the time I would quit my job and sell off my credits to the kids at the arcade!

I am just glad I am paying to play by opening up my games and grabbing a handful of quarters to refill the jar- makes sucking at pinball a lot more tolerable and eases the grab a drill and put holes in the game thoughts.

#41 5 years ago

I've never seen an EM Gottlieb that had factory conservative/liberal post settings lack the hole dimpling for both positions.

#42 5 years ago

I looked on my Surf Champ and there's only one set of holes. I could look closer to see if there are dimples, but I do not remember seeing them. I would be afraid to drill new ones without an indication of where they should be.

#43 5 years ago

Surf Champ does have liberal/conservative post settings depicted on the playfield layout diagram. The dimples can be subtle though, as they fill in with the screening ink. And they're covered up by the posts (the spacing between the two positions is very small, and a post will cover them both).

#44 5 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I was the one who edited it. Your post above had me choke on my water I was laughing so hard! Good stuff.

All good, brother.

#45 5 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Surf Champ does have liberal/conservative post settings depicted on the playfield layout diagram. The dimples can be subtle though, as they fill in with the screening ink. And they're covered up by the posts (the spacing between the two positions is very small, and a post will cover them both).

Thanks DirtFlipper, I'll take a closer look

#46 5 years ago

I open up the outlanes as wide as I can. I also tighten up the targets as much as I can. The meaner the game, the better I play and the easier it is when I get to competition. Enter my basement at your own risk!!!

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