This should be an interesting conversation, I'm looking forward to the answers from modders that sell their products to the public.
I have seen plenty of paperwork with "do this at your own risk" but I wonder how that would actually hold up in court if someone proved negligence on the electrical design that caused a fire.
-Mike

I would imagine that mist mods so aren't being tested for compliance for UL, CE, FCC, etc. I'm not an expert in this realm, but something to look into.

Most mod sellers usually sell with the verbiage and (hopefully) the understanding that these parts aren’t “official” and it’s an at your own risk kind of thing. Of course unless you’re buying the official stuff from Stern.

Interesting topic.

I've gotten calls from people or their techs wondering what they could have damaged.

I don't know. I don't know the mod. I don't know what they did. And if a connector fits, doesn't mean it goes there.

I'd seen brand new pinball machines with no games played on them yet. Severely damaged. Your warranty doesn't cover this.

LTG : )

Let’s say a mod does burn down your house.

First off, you have insurance to cover you, your own home owners insurance.

Let’s say that doesn’t cover everything, or there is more harm you want to allege, like bodily injury. So now you have a negligence claim against the mod designer. Is it worth it to file suit? You will likely have to sue them in their own home state of residence, not the state in which you live. You’ll spend years arguing over fault and damages. And then you may . . . may . . . get a judgment that you now have to collect. If the judgment is for any appreciable amount, will the mod maker even have money to pay? Are you going to go after his or her house, garnish his or her wages? This isn’t like suing Sony after all.

My guess is a lot of mod makers just don’t see it as an appreciable risk. But if you really want to eliminate the risk, then probably the best thing is to set up an LLC and get general liability insurance.

I will note that despite what I said, some people are just irrational and will try to sue for anything. So, if it were me, I would be conservative and get insurance. At least they will pay for your legal defense if someone does try to sue.

My guess would be most mod makers have never even thought of this scenario.

Even if you put a disclaimer in, it doesn’t stop someone from suing you and you having to pay legal fees to defend yourself. So, again, insurance is your friend if you want to be risk adverse.

And after the dust has settled. Insurance fixes what ever needs fixing.

Then that company within the insurance company starts looking for how or where they can get their money back.

LTG : )

You can use this site to search for a product liability lawyer near you. I’d send one or two an email, see if they think it’s worth you coming in for a consultation.
https://injury.findlaw.com/product-liability/what-is-product-liability.html

I'm sure one can find a fine upstanding lawyer willing to sue for whatever you think is right if your pockets are deep enough. No guarantees on your preferred outcome though.

Why not reach out the major mod makers and ask what they do.
Could be helpful

I believe you can buy liability insurance as a business to protect you. There is definitely a lawyer that will sue for anything.

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A liability issue is unlikely, but that makes the insurance for it inexpensive, so it might be worth it to a worrywart.

Probably right. They're not blowing up the thread with "what I did was..." stories.

The only thing I can see if a mod shorts or malfunctions and the wire is under gauged it could overheat. Most mods run off the games power and ones I've seen seem to be ok. If a mod were to malfunction it should blow the fuse of the voltage supply.

No idea if the mod makers hear anything. People post here when they install a mod and it doesn't work.

I do get tech support calls when they blow stuff up.

LTG : )

Lol... yah insurance is one of those things you ignore or cross your fingers until you need it.

If you are selling a product you need liability insurance and yes its expensive.

I got a tech support call to fix a game that had several issues. It was recently purchased and showed up with a bunch of alligator clipped mods on it. It seemed that the clips shorted out and did a few funky things to damage the game. (It's always hard to tell what exactly happened coming in after the fact, because the owner did try to do some stuff before contacting me.) It took some board work, replacing a burnt out coil, and some burnt out bulbs. One of the mods seemed totally dead.

The person who sold it to my customer did pony up and pay the repair bill, and for me to properly solder the mods in place. But I thought it was insanely risky to ship a game like that.

here is all you gotta do if you sell products... just watch TV during the day and evening, pretty much any local programming or news and make note of how many lawyer commercials come on.

In any given day 100 maybe? Now... commercials are expensive so how do lawyers afford such things? They sue companies for all kinds of shit.

If you sell a product that could electrocute someone or cause them to electrocute themselves or installing it could accidentally cut their finger off.. or could damage their property.... or even if they think its scary and it causes them to lose sleep and causes "emotional distress"

People will sue for just about anything these days and there are no lack of lawyers to take the case.

I've looked into this some and haven't been able to convince myself that it's worth the trouble. I'm no lawyer but this is what I've come to understand:
- An LLC is a good first step at protecting yourself but it is not fool proof. Legal arguments can be made to come after you personally.
- If a part you use (like a 5 volt supply) goes bad the lawsuits have to come after you first before they go after the supply manufacturer.
- Folks always seem to find ways to misuse things in ways you hadn't thought of (this one is based on first hand knowledge).
- Things I have in mind don't have enough financial upside to offset lawsuits or even unhappy customers.

So for now I build mostly for myself.

/Mark

70% of the worlds lawyers practice in the US.

OP I believe your concerns are valid, especially if your mods require separate power shut off or similar, easily forgotten, steps for safe use. I also assume your mods are not being tested for compliance with applicable electrical standards, etc.

At a minimum, you should have an LLC to maybe avoid personal liability for a catastrophic event.

Definitely want liability insurance to cover any damages or injuries caused by your products, but it will be difficult to find and expensive because you don’t have any official testing or govt approvals. Maybe Lloyd’s of London type coverage, but will be too expensive.

You should also include with your mod a very clear warning page. You can look at warning pages from electric heaters, power tools, pinball machines, and other devices to see examples of language. You need to state there is no warranty of any kind and that buyer assumes all risks. You need as much warning language as possible and it needs to be included with mod and maybe on box or package and on a sticker on the power supply itself.

Of course it would be best to consult a lawyer, but no one ever wants to pay a lawyer.

Oh, I am an injury lawyer.

In the example you gave, a house fire, it is unlikely there would be sufficient proof that fire came from your mod specifically. But if it was determined to be the cause, you would like to be covered by some insurance and a detailed warning.

1. You need an LLC. Cheap to setup and highly worth it.
2. If you want your LLC to survive a lawsuit you need liability insurance.
3. Anyone who sells anything as a hobby that can be misused by stupid people to result in bad things happening opens themselves to liability of their own personal assets. Is that a real risk ? Well do you own a house ? If so it’s a real risk.

Interesting topic but also consider Stern's warning in the manual - any slight changes voids the warranty and puts it back to the owner. You may develop a mod and sell it with all good intention of providing a simple install with a clear and concise manual but if the purchaser misunderstands your manual or puts it into an already modded machine where quite possibly it has some dodgy installs performed in it (maybe by a previous owner) - where does the onus sit.

I sell a mod for a 1993 game with a very clear manual and use Comet's plug in matrix system to connect my lighting to the games GI and feature lighting and noted I put in a warning at the back of my manual and always state before buying that people read the manual prior as you do get some interesting questions / statements. Sometimes it is also good to have these warnings just to protect your reputation as there is always one that did not read the manual and then abuses you publicly.

Personally this is my limit of selling mods - bolt in mods with plug and play lighting from Comet Pinball. I see alarm bells when modders sell powered mods that use alligator clips - with vibration they can drop off and potential arc and cause a fire.

screen-capture-4 (resized).png

in US games there is an outlet in the game - in the coin box area (in 90's Bally / WMS) and pretty sure that turns off when the machine is turned off - Europe and Aus machines do not have this.

pinballs are one of those products that are serviced by owners or un/authorised service techs and over time have already have mods added etc and once this happens I believe all liability / risk sits with the machine owner.

eg
With a new car - when new you get it serviced at the approved service outlets and once you go to unauthorized Joe Blow around the corner as he is cheaper the warranty is void.
With a TV - break the seal the warranty is void and then it's at the owners risk

Games of the 90's have been serviced and hacked by god knows who over the last 30 years, then new Sterns have a very limited warranty of I think 60-90 days and even installing LED's voids the warranty so they wipe there hands of it - back onto the customer.

I think it would be different and you be potentially liable if you supplied a mod and it instantly blew up a heap of stern boards - but comes down to:
- your manual,
- capability of the buyer,
- the hacks the machine already has or
- a faulty mod
Therefore 2 items sit with you (point 1 & 4) so you ensure the manual is very detailed and almost foolproof and then you bench test prior and maybe include a step in the manual to get the customer to bench testing before going into the game to illuminate that risk of a faulty mod killing a game. The other 2 sit with a the buyer.

Personally I would find a way to design a mod to turn off when the game is turned off. I would do a real detailed manual as well as so warranty void notes in the manual.

I have a re-import WCS, it has the standard service outlet that requires a dongle cable, and it is always on.

Service outlets are supposed to be always on - you're not going to be soldering wires with the machine powered on.

I wasn't sure hence stating - pretty sure but I sure a few people hooked up to it with some mods and the power packs turned off when the game turned off.

Prove it. Kind of a silly conversation of "whatifism." Did your buyer install the mod correctly? Were other mods also installed? Were they drinking alcohol when they installed it? If you feel you are making something that is potentially dangerous then maybe dont do it. If you are making something the is 5v or 12v I think you are over examining the potential risks.

Legalese and liability aside... I would never sell a mod that "clips in" or uses high voltage (stick to 12VDC or less)... just not worth the risk. Plopping aftermarket power-bricks in the unit is also risky... you have to be sure that those things have passed all of their certs. You cant even assume that the machine the mod is going into is in proper working order... and the person installing the mod has a clue.

Since you keep asking the same question over and over I think you know the answer..

If you are risk averse (which you seem to be) and selling a product you need insurance...

You of course do not have to have it but anyone at any time can sue you for pretty much anything.

Even if you are just a person and not selling anything if you have any net worth to protect you should have umbrella insurance.

Product liability law is complex, and the situations where it is triggered are varied. A company that makes curling irons certainly has insurance. And, they work with their lawyers and their insurance companies to mitigate their risk. They also have deeper pockets making them more attractive to sue. So the risk is greater as well.

The theme of this thread is, if you want protection, find an insurance broker and talk to them to get appropriate insurance.

Not in the US.
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0138-auto-warranties-routine-maintenance