Getting hung up on or relying any one word in an ad (HOU, Mint, Excellent, etc.) is useless. Look at the pictures to judge whether to go look at it in person. Rely upon what you see in person to make your own judgement.

Hahaha

Yeah. Very gray area.
I've had a machine advertised NIB except that the seller took it out, updated the code, and tested it.

I'm usually hard on myself when I sell things. I don't ever call my stuff mint because it isn't.

I've pulled machines out from basements that have sat for decades. Maybe a few hundred plays. But they are far from mint.

Just ban the words, Mint, Minty, HUO, home used only and Shopped. Problem solved!

Because people are idiots. A "restored" car is worth much less than an original in great condition. Pinball collectors either don't seem to grasp this concept or don't care. Either way, you have to do what makes you happy, so game on! I will only consider restoring a game that is in "part it out" condition.

I think it's you who are failing to grasp the concept. Pinball machines and cars are two different animals. You are assuming that just because something is true in one hobby, that it must be true in all hobbies? The fact is that most people in the hobby would be willing to pay more for a HEP game than a NIB version of the same game. To say that all these people are "idiots" seems rather shortsighted.

If you look at the origin of the term, the only acceptable definition is exactly as it was when it was made. no damage and definitely not restored! I would say very few machines can be labeled as "mint" after they've been played. If you find ANY wear, it's not mint.

That depends on the car, who restored it (and to what level) and what your idea of "great" is. If it's a freakin' time capsule car, sure. Uh-oh, what do i mean by "time capsule"? Doesn't matter, carguments don't work here, anyhow.

Dirty mouth!

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The internet lifeguard has spoken!

This is long winded sorry...

You see, "paying more for what you want" and "destroying the originality of an item" are two different things to me. People pay whatever they pay because that's the item they want. I am allowed to call them idiots for modifying an original NIB game if I want.

In the example given by chuckwurt, that person is an idiot.

Cars and pins are not all that different animals. They are both examples of restorable collectible Americana items. Regarding American collectibles, changing the original presentation of a NIB manufactured item (pinball) devalues it's value and collectibility considerably in nearly every single case.

Now, if you don't consider pinball a collectible manufactured item, I suppose you are not an idiot to spend more for a restored example, over a very nice original. You could just be spending your disposable income on whatever game you want to play. That's great.

However, if you buy an original NIB item, and pay someone to change it from that state to a "better state" because you think it will hold it's value long term, your money is much better spent that way, and it will make it "more collectible", you fall more into the idiot category.

In a time beyond your own pinball desires, the restored example will always be lees desirable. Sometimes pinball is more about preservation than it is about restoration. How many "restored" examples of pinball machines are at the PAPA facility or at the PHOF in Vegas? To my knowledge, there are NONE. That is important to me because they present the games in their original glory and the games play EXACTLY like they always played in original (added--> "on location") condition. Some people don't prefer that, it's all good.

Once you auto-clear them and add mods, you make them something else that never existed with that historical and nostalgic coin operated item. Classic collectibles [anything here] ALL share this same dynamic.

I don't know a single collectible hobby where an original in great condition is not ALWAYS preferred (and more valuable) over a "high-end" restored example. Does not really matter if it's a jukebox, classic car, wooden toy, pinball, video game, coin, sports card, ect.

Mint is how it came out of the box condition

CQ restored is much nicer and is considered EYE CANDY

I agree on both of your definitions if you remove the "much nicer" part.

then why do people pay more for modded games?

no they don't

They don't. Well, I don't unless it's exactly what I want (doesn't happen that often).

Regarding the papa/phof comment...
They do play more like they originally did when they were at locations in America, over a resorted example of the same game.

They break down just the same as a restored game.

I won't even consider a heavily modded game..That's just me. I like them oem, or close to.

Kudos to Snyper who hit the nail on the head about collectibles.

For example, refininishing and restoring a classic collectable guitar absolutely destroys it's value. People pay through the nose for an unrestored vintage guitar with it's crackling finish as compared to any restoration of the same item. I am certainly glad I had the sense to sell my classic Gibson in as-is condition.

So you are saying a HEP pin is worth less than a NIB? Guess a Shelby is worth less than a stock Mustang too.

Welcome to pinball.

You keep using the word "preferred" as if there is something intrinsically more valuable about an original vs. a restored pin. I'd argue that the value is all in the eye of the beholder. Yes, there are some collectors out there who are willing to pay a huge premium for original pins in great condition. There are more people, however, that won't. At the end of the day, the only thing that truly gives an object its value is what it is worth to the person buying it. You are arguing that people who prefer HEPs to originals are somehow wrong, and I couldn't disagree more. Heck, there are some people who would take an MMr over a NIB MM. Are these people wrong? No. They simply have a different set of values than you and I.

Edit:

After thinking it over some more, I've come to the conclusion that the reason we are not on the same page is because we are arguing from two completely different perspectives. You are coming at it from the perspective of the pure collector, and I am coming at it from the perspective of the typical player/hobbyist. Because of this, I believe it's possible for both of us to be correct.

CQ is a loaded term in pinball, it could mean any of the following:

1. Original condition and Mint (nothing repro, no restoration)
2. Restored to better than NIB (Mint, but with better clear coat, higher-res decals, added bling)
3. Mint

In most collectible hobbies a "collector quality" item is nothing short of #1, which is also similar to the the criteria museums use to seek items... the best possible sample of an unenhanced original, no repro, no eye candy.

no but a restored Shelby is worth less than a some condition original.

Not really saying this at all. To me, if the HEP pin plays the way I want it to play, it is worth more to me (don't think money value here, think playable value) than the NIB. The reason is because I can't play the NIB pin before I buy it. HEP-ing a NIB game makes no sense to me but like I said, others can spend money on whatever they want.

The preferred word was used in a statement not only pertaining to pinball.

"I don't know a single collectible hobby where an original in great condition is not ALWAYS preferred (and more valuable) over a "high-end" restored example."

Pinball is a possible exception to this statement, but that does not change the fact that MOST (not all) collectible communities and items use this stated preference. I will admit that... with pinball specifically, it is evaluated on a game-by-game basis and seems to be much less universal for the entire community.

I also want to reiterate that the way that a pinball table plays is changed so dramatically when adding something like auto-clear to it's surface, it derails far enough away from the original presentation of how it played, that I do not desire to play it as much as I would an original table. A lot of others share this feeling. A lot do not. That doesn't bother me at all. Collect and play what you like!

Think of this though. How much would it cost to take a HEP restore and put it back to NIB condition? Would it even be possible? Would it make the game less "valuable" in money or playability? Let's use the NIB example of a Fish Tales (just to throw out a random game I don't often see NIB). The guy that takes a NIB FT and pays for a HEP-like restore is an idiot. You are not going to convince me otherwise. One less original FT in like new shape that can not easily be reversed to the way it once was NIB. Congrats for destroying possibly the best example of an original FT ever. You can always "restore". I have just never seen the value in that over original. You can't always get it back to NIB condition. It would always be cheaper to find a beat to death FT to use in this example and you wouldn't place the perfect example game into a state that it can't be reversed from.

Machines like this are often described in ads as "excellent original condition", so I guess mint is somewhere just above this

image001.jpg

For me, it's quite simple. I expect mint to be "not a flaw"

I don't care if It's original / restored..as far as the word "mint" pertains to.
Original / restored is a different or additional consideration in what is being described.

"minnnnnnnt...."

mint.jpg

So is this true... a NIB BBB is worth less then a HEP BBB....wrong!

Yeah, it does depend on the title used in said example.

Robert M. Lee is a prominent collector of both firearms and automobiles, one of a handful of men on the planet who is a genuine expert in both fields at the highest level.

“To a serious gun collector, condition is everything,” he told me. “The difference between cars and guns is that there are many more guns in fine to pristine condition, even guns hundreds of years old, than there are automobiles. Automobile collectors really do not have a choice, because mint original specimens are so rare.

“When it comes to gun restoration, there are two principles. If a piece is in fine condition it should not be touched; and, if a piece is extremely rare or one of kind, it should not be touched regardless of condition.

“If you have a gun that is in shabby condition, and there are thousands of them around – the Winchester 94 is a perfect example – then proper restoration will give you a really nice example of a rifle you otherwise could not afford.”

Because what they do is a different level of "NIB"? One guy got an extra layer of clear on his PF, it looks incredible and won't have any wear issues, metal gets polished as well as other items. It probably is cheaper than sending an old game in so I wouldn't look at it in terms of mega price. This was also years back so perhaps with a bit better quality coming from stern this isnt as common? No clue

but that only junior mint

Yeah, I guess I don't get it like Snyper said. I mean, even if the stock clear isn't the best in the world, I highly doubt that if you take care of the game that it will ever show signs of wear. Brand new metal comes unpolished? I am trying to think of why someone would want to immediately send a brand new collectible to a restorer, but I don't think I could ever be convinced that it is feasible. Just my opinion though, whatever floats your boat or finds your lost remote.

I don't see how the feel could be that different if you compare apples to apples. A brand new factory clear and a home shot auto clear are going to feel pretty similar. Of course if you are comparing a freshly cleared and shopped playfield to one that has 10,000 plays on it then of course it's going to feel different.

Which one? Philadelphia, Denver, or Sacramento?

Try apples to oranges. Most pinball machines did not come from the factory with automotive type clearcoat.

You would see a MAJOR difference if they were side by side and you played each a few times. Speed, trajectory, bounce, air balls, even something like titling is dramatically different based on what surface you are playing.

Mint = ?

That's if you consider pins as collectible in the first place... some are, but most aren't, and if it is NIB there's no way to tell if it will be collectible in the future.

Here's an example of HEP's work on a NIB game, while you may not send your NIB game to get the high end treatment, you'll probably appreciate the end result: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hep-avengers-le

Regarding mint and NIB. A lot can happen in transit, so they cannot be equated.

Regarding HEP and NIB. There is a such thing as "better than factory."

In who's eyes? Yours? Please define "better". What makes them better in your view? How can someone's preference be better than another person's preference?

Mint condition is not flawed like out of the box.

That is not to be confused with new out of box, but slightly scraped taking it out of the box.

If I had a 60 year old comic book presented to me, without cover spine creases, cover chipping, writing, etc... and without yellowed pages I'd call it near mint.

Anyone who sells me a game, 10, 20, 30+ year old pinball I hold them to the same standard. Don't BS me and don't use a potentially inaccurate term "mint" to your advantage.

See what I posted before you for an example.

Is that a game hep did for himself? That's fine. But I'm not gonna send a nib game right to a restorer. IM just not that anal I guess. Plus. You never know when you're gonna have the next BBB so I just think it's not that smart. But I do appreciate people doing what they gotta do to get the game of their dreams I guess.

I think this is just a "to each their own situation".

I guess I am at the other end of the spectrum trying to figure how a guy can sell a game and say that it works 'cause the lights turn on.

Usually "better than factory" refers to old stuff fixed up beyond what the manufacturer would do. Better fit and finish and higher quality parts. More time and effort than what achieved through the mass production process. New things can be "better than factory", but the higher the quality from factory the harder it is to achieve.

I could buy a nice antique table and replace the top with a beautiful and expensive piece of mahogany. Some people will absolutely love it. The furniture collectors will say you f-d that table up.