(Topic ID: 112929)

Let's figure out the minimum parts to build a whitewood

By Aurich

9 years ago


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    #5 9 years ago

    I've looked into this. really depends on how you go about it (investment in equipment). Just the playfield alone (cnc'd routed, ink, inserts, clear) you're talking minimum $500 (CPR is probably not far off). Add a pair of flipper mechs ($90), flipper bats, a few posts, and a basic way to drive it (no code, just flipping) which means hitting it with 48v for 1/2 a second then switching to 12v for holding.

    If you ignore the finished playfield portion (just picking up a reasonable sheet of 1/2" baltic birch), I bet you can make a starting whitewood for prototyping for around $160.. but keep in mind that's no shooter, no ball trough. That's placing a ball, playing, and then manually putting the ball back into play.

    #118 9 years ago
    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    I met Brendan Bailey at Expo 2013 and was impressed by his virtual pinball table junkyard Cats and set out to build a cad model of it, possibly pursuing making it a physical reality one day

    I think junkyard cats would actually sell. It's so close to what could have been a late 80's williams that I think a lot of fans of system 11 would plop down money to buy that.

    #123 9 years ago
    Quoted from 3rdaxis:

    Have a nice collection of .obj pieces. not sure if they will convert over..

    You might be able to export .obj over to IGES, then import IGES but it would probably be a dumb solid. Also how precise to scale are your models? Most cad software is 3 decimals, most 3d animation software I've seen doesn't really have a scale other than units.

    #195 9 years ago
    Quoted from lachied:

    Attached a reasonably recent version of whitewood, and what it looks like in 3D (above and below).

    that's an insanely busy playfield

    #214 9 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    the tractor beam event. Concept is that there is a rectangular window on the playfield going vertically from the center drain to the front of spaceball one.

    Under the window, the princess's mercedes is sucked toward spaceball one, and if you successfully complete the mode, the toy flips over to the winnebago side and flies away.

    I think you're going about that wrong. I don't think you want to use a leadscrew at all (and I'm not sure how you intend to flip it?) I've got ways to do what you want to do, but it has to be reliable (and not get tangled after many tries), and not get messed up during transport.

    #239 9 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    digital tools help us fail faster, and thus learn quicker.

    Sometimes the fastest way is paper (if you can draw, which I can). I can sketch something much quicker than I can model it to see if something is feasible, but CAD doesn't lie. Once you start modeling and assembling, you find out if it's possible to create (no undercuts) and assemble. It's one thing having parts together as a snapshot, it's another moving those objects together. Unlike earlier versions of Pro-engineer, Solidworks has had the ability to assemble with hinges for a long time which makes it more realistically assembled (not necessarily rigid).

    #253 9 years ago
    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    Having spent years using ProE and switching to SolidWorks about 6 years ago, I would never go back to ProE. It was a good tool to teach and learn with because it was very strict on 'how' one should model, but it was a bear to use quickly and efficiently. Assuming you model and draw in an 'appropriate' way, SW blows ProE out of the water imo, but it does allow for sloppy modelling practices where ProE would have smashed you in the face with errors immediately.

    I think 2008 was the year that many companies switched over (including the place I used to work at) because solidworks was finally more affordable than renewing the pro/e license, and you got more features. It just sucked that they switched on us while we were in the middle of a huge project with an aggressive schedule (with no training to ease us in other than a book). I don't miss those days of pro/e complaining when a reference got lost (especially high in the feature tree). Solidworks will tell you there's a problem, but will render what it can and let you resume assembling. Pro/e will stop you in your tracks and force you to fix the issue.

    #272 9 years ago
    Quoted from desertT1:

    When one has a model of a wire ramp, then what? Do you find a place that can curve the metal and hope they can weld them together as well?

    Ben heck used brass rods, bent them into shape (they're soft) and soldered them together. It holds up plenty well for a prototype
    http://www.benheck.com/americas-most-haunted-making-of/

    #287 9 years ago
    Quoted from mg81:

    The removal of a shooter lane opens up a lot of room on the playfield without needing to use a wide body

    I've tried to argue this (I thought the same thing), but really as long as the shooter lane ends where the orbit shot starts, you're not really losing real estate (you can only make a shot so far over).

    #295 9 years ago
    Quoted from swinks:

    here is a possible solution for the shooter lane, simply route out a pocket out of the playfield and install a 3D printed shooter lane insert

    that's not a half bad idea (also makes it replaceable when it wears), but it still requires you to route out a pocket in your design to a specific depth with a router. If you make it the same thickness as the playfield, it would only require you to handcut a pocket (could just use a jigsaw). When I made my whitewood, the one thing I cringed at was making that shooter lane. I basically started with a light plunge (using a ruler to guide me), and ran my line.. Plunged a little more, ran the same path stopping short, little more plunge.. until I had my shape fairly close. Then came back with sandpaper to smooth out the jagged steps.

    #414 9 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    I figured laser was was the way to go, but I guess cutting metal is tricky, and so probably cheaper and easier to have it cut on a water jet. Not something I've done in years though, I don't have a good hookup anymore.

    Laser can be cheaper for onesy-twoseys. Waterjet is usually a minimal setup charge of $50 (but can be faster and more cost effective in quantities). However, waterjet fillets on corners are based on thickness of material and nozzle size, so if you need sharp corners this isn't going to work unless you create reliefs (a hole at the corner). Another solution is Wire EDM, but it can be really slow.

    #430 9 years ago
    Quoted from BloodyCactus:

    Lowes happily sold me a 1/2 x 24 x 48 flat birch plywood for 16$ (just had to go through the stack and find a flat one)...

    perfect size for either a standard or widebody (except a sega widebody which is 25" wide).

    you can get 1/2 x 2 x 4 pine but that looked too soft and fuzzy.

    I paid $40 to have a piece of 1/2" x 2' x 4' baltic birch shipped from a guy in St louis, and it was JUST ok quality (but had dents and was pretty soft). Then I picked up the same size wood from lowes for $12 because I needed a 2nd playfield, and it was nice and straight, hard, and 9-ply layered. Home depot has a lot of crap warped wood, lowes tends to keep theirs flat on a shelf. If I was to redo my playfield, I'd just go to my local lowes, seriously.

    #466 9 years ago
    Quoted from swinks:

    my stumbling block is programming and when you read that you need to load all these various components to be able to programme it scared me away. Not sure if FAST Pinball's will approach it differently but it would be cool if one of the product developers could have a product that could be wired in and when it came to programming just one simple programme was loaded on your computer that came with a basic library of code built in. As for the programming it would then be cool if a basic programme was supplied with a bunch of features that you can then just assign your solenoids, switches and globes to predetermined numbers (in the code). Then the basics already be installed and activated so it knows how to do a ball search, flippers, pops and slings all up and running as well as lights 1-40 say etc. So then the programming then really starts at the rules of your theme as the basics are already supplied and pre-installed

    I'm a guinea pig for a guy that's spinning his own boards, that have PWM solenoid drivers pre-programmed for flippers (48v initial hit, then 12v hold). From I've talked with him it sounds like it will be a lot of cut-n-paste basic programming for scoring (with a framework template to display scoring on an LCD). I'm on the verge of getting my flippers wired up to start flipping on my whitewood. He has a blog if you want to read his progres:
    http://openpinballproject.wordpress.com

    #495 9 years ago
    Quoted from shimoda:

    Just another reason I'm jealous of the guys with 3D printers.

    3d printers aren't without issues. Our professional Stratasys at work has issues about once a month now (usually clogged nozzles, broken material, or the platform needing shimming). Of course it's also 8 years old and just became obsolete (no more service support) so we'll be buying a new version this year. Thankfully the hobby market has pushed prices down while innovating (reducing failed parts, making printing more reliable). Even professional printers are following the same path. Our old printer cost $150k 8 years ago, the new one is $120k, has a better LCD interface, is faster and more reliable (and warns you when service parts are likely to go bad like nozzles and belts).

    With that said, if you really want to get into 3d printing, shapeways isn't a terrible way to go if you're patient, or if you want to save money and deal local, there's a couple websites that can hook you up with local hobby printers:

    https://www.3dhubs.com/
    http://www.makexyz.com

    #497 9 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    I don't recommend makexyz.com

    I tried to use them the other day. Had a price quoted, they took my order, yay? 48 hours later I get an email that no one wanted to print my order, and they wouldn't take my money after all.

    Welp.

    That's 2 days of wasted time. Never going to try and use them again.

    I'm sure it varies by area, I'm actually surprised you didn't get better response in the california area with all the maker sheds out there. I got some parts made from a local guy, had really great communication throughout.

    #509 9 years ago
    Quoted from BloodyCactus:

    wondering how the shooter lane insert will play with the stern auto ball launcher arm

    Shouldn't matter, autolaunch is nothing more than a solenoid with a rubber tip. A manual shooter rod should mount at the same height.

    #525 9 years ago
    Quoted from desertT1:

    I'd love a shirt

    I second that

    Quoted from jwilson:

    only restriction is that you must create an account to edit information and upload files

    Thanks for making it a wiki, it'll get populated much faster that way. Haven't gotten my confirmation email yet to make edits.

    #529 9 years ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    Hmm, when did you sign up? I was having an issue with email which I've since fixed.

    At lunchtime. Still didn't get an email, but I have access to make edits now.

    #537 9 years ago

    I filled in a few areas with general info (because so many sections are blank). Also added a ton of custom pins:
    http://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php/Custom_Games

    #547 9 years ago
    Quoted from LapsedGamer:

    do these star posts typically use a nut under the playfield or are they just held into the wood by syncing a screw?

    Posts can be held in by either a screw, or a post screw which can be self tapping:
    http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=2078

    or machine threaded (which needs a T-nut under the playfield).
    http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=2077
    http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=231

    I prefer T-nuts because the self-tapping ones can become loose, which makes for removing plastics a pain. Not to say T-nuts can't strip underneath, but not if you don't over torque the screw.

    #562 9 years ago

    One thing that's not on the wiki (and I wonder if it's appropriate, or could be kept updated) is a vendor list seeing how surely not everyone can fabricate everything themselves (or want to). Things like:
    CNC'd playfield with printing - SPookY pinball, or xtremepinball.com
    wireform ramps - http://www.rollingballsculpture.com
    Toppers and plastics (shapes only) - http://www.laseriffic.com
    Off the shelf vendors (pinball life, marco, bay area, mad amusements, etc)

    #564 9 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    But who's got the hookup for good water jet cutting for steel? Did you know No Trash Cougar has a prototype fabrication business he's building and is a 3D printing whiz?

    Had no idea NTC had 3d printing capabilities. I've gotten quotes from multiple vendors in chicago, nobody has been able to beat the prices from chicago waterjet. There's also the option of wire-edm.

    #570 9 years ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    I'll add it to the main page.

    Awesome.. already in there adding to the list you started. For those adding, it's probably a good idea to try to keep things in alphabetical order.

    Also I find it interesting how much it's erroring out, because so many people are adding to the list at the same time and it's getting confused

    #574 9 years ago
    Quoted from desertT1:

    If I wanted to get a table to this level, what level of 'thinking' components to i need? Do I even need anything that thinks, or do I just need 100v/50v for the flippers and other coild?

    Quoted from BloodyCactus:

    PWM the flipper with a single high voltage (50v etc) but that requires CPU control.

    System I'm using (still in development by someone else) is taking 48V, PWM'ing to 12V after half a second:

    What's nice about CPU control, it's can be adjusted after the fact. Also by simplying it and pulling transistors to ground, it eliminates wiring. This is my playfield completely wired for 6 solenoids (lighting will add some wires), but you can see how clean it can be (using cable tie mounts really helps with wire management)
    playfield.JPGplayfield.JPG

    This is the board closeup that drives it all. There's another board for doing advanced stuff like delayed timing, but this board is programmed to just fire things and makes getting a whitewood layout really easy and quick.
    solenoid_board.JPGsolenoid_board.JPG

    Quoted from BloodyCactus:

    For a power supply, grab something like a Meanwell (very good brand, well respected) SE-600-48 or NES-350-48.
    amazon.com link »

    I was fortunate enough to find almost the exact same power supply off ebay for $25 (you'd be surprised what you can find there), some guy was selling a brand new wrapped one he was going to use for some servos.
    ebay.com link: 48v DC Power Supply PSU 7 3A 350W Stepper Servo

    #580 9 years ago

    Reminder to everyone contributing to pinballmakers.com (and I didn't realize this until someone edited one my entries), please upload any images you plan on using:
    http://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php/Special:Upload

    Then after it's uploaded, copy the link of that image.
    If you hyperlink to another site, not only are you costing them bandwidth, but if they opt to delete that file, it's gone forever.

    #615 9 years ago

    I tried opening the DWG file for the playfield layout both in draftsight and edrawing viewer, and it errors out. I went ahead and traced a space shuttle playfield and uploaded a DWG file.

    #621 9 years ago

    One issue I see, as far as playfields go, is choosing parts.

    * Flippers - doesn't matter, bushing size and position are common
    * sling mechs -hole patterns are common no matter what you use (but will likely be Stern slings)
    * pop bumpers - Hole size common

    However...
    * trough - Only one I see off the shelf that's available is Stern, which is not the same cutout as a williams
    * inline guides - Only one off the shelf available is modern Williams, which I believe is the same as Sega/Data East? I believe early solid state is different

    Ideally (going to try to work on this) is to get a generic playfield that works with common off-the-shelf parts. I wonder if it makes more sense to trace a Stern pinball playfield?

    #629 9 years ago
    Quoted from swinks:

    does anyone want a slingshot template ?

    I just uploaded a Williams and a Stern playfield, which includes the holes for the slings.
    http://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php/Files_Section#CAD_Drawings

    #637 9 years ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    Yeah, it's a huge pain in the ass. I've already mass-deleted over 300

    Crap, is there any way of making it harder to sign up for an account? I'm assuming these are spammers looking to use a wiki to turn it into a link farm? Under recent changes today, it's nothing but new accounts.

    #639 9 years ago
    Quoted from s1500:

    I would say shut off new account creation altogether, and make him/her send an email with a specific subject line

    Or maybe a question about pinball gets PM'd to your pinside account. Surely if you're a pinball builder, you're a pinside member.

    #660 9 years ago
    Quoted from Freeplay40:

    seems he is making a variety of inserts

    This is the company in chicago that still makes most of the original inserts:
    http://www.foremostplastic.com/Page9.html

    #669 9 years ago
    Quoted from LapsedGamer:

    Do rollover switches have some kind of grommet in the playfield to keep the switch centered/stabilized ?

    No, it's just a gap around it (tends to stay centered). Slots are typically only 3/16" wide.

    #670 9 years ago

    I uploaded pdf's of the Stern and williams playfields (C-size) so you don't even need CAD, you can upload it to any local printer and get a 1 scale printout to attach to plywood for all the reference cuts.

    1 week later
    #674 9 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    I've been doodling on a blank playfield template, man, it's intimidating starting with nothing

    I think it's really hard to figure anything out on paper without any way of testing it. I modeled everything I wanted in solidworks, and realizing it's really only conceptual reference because many things will need adjusting when you start realizing how physics and limitations of flipper power start impacting your design. Still fun to doodle to conceptualize new ideas.

    #686 9 years ago

    Yea, like a ramp that goes nowhere .. Perhaps they could have waited another week before showing something
    aliens_pinball.jpgaliens_pinball.jpg

    #689 9 years ago
    Quoted from s1500:

    It's better than showing nothing, especially in 2015

    true.. I suppose people did pre-order this title. Better to keep customers somewhat updated unlike some companies. Of course isn't this title scheduled to ship in April or some unrealistic date like that? Hats off to heighway if they can really pull off all these titles in the same year, I do like their designs and swappable playfields.

    #694 9 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Raise your hand if you can shoot a video right now of a half finished flipping whitewood!

    Would you consider mine half finished? I have better than a ramp to nowhere, I have no ramp
    http://www.homebrewpinball.blogspot.com/2015/02/3rd-flipper-hooked-up.html

    Quoted from desertT1:

    Those outholes look to be in high traffic areas, are there any modern measures to reduce wear and tear to those areas?

    Perhaps Heighway is going to come up with their own version of a cliffy protection, wood is only strong on the edges

    #706 9 years ago
    Quoted from ecurtz:

    Getting ready to send a router template out to Ponoko to be laser cut

    Couple things:
    1. I uploaded that stern file. I traced it off of an AC/DC image but it's not exact (probably good enough for prototyping). I did do one side and mirror it so at least it's symmetrical
    2. What do you mean by template? Are you getting a piece of metal cut and then cutting the wood yourself? Why not just have a company CNC the plywood itself? Also keep in mind if you're gonna route it yourself, you have to modify it to allow for half of the bit size (IE if you use a 1/4" bit, you have to offset all the lines in by 1/8)

    #711 9 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    you might see if Joe from Laseriffic can do it for you

    I don't think his laser cutter would cut through metal, much less a piece that big

    Quoted from ecurtz:

    it's less than $35

    Wow that's surprisingly cheap. My local waterjet guy would probably charge at least double that.

    #715 9 years ago

    If anyone is looking to start a project, there's a gottlieb trough for pretty cheap on ebay right now:
    ebay.com link: Gottlieb Pinball Ball Return Kicker Assembly

    Granted this only supports a single ball, it's not the worst thing to keeping it simple to start out.

    #720 9 years ago
    Quoted from LapsedGamer:

    I was looking at buying some flipper assemblies from pinball life

    http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=172

    I was curious if anyone knew if these assemblies and coils from this era used 50 Volts or what? Do both the inner and outer coil use 50 volts for the dual wound? If there a way to tell from the coil number alone?

    I'm using the same assembly. Yes, these are 50 volt, especially that date range. There are 3 lugs because there are actually 2 windings. One side is 50 volt, one side is 12volt hold which is actuated by that EOS switch. I'm actually not even using the 12volt side in mine, my system PWM's the 50v down to 12v after 1/2 a second of 50V to kick.

    Quoted from LapsedGamer:

    I'm trying to put together a coil driver circuit and hopefully not let any magic smoke out. Thanks for any info on this in advance.

    What type of circuit are you building? Are you building a playfield from scratch or trying to drive an existing playfield with new drivers?

    #722 9 years ago
    Quoted from LapsedGamer:

    anyone knew if these assemblies and coils from this era used 50 Volts or what?

    These two pages are pretty helpful when it comes to coils:
    http://www.pinballmedic.net/coil_chart.html

    http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/FL-11630

    1 week later
    #726 9 years ago
    Quoted from MarkInc:

    Making some progress on my playfield. About 60 inserts in place - cut by hand with router and forstner drill bit. Here's a pic of it with the blueprint overlayed

    that looks hella busy, but it doesn't look like you have any dead shots. I like that you overlayed major under playfield components on top, that helps to make sure you've left room for everything underneath.

    #734 9 years ago

    I'm working on a "Making your own plastics section" on pinballmakers.
    *EDIT* Moved and updated:
    http://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php/Construction#Plastics

    Whoever uploaded a ton of solidworks 2013 components.. THAT'S REEEALLL NICE!

    #739 9 years ago

    With all the failings of pinball startups lately, I wondered if it would be applicable to add some sort of "business plan" to this wiki? Even though it's geared towards helping out the hobbyist looking to make one-offs, I don't see boutiques going away anytime soon and it would be good both for the person thinking of starting a business, and for the investors to have a checklist to see how reputable that business is.

    I started a section in the files but haven't uploaded anything yet. I figure it's best to create this in excel files:
    http://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php/Files_Section#Business_Plan

    I don't pretend to know how a pinball company works, but maybe through open source eventually we'll get there?
    Here's my very rough notes:
    Specification sheet
    =====================

    standard/wide body
    general feature count (flippers, pop bumpers, multiball count, flashers, etc)
    cpu platform
    backglass + DMD/alphanumberic or LCD
    Number of playfield levels
    toys (and quantity)
    spring plunger or autoplunge
    LED or incadescent bulbs
    coin mechs?
    powder coat or stainless hardware
    License or unlicensed
    production quantity

    Supplier list
    =============
    off shelf component supplier(s) (flipper assemblies, slings, VUK's, etc)
    cnc playfield/art
    plastics
    inserts
    cabinet maker
    speaker system
    Production Manufacturer

    Timeline
    =============
    Rough estimate of milestones and time for each to estimate completion date

    Staff
    =============
    Designer
    Mechanical engineer
    Electrical engineer
    Sound Engineer
    Programmer
    Artist
    License Manager
    Accountant

    Cost
    =============
    Per pinball
    BOM part cost
    Shipping cost including packaging

    All the below ammortized over quantity of pins
    R&D (time x salary x employees)
    Mfg cost
    Employees cost
    --------------
    $ ____ Final pinball cost

    #744 9 years ago

    I saw that tweeted yesterday. Granted it's just flipping (no scores, no sounds, just solenoids firing), it's still impressive considering they had to identify every coil and switch, assign a value, and plop it into their standard framework. I would love to see how long it takes to go from flipping, to basic rules / sound events.

    4 weeks later
    #759 9 years ago
    Quoted from lachied:

    here is an update of my pinball software that I am working on. Obviously still in development but it'll be a client-server architecture. Machine can run standalone as a normal pinball machine with the server software but then for testing/designing purposes the client can connect from a different computer.

    Ooh nice. So is the WPF just the visual playfield layout portion, and you're using Caliburn.Micro and MassTransit just to tie together the .NET framework? It's like an open source version of jersey jack's system.

    1 week later
    #772 9 years ago
    Quoted from Linolium:

    I've thought about using the sega/stern sling mech for a while because of it's mounting simplicity. Mounting a B/W mech is a pain since it's 2 part

    I did the same with mine. DE/Sega stern is one piece with like 3 screws.
    http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=658

    I started with a 2 piece and it was nearly impossible to get it aligned correctly. Sega also has lots of VUK's up on marco.

    #783 8 years ago
    Quoted from LapsedGamer:

    Should I be using stranded or solid wire? Does it matter?

    When have you ever seen solid wire anywhere in a pinball machine? Solid wire is VERY stiff, it would be a nightmare to route any solid wire under a playfield. You would never be running that many amps to require solid wire

    #785 8 years ago
    Quoted from LapsedGamer:

    I don't own my own machine so I've never inspected the wiring

    Solid wire is usually used in homes because of the high amps (15-20), and because solid carries more amps in an equivalent diameter stranded. The most peak amps you'll see in a pinball is 4amps total, probably not much more than 1-2amps on any wire, which is why most wires are 18AWG.

    I would own / restore at least one pinball to get familiar with off the shelf parts before you tried designing your own. I tried that tactic and went down a really bad path quick.

    #790 8 years ago
    Quoted from ecurtz:

    Using a laser cut router template to cut a generic lower playfield. It's no substitue for a CNC machine, but works pretty well. If you want to try this spend the extra $10 or whatever and get the template in 1/4" MDF instead of 2.5mm acrylic!

    Nice, is that using a 1/4" bit? Can't wait to see it populated to see how things line up.

    #800 8 years ago
    Quoted from swinks:

    I am curious if this same approach could be done for possible playfield repairs but more curious for a one off designed playfield. This would be alot cheaper than trying to get a playfield screened and have not heard of anyone in Australia doing direct printing

    Most people do vinyl sticker overlays. Either you cut out the inserts and print an opaque label, or you print a clear label but paint the wood white (since most printers won't print white). It's done all of the time:
    http://pinballmagic.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=6&chapter=0

    #806 8 years ago
    Quoted from desertT1:

    Isn't this how Ben did the first AMH boards? I swear there is a video somewhere of him putting down the graphic

    It was for bill paxton

    #808 8 years ago

    It's my understanding AMH is direct printed, same as the woz cabinets Charlie worked on

    1 week later
    #831 8 years ago

    auto aligning router: genius. Curious what the price will be

    #844 8 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    I want the bottom part of a playfield CNC'd with all of the "standard" holes, including lane inserts, between the flipper insert, etc....

    But I only want the wood to be long enough to get right past the entrances to the lanes. I'm going to build a side rail system on my playfield rotisserie that basically has the playfield in multiple pieces. That way I can keep messing with the upper part of the playfield without having to have a new lower piece.

    that's not a bad idea actually, at least for a whitewood. once you get the lower half done, you worry about making mistakes because you're invested. About the only fix if you mess something up is to re-fill it with a matching piece of wood and level it. Hinges would only make minimal gaps (say 1/16"), and the gaps could be filled with a strip of rubber, or just use masking tape.

    #847 8 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    I don't even know that there would be a gap, I can easily model and 3D print some type of bracket/latch that keeps the center of the two pieces aligned vertically. The rails would clamp down on the sides keeping them aligned.

    Only way to make the gaps disappear would be to recess the hinges (cutouts on the sides). As far as alignment vertically, you could glue hinges temporary in place (let them rest on the surface), and let the pieces lie flat, then go back and add screws for strength.

    Again, I don't think you'd ever want to build a final game this way, it would only be for layout purposes. Once your shots look good, scan the holes, make a DXF, send it out to a CNC router.

    #862 8 years ago
    Quoted from s1500:

    Are there established known measurements for things like the clearances for the inlane & outlane and such? I'm sure over the decades & companies there's variances...

    Not exactly, but you typically want at bare minimum at least 1/16" clearance on each side of the ball (which means 1-3/8" total space).

    For ramps, you typically want 1.5"-2.5" for the entrance to any ramp (so your shots aren't super hard to aim for), and then they can channel back down to 1-3/8" because a ball will find it's way.

    #872 8 years ago

    MDF is horrible material. It's heavy, and it's terrible at holding anything as far as screws (and yes, it's very toxic to cut). People use it for one reason, it has a smooth surface that typically doesn't need sanding. It's just as expensive as plywood.

    2 weeks later
    #886 8 years ago

    I'm wrapping up my wooden rotisserie (I never liked the common plumbing pipe/angle bracket/clamp version).
    I plan to write up some plans and post soon.

    1 week later
    #891 8 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    The section about plywood is incorrect:

    agreed, I didn't create that section but I'll update it. Thanks Vid!

    #893 8 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    4x8' sheet is about $70, so it's not cheap.

    Only need 2x4 for a playfield:
    http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/131171/Phenolic-Faced-Plywood-12mm-12-x-24-x-48.aspx

    I'd expect to pay about $50 for a good piece of wood. I might have to look into that stuff.

    #913 8 years ago
    Quoted from swinks:

    I had this thought a few years ago but then thought about some of the mechs and their placement in reference to the playfield surface so either thinner playfield or extra routing or new designed parts for like flipper, sling shot pop bumper mechs.

    I had considered this, but yea there can be some complicated hole cuts that you'd have to route twice (inserts wouldn't get cut on this layer). You'd still have the issue of the plastic getting cloudy over time (clear is harder and more apt to stay clear). IF you were interested in this, I would do it out of a thin layer of PETG since it's the best of both worlds (flame polishable like acrylic, nearly as impact resistant as polycarbonate).

    #921 8 years ago

    Ben did it right when he built his 1/2 scale pinball (he's now done 3 pinball projects, and his background is art and doing game mods with realistic looking backdated bezels). He started with a routed playfield, stuck in inserts, then put on a layer of clear (mostly to hold the inserts, but also do give a clean smooth surface), then a layer of white (with inserts trimmed away with a cutter printer), then a layer of CMYK artwork printing on clear (the white layer backs up the areas that need backing)

    #924 8 years ago
    Quoted from DDDwingmaster:

    When cutting holes in the white layer for the inserts, then you get an uneven surface because these holes will be lower as the rest of the playfield. I don't think he did put lots of sanded clearcoat layers on top of it to smooth it out. How did he get an smooth surface this way?

    The layers of vinyl are pretty thin (less than .012"), and there's still a layer on top (color layer). Pretty sure it all evens out, but if you REALLY wanted to make sure I suppose you could put a couple layers of clearcoat on top of the white layer, sand it smooth, THEN put the top color layer on, and then clearcoat over that.

    #937 8 years ago

    I've got a pair of SEGA VUK's. Looking to get $35 each shipped in USA (international extra). They've been cleaned and tested. These can shoot a ball up a tube a good 6-8 inches. I'm using the same one on my project:
    http://homebrewpinball.blogspot.com/2015/04/layout-video.html

    Here's pics:
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dm3tumoxk2rulhc/AAB6IdwHbEnH2wXweeecHyiza?dl=0

    #938 8 years ago

    Also have a SEGA ball trough, also cleaned and tested, can handle up to 6 balls. Looking to get $65 shipped in USA (international extra). Pics here:
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/upair8ov3shjjcm/AABapBW1CWJCA0-uvUqxqtHra?dl=0

    #953 8 years ago
    Quoted from VacFink:

    The worry here is so much is out of stock and game specific. If I'm going to pirate parts used is cheaper, maybe

    I've already been down this road. I started with a gutted Stern Memory Lane. Only parts I really ended up using off of it was the ball trough / apron. The flippers were weak, and the sling mechs were a pain to get lined up (because it's multiple pieces) and turned my playfield into swiss cheese. I ended up just buying modern sling and flipper assemblies from pinball life for $40 each. The one VUK I have is a used SEGA (since nobody really makes them). If you intend to do multiball, you pretty much have to buy the $129 Stern trough (supposedly PBL is working on an aftermarket of their own). I'm really surprised Stern hasn't redesigned the trough as a single injection molded piece (glass filled nylon is as tough or tougher than aluminum). I could see building a trough for less than $30 in parts with less labor if someone were willing to invest in a mold.

    #959 8 years ago
    Quoted from VacFink:

    Casting in fiber glass, injection molding, or vacuum forming?

    Vacuum forming "might" hold up so long as the balls don't drop in the trough, but the solenoid firing thousands of times might cause cracking because of the limited material choices. Injection molding would be the way to go, you could rib the hell out of it, and add all the switch mounts, holes, solenoid mount. A mold could pop out easily 100,000 parts (with some maintenance on the injection gate).

    I built a shield for 2 levels of a product for work, one is aluminum and one is glass filled. surprisingly, during life testing the aluminum one formed a crack and bent, the plastic one didn't even crack and actually broke a cinder block.

    #968 8 years ago
    Quoted from Cappi:

    Stern Star Trek memory drop target runs $182

    it's crazy what stuff sells for, that's what happens when stuff isn't regularly available. Heck, even a 5-bank from capcom is $150
    http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/A-00154

    #971 8 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    do you really need a coil for a drop target? If you wanted individually controllable drops what about using a servo? Too slow? Not strong enough?

    Servos have gotten much better since the 90's, and CHEAP. The servos that Chuck is using at spooky for the door is a hobbyking (famous remote control hobby website that imports parts from china), mostly known for the very powerful turnigy brushless motors. Servos last a long time because they're sealed, and they dont' get dirty like a coil can. Servos also run on much lower voltage (I believe 6v).

    Servos won't replace coils for flippers, slings, or a ball troughs because they don't have enough kick, but resetting targets should be fine (you're just moving it back up to the notch that the spring popped it out from)

    2 weeks later
    #996 8 years ago
    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    I intend to use heavy weight cardstock (ie - business card or stiffer) like a ramp flap... no clue on how that will turn out

    I've cut up manilla folders for my project (we bought like 200 from costco 10 years ago), the thickness works great. Keeping in mind if you move your ramp around a lot, even masking tape may tear the cardboard, but hey.. not hard to make (pair of scissors makes a new one in 5 seconds)

    1 week later
    #1014 8 years ago
    Quoted from Edenecho:

    Went and bought my first plywood for my custom pin today! Brought the measurements for Stern playfields and they sawed it to the right size. Was a special feeling going home holding my "own" playfield in its infant-stage

    It's a great feeling, and then it turns into "I fear making cuts because I don't want to screw up", and the deeper you get into the design, the less apt you are to make more cuts because if you screw up badly you'll either have to cover it up, or start over.
    http://homebrewpinball.blogspot.com/2014/06/and-so-it-begins.html

    If you need any help or tips, I'm sure everyone here working on something can chime in. If you need slings, VUK's, or a ball trough, I have spares for sale.

    #1016 8 years ago

    Print 1 at local print shop. Lay it down on plywood, tape in place, then start cutting.

    #1018 8 years ago
    Quoted from Edenecho:

    foamcore ball guide lanes, ramps, and so on... do you do all this with the paper blue print taped on?

    You can trace by pressing hard with a pencil.. though keep in mind even if you have a layout, physics work differently in the real world and you'll be making adjustments anyway. My suggestion is to put blue tape down, hot glue the ball guides, test your shots, then trace the position of them.

    #1057 8 years ago
    Quoted from fastpinball:

    Not every try is a raving success, though. The "carve and wax spray foam as a foam-core ramp alternative" has been stuck at this stage since the foam dried in 2013.

    I love seeing alternate ways to create things. The cardboard ramps seem to work pretty well so long as you reinforce them with cardboard gussets (see nightmare before christmas). That thing has very long curvy ramps, and I've yet to see the ball get stuck. It's going to play super fast once he moves over to plastic or steel.

    seriously though, don't assume things are going to work like you think they are, gravity might be consistent but shots are not. Once you create your first ramp from cardboard. You might (probably) will have to start over, and that's ok. You'll see what works and what doesn't, and you'll just get better and faster at building ramps. Before you know it, making small tweaks and rebuilding a ramp can be done in less than an hour and your layout will go much faster.

    #1068 8 years ago
    Quoted from fastpinball:

    Let's all have a little sharing session. It's would be good for the new designers to see how many times it takes to get some of this stuff right

    I tried to replicate the loop-da-loop ramp shot from gottlieb gold wings. As of this morning I'm on like my 7th try (cardboard and steel hot glued together). Needless to say, I'm giving up on it. Even if I could get it to work how I want it, it won't be reliable, and I can only imagine horrible ball hangs.

    #1070 8 years ago
    Quoted from fastpinball:

    This is the kind of challenge I love! I need to go look this up.

    recent posts show my frustration:
    http://homebrewpinball.blogspot.com

    #1078 8 years ago
    Quoted from VacFink:

    so instead of a complex and hard to build side wall, create the edge from folded up tabs. Basically cut tiny triangles pointy side toward the run of the ramp, out every 1/2 inch, I'd also maybe put a flexible thin sheet of styrene as a backer for the loop portion, that will firm up the shot and prevent wiggle

    Tried triangles, worked like crap (just bent over). I cut out open circles with a slit so it could flex as the wall turns. The walls aren't the issue, it's trying to aim sideways. for firmness, I built gussets out of thicker cardboard, I was trying to avoid having to do that everytime.

    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    Depending on size, I think that could be 3D printed in one piece on a one of the typical consumer grade printers (makerbot clone) with only a bit of cleanup required. It's definitely possible in multiple pieces and it should be plenty strong, especially if ABS was used

    I have a 3d model, I didn't want to waste material until I thought I had a viable design (also I only have a printer at work, and try to minimize G-jobs).

    Quoted from swinks:

    how about a loop da loop ramp with a see through thin polycarbonate roof panel for the ramp so the ball can never fly off the ramp

    A more enclosed section may help. I want more than a loop, I'm trying to make the ramp an (S) shape to spell something out (like guns n roses by data east did).

    #1080 8 years ago
    Quoted from swinks:

    not understanding you sorry

    sway.jpgsway.jpg

    Guns-N-Roses_0002_Upper-Playfield[1].jpgGuns-N-Roses_0002_Upper-Playfield[1].jpg

    #1081 8 years ago
    Quoted from swinks:

    another product which is cool to gain curved surfaces is flexible ply / wobble ply which is 3 - 6mm thick. It has 3-5 layers of ply all running in the same direction

    Looks like the living hinge stuff (when you laser cuts), except it does it without cuts

    #1089 8 years ago
    Quoted from DDDwingmaster:

    Has anyone tried to print parts in PC (polycarbonate)

    polycarbonate would be your best chance at getting something that would last. Might have to rib the heck out of the back of it to strengthen it.

    1 week later
    #1092 8 years ago
    Quoted from DDDwingmaster:

    Say, If I copy a whiteboard design from some existing pinball and would sell them, could there be any legal ramifications?

    I highly doubt it, but what are you inferring? Routing out, say a Stern Metallica playfield (minus inserts and art) and selling it?

    #1095 8 years ago
    Quoted from DDDwingmaster:

    I am currently working on a pinball that uses the layout of a firepower pinball. The graphics, sounds, hardware, software etc will be my own design

    I'm not a lawyer, but even if you could patent a layout, firepower is 35 years old. I don't know that it would fall under trademark either. Most of the things that planetary pinball defends it's IP over is art and sound, which fall under copywright which is life of author plus 70 years:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain

    #1097 8 years ago
    Quoted from lordloss:

    That won't stop rick from sending you an angry PM

    True.. Better add 2 extra posts, and don't mention firepower again.

    #1104 8 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    There were plenty of copied playfields/shots by other companies over the years (think Playboy=SexyGirl) and you did not see any lawsuits

    exactly.. plus with companies releasing 4-6 titles/year, imagine how expensive that would get patenting a layout everytime.

    1 week later
    #1116 8 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    Terry, please add pre-cut playfield templates, sized properly and with the "italian" bottom or whatever the hell it's called already cut on it.

    I'm seriously *this* close to ordering a CNC router to cut my own. I can't do it with my hands, it will look like dog shit.

    He should.. even though he doesn't own one, I know he does a lot of business with Charlie Emery. Second best option is to contact Ben Heck:
    http://www.benheck.com/services

    #1118 8 years ago
    Quoted from Edenecho:

    It struck me.. what is the difference between Shooter Lane Auto Kicker Assembly, and Sega/Stern Auto Plunger Arm Weld Assembly ?

    The Stern assembly looks like only the plate plus coil, there's no plunger, bell or spring. The williams assembly is complete and drops right in, just mount and hook up power.

    2 weeks later
    #1141 8 years ago

    So who here hates leaf switches and would like to see more cherry switches being used?

    #1143 8 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    I'm actually really curious to see how these hall effect switches Heighway is using work out

    I give them major props for going this route. No dust going through the playfield, no cutouts, nearly limitless switch cycles. I bought a couple on ebay, but they didn't come with very good instructions on how they function so I gave up for now.

    My current project I have brackets for mounting a cherry switch in the drain troft, the flipper buttons, and standup targets (slings are next). I much prefer the stiffness and that snap action of a cherry switch over leaf switches that always bend out of alignment, and are no longer necessary since high voltage is typically not going through them anymore on modern controllers.

    #1152 8 years ago
    Quoted from BloodyCactus:

    how close does the ball get before detection?

    4-29mm depending on which sensor you go with
    http://www.omega.com/pptst/iPROX.html

    #1154 8 years ago

    Added Williams and DE/SEGA/Stern inlanes. Unfortunately they are Solidworks 2014, I can't run 2013 since I upgraded to 64-bit windows.
    http://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php/Files_Section#3D_Templates

    3 weeks later
    #1158 8 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    I'm doing my homework now, but I've never paid more than passing attention to the embedded space. The easy popular options are a Beagle Bone Black, or a Raspberry Pi 2, anyone have thoughts or experience on them, or other alternatives?

    IIRC the RP2 is around $35, and the BBB is more like $50.

    raspberry pi2 model A is only $20 and I believe the same processor as B (just less internal memory, only one usb port, and lack of wifi). Both will easily do HD 1080p video (1920 x 1080) and probably all the 3d you can throw at it (it'll run Quake 3 at 60fps):

    The fact that mission pinball supports linux is awesome, it keeps it cheap and low powered (raspberry pi 2 only consumes a max of 130mah at 5v).

    #1160 8 years ago
    Quoted from Captain_Kirk:

    Did we ever find out the minimum parts to build a whitewood?

    The answer is: 42, or 3 licks
    tootsie-pop-owl[1].jpgtootsie-pop-owl[1].jpg

    #1197 8 years ago

    Look at the new beaglebone beast that's coming soon ($200-$250):
    http://makezine.com/2015/10/14/beagleboard-officially-reveals-the-x15-and-its-a-beast/

    Dual-core Sitara AM5728 ARM Cortex A15 @ 1.5Ghz
    750-MHz C66x DSP for analytics
    Quad-core PRU for real-time control
    Dual-core Cortex-M4 for even more real-time control
    4GB eMMC
    157 general purpose input/output (GPIO)
    20-pin ARM JTAG
    eSATA
    HDMI
    2 1Gb ethernet ports
    2GB DDR3L
    µSD card slot
    Micro USB 2.0 slave
    3 ports on a USB3.0 host
    Audio in and out jacks

    #1214 8 years ago

    I was upset when I found out that 2 swords of fury's had to be sacrificed to make Buffy the vampire slayer. Now that I played the latest polished version I don't mind so much. Not a fan of the show, but the layout is just great no matter what you retheme it as.

    1 week later
    #1241 8 years ago
    Quoted from JoelOmatik:

    Would a template guide attach to it? I know it's HF brand, but does it stand up well to repeated routing?

    doubtful, a real router has a big metal plate on the bottom, not plastic. I'm not against HF tools, but sometimes they aren't quite the same.

    Quoted from JoelOmatik:

    If not this, what are other alternatives that don't cost as much as regular routers?

    Don't buy new. You can pickup used routers off ebay or craigslist for between $30-$80.. Look for brands like Skil, craftsman, makita.

    I've also wondered if you could get by with a dremel and a router attachment. Wouldn't be as powerful as a router, but if you went slow it might work. I find full sized routers to be overly powerful (My Skil doesn't ramp up, it's full on or nothing), and that torque makes it jerk.
    dremel_router.jpgdremel_router.jpg

    #1275 8 years ago

    3d printing a ball trough for multiple games doesn't make much sense (if you owned a 3d printer and don't mind the wear, maybe). I think the happy medium between 3d printing one-offs and production tooling (or even prototype aluminum tooling) would be RTV molds, which can produce about 20-30 parts out of urethane before the mold starts to wear. I only say this because even the toughest 3d printed material (polycarbonate) can break unless you REALLY beef up the walls, which would mean a much bigger slot in the playfield. urethane isn't ideal material, but I'd say it's probably 1/3 to 1/2 the strength of say a polypropylene. This could also prove out how well a plastic trough would hold up over time, how it would wear. If you were to REALLY seriously tool up a production mold, and you made it out of 15-30% glass filled nylon, and you did FEA in solidworks to estimate material yield with a few factors of safety, I guarantee you could easily get years and years of use out of it before it came close to breaking or wearing through. I bet you could easily shave off a pound or two making it from plastic vs steel too. I know that doesn't sound like much, but every pound counts when you're shipping overseas.

    #1277 8 years ago
    Quoted from ecurtz:

    If you used a couple steel rod inserts like Kerry's improved Williams trough the balls would barely touch the plastic anyway.

    true, but you have to think more than just weight, you have to also think assembly.. Unless you made them easily installed (slid in from the side). A plastic trough could be designed where it's all one piece.. just mount the switches to brackets with holes molded in. If Stern tooled it in China (1/4 the price of US tooling), and then had the parts sent to a shop that does assembly, they could come in with switches premounted, pre-wired to a connectorized harness, and drop it right in.

    #1311 8 years ago

    You know, I've been thinking about this whole "get rid of the shooter lane" for a few years. Most people I talk to shoot it down, stating "Oh, the shooter lane isn't taking up space, if you drop the ball before the line of sight of the left flipper past the sling, you don't gain anything". Not only is this not true (you can gain an extra inlane), but the entire concept of a "shooter lane" is wasteful. Think about what happens after you drain a ball. It rolls down a trough, then a solenoid kicks it up, then an autoplunger (another solenoid) kicks it up the playfield. You're using twice the channels and twice the coils when if designed right you could get by with one. I say autoplunger because while there are still manual plungers even on modern sterns, all sterns (and even spooky) also have an autoplunge. This is absolutely necessary for modern multiball control (and forces ball saves to not allow you to soft plunge to gain points unless you're quicker than the auto plunge).

    I'm starting to wonder if you could get creative and have the trough dump the ball back onto the playfield somewhere. My ideas:
    1. Get rid of the right sling, replace it with a VUK scoop
    2. Have 2 lanes in the apron. One to drain, one to shoot it back on the playfield. Could be between flippers, maybe it's shooting it through one-way gates of the inlane?
    3. If you have a shallow apron, you could have a VUK sticking up through it (see minions pinball) that fires the ball into the middle of the playfield
    4. Have a flap that allows the ball to travel over it, but still allow a ball to pop up from under the playfield (think pitch and bat game)

    #1348 8 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    for drop targets for instance I do wonder if there isn't something smarter and more elegant than the current system of springs and coils. Computer controlled drops that can go up and down at will especially, seems ridiculous to need two coils for that

    What is jersey jack doing to individually control the targets on Hobbit? Are they still using coils?

    If you want to get away from coils, but still want the speed without dropping $20 on each high speed servo, look for door actuators for cars. They run on 12V, and they're very fast. They don't quite have the torque for flippers (as I found out), but targets would be a great application. They can be had for less than $5 each:

    #1352 8 years ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    Some TH drop target CAD drawings here:

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jersey-jack-pinball-gameroom-show-82915/page/4#post-2713374

    [edit]: Here are the full resolution images--I reduced the one in that thread by 75%, so not all the text was quite readable.

    Still using coils, albiet smaller coils since it only needs to move a single target (not reset a bank of targets against a spring), but still pricey (and noisy).

    Ok, so what is P3 using for it's walls that split up the upper and lower playfield?

    #1355 8 years ago
    Quoted from Zitt:

    Only people under NDA have seen under the upper PF AFAIK.

    coils:
    27x[1].jpg27x[1].jpg

    http://www.pinballnews.com/games/p3/index5.html

    #1357 8 years ago
    Quoted from Zitt:

    Dude; that's picture is from like early development. It's the wood grained cabinet from like 3 years ago.... probably at TPF'2013 or something.

    true

    Quoted from Zitt:

    I wouldn't assume the MFG protos are using coils based upon that picture

    You can see the 3 pole lugs sticking up
    coils.pngcoils.png

    1 month later
    #1365 8 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    BREAKING NEWS: Scott Danesi is a bad ass.

    He's also lionman

    #1369 8 years ago
    Quoted from DDDwingmaster:

    It is interesting to see that Scott manages to route the playfield on a CNC machine that much shorter as the actual playfield. Must be tricky to align the second route precise enough with the first route, so that the playfield print will match all the holes.

    Or... perhaps there's another way that entails modifying it.

    #1374 8 years ago
    Quoted from Edenecho:

    Glue the paper to plywood, or just fasten it in the corners with thumbtacks and after drilling the necessary holes etc, then maybe remove the paper and start working with the foamcore and guides? or just glue stuff onto the paper and test with the paper on?

    Depends on how complicated it is.. though I would use an adhesive and simply sand when I'm done. You could also use a light coating of gel medium to transfer the outline directly onto the wood (and again, sand when you're done).

    Btw, the widths of the entrance ramps look very narrow. Keep in mind that's ok if the ball fits, but it will be really tough to make the shots. Might want to consider making the entrances wider and then narrow them down.

    #1376 8 years ago
    Quoted from Edenecho:

    Gel medium, havent heard of that before, care to elaorate? The best thing would be to get the print directly on the plywood somehow

    http://www.walmart.com/ip/Liquitex-Gloss-Acrylic-Gel-Medium/24457519

    Skip the modge podge step (you don't need to seal it, they are only reference lines). Also make sure you print a mirrored copy since it will mirror when you transfer.

    #1382 8 years ago

    Scott explains how he cuts a full playfield in 2 steps:
    http://www.scottdanesi.com/?p=627

    1 month later
    2 weeks later
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    #1475 8 years ago

    So I've had this idea for a while, I've been motivated to try out a proof of concept now that I can easily 3d print objects. The idea of forming my own wireform ramps seems very challenging. The only other option is making cardboard ramps, or eventually vacuum forming plastic ramps after you've proven out the geometry. Plastic ramps aren't necessarily applicable in every ramp design, so how do you prototype wireform ramps? Well after seeing Stern's wrestlemania, I realize that having just 2 wires is sufficient for ball travel so long as you support them well. Well rather than having to try to use brass rods and a blowtorch, I've come up with this concept that I believe will work. Basically it replaces that half circle piece you would normally permanently attach to the wireforms where you can just snap them into place, and put as many of these supports as you need. It also articulates on a ball joint/clamp so if you have tight turns it can be turned and twisted in any position you need. I'm probably going to add a boss so this could get attached to various heighted threaded hex spacers. If you don't want to secure it to a hex or the playfield, You can modify the top piece 3d model by removing the ball and it can simply be used to keep the spacing between wires at the right distance.

    This works good for prototyping, but could potentially be a permanent solution for a hobby built table:

    wireform_ramp_support1_(resized).JPGwireform_ramp_support1_(resized).JPG
    wireform_ramp_support2_(resized).JPGwireform_ramp_support2_(resized).JPG

    If there's interest, I can drop the solidworks files up to pinballmakers.com

    #1477 8 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Where I think it's problematic is for turns, where the centrifugal force might knock it off as it corners. I wonder if you could fix that with banking ..

    that's exactly my intention.. this allows for banking, very similar to a roller coaster design.

    #1484 8 years ago
    Quoted from MarkInc:

    can you grow another arm?

    Yes, I will create (bank) versions, and clamps without the ball joint on them. Will upload everything to pinballmakers soon

    Quoted from mjenison:

    do you think plastic rods instead of metal wireforms could be an option? Get some fairly study plastic rod and just use a heat gun to help form it to the guides

    That's an interesting idea. There are lots of choices in 1/8" stock, including polycarbonate and PETG that can be formed with a little heat:
    http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-plastic-rods/=11grota

    PET would be easier to form with a max temp of only 140F (could probably use a hairdryer in place of a heat gun), and should hold up fairly well. If this worked, in theory every ramp could potentially become a giant lightpipe . I've got some stainless on order from mcmaster, but I may buy some dowel rods from home depot on the way home just to see how well it snaps and keeps them at the right distance.

    Quoted from rosh:

    Sort of reminds me of this toy

    Exactly what I had in my mind when I came up with it, never could beg my parents to buy me one of those

    #1485 8 years ago

    So I got my 3/32 stainless wire. tweaked the snap fits, worked decently (but not as tight as I want). Did a test, seems like you can get by with 12" spacing before the ball starts to spread the wires apart
    wireform_3dprint_(resized).JPGwireform_3dprint_(resized).JPG

    I'm nixing the 3/32" OD and going to the standard 1/8 for better engagement. Found this video today of someone recreating those coaster toys (it's called spacewarp, or the name brand spacerail)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacewarp_%28toy%29

    He's using polyethylene tubing (same you find at home depot):

    Unfortunately home depot only goes down to 1/4" OD (little big), but you can buy 1/8" OD in 25 foot increments from mcmaster for only 5 cents/foot:
    http://www.mcmaster.com/mv1457470370/#catalog/5181K15

    I also opted to buy some ABS rods for straight sections (same OD):
    http://www.mcmaster.com/mv1457470370/#catalog/8587K35

    I would build a holder twice as wide to transition from tubing to solid rod. It has great tensile and impact properties, and if you chose to you "could" heat it and bend it

    #1487 8 years ago
    Quoted from lachied:

    Would ABS be strong enough to bend the wire? Did a quick sketch of a bending block (excuse the shoddy paint drawing). Maybe use a bunch of these while positioning the wire to get smooth bends, then switch over to the snap in parts

    that's the type of fixture most use to keep wires straight and the right spacing:
    http://charliefrancus.com

    ABS can be bent if it's heated, otherwise at room temperature it'll crack. Originally when I thought I was going to be using steel, I came up with 3d printable fixtures (flat, quick printing, cheap). I can easily play with angles and radius sizes:
    wire_bend_fixture_(resized).jpgwire_bend_fixture_(resized).jpg

    Keep in mind when bending steel, often you have to overbend because steel (especially higher carbon) will tend to spring back (unless you hot form it, but that would only work if you machined a fixture).

    #1489 8 years ago

    So I beefed up my brackets a bit because I found I could crack them from snapping the ABS rods into them. So as I predicted, ABS will flex, but you won't get tight turns. However, you can get by with a bracket every 4 inches. The polyethylene tubing flexes great, but you may need bracket supports every 1-2 inches. This shouldn't be a big deal since 3d printing is cheap (each bracket without base or ball joint is a nickel each). Here's a test I did on my carpet with a VHS tape giving it some angle:
    prototype_plastic_wireform_ramp_(resized).JPGprototype_plastic_wireform_ramp_(resized).JPG

    Here's a quick video:

    Anyone that wants to try the bracket out, I've uploaded it to the bottom of the pinballmakers files section. If you need an STL file to send directly to a printer, PM me.

    #1495 8 years ago
    Quoted from Bonnevil69:

    I love to use as much metal parts in my games as possible. Want to make the parts for a custom machine once. I dont want to have to constantly make repairs to finished games. The list of parts i've made for other custom machines is getting pretty long. Love helping other people get customs done

    The plastic was more intended for quick prototyping for designing the layout, just like nobody is going to leave cardboard ramps that represent the final vacuum molding plastic ramps (though the nightmare before christmas had hundreds of plays at expo and held up).

    Curious what your cost and leadtime is to make a wireform ramp for someone?

    1 week later
    #1510 8 years ago

    I'm biased because I've been a tester of this project, but take a serious look at this. Very simple and affordable pinball controller platform for making whitewoods, and it's been tested to work with the mission pinball framework
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/507097900/open-pinball-project-open-source-pinball-hardware

    3 weeks later
    #1517 8 years ago

    Wood rails are typically 1/2" wide, 1" tall. If you need to add extra inlanes, you need to go to 1/16" steel with welded thread posts to mount through the playfield

    3 weeks later
    #1540 7 years ago

    Neat.. 9x9 couldn't make any ramps, and for $350 I would definitely try to build my own

    4 weeks later
    #1554 7 years ago
    Quoted from lachied:

    Got my 3D printed Gamer of Thrones wall lift wired up and working

    guh? You're making one even though Stern made one?

    Quoted from lachied:

    It is a bit slow at the moment, not sure how much I can speed the stepper motors up.

    I'd suggest looking into a less fine pitched thread

    2 weeks later
    3 weeks later
    #1575 7 years ago
    Quoted from Air_Pinball:

    So, without reading 32 pages, did we ever determine the minimum parts to get a Whitewood up and flipping?

    $40 each flipper mech
    $40 each sling mech
    $90 4-ball trough
    $14 pair of lane guides
    $15 1/2 x 24" x 48" plywood
    $20 - set of playfield hangers
    $20 - OPP driverboards
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/507097900/open-pinball-project-open-source-pinball-hardware
    $30 - 48v 7A power supply off ebay
    $1 - 5v from usb
    $1 usb cord
    $3 - 6 posts for slings
    $2 - bands for slings
    ------------------------------------
    $356

    All of this implies you are capable of cutting basic shapes out of wood for trough, shooter lane, and can print out a template for your layout of parts. Also that you already have a cabinet to put it in, and it has a shooter rod.

    I'm reworking a new playfield layout, and I'm seeing how many things I can 3d print so I don't have to buy mech assemblies.

    #1577 7 years ago
    Quoted from VacFink:

    save some by salvaging parts from a well worn populated playfield.

    I wouldn't suggest this, unless it's a modern pin. I salvaged a stern memory lane, and ended up only salvaging the ball trough (which I'm now changing anyway), so I feel slightly guilty about that. The flipper mechs were big and bulky, the sling mechs were multiple pieces which were too painful to line up. Having modular sub-assemblies makes it much easier to lay them out (hole for opening, couple mount holes).

    Quoted from VacFink:

    If you buy a populated playfield, you can get a great 'starter' set of little bits and pieces, but you might push it pretty close to new prices if the parts are worn and need to be rebuilt.

    Yes.. this. It's not usually worth it.

    Quoted from VacFink:

    Even if you buy the complete flipper mech from Marco (50-80 bucks each), you still need bats and bushings, buttons, switches, screws and bolts.

    flipper mechs are $40 from pinball life.. and you're right I forgot the bats and rubbers aren't included. Buttons should be with a cabinet. Switches aren't necessary for a flipping whitewood, that implies code (which doesn't happen until you have a good layout). screws are negligible in cost.

    #1580 7 years ago
    Quoted from Air_Pinball:

    I can't make head nor tails of the Open Pinball Project. His website has nothing about where to order or use these driver boards

    He's always pushed for "oh just download the files off github and assemble". However he had a kickstarter that sold 6-8 board packages, and he's trying to get fully assembled boards up on your favorite mod site soon.

    #1582 7 years ago

    3d printed lower end proof of concept. I dont have a coil mounted yet, and probably need to make a few slight adjustments after assembling, but not bad for a first try:

    I do have a scoop printed, I just didn't show it mounted for the purpose of showing the concept. Everything you see printed is at fast speed, and no support. I think parts printed fairly well considering.

    #1587 7 years ago
    Quoted from Air_Pinball:

    Aaron from Fast emailed me today to say he's putting together a kit that will be what most people want to get up and running

    any details what that includes? boards, components, a whitewood starter?

    #1591 7 years ago

    Just a heads up, Pinball life now sells spinner sub-assemblies (with no lower components):
    http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=4118

    He didn't really announce it, I just happened to notice it in the homebrew section. I just picked one up today to play with. Loves me some spinners.

    1 week later
    #1610 7 years ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    I've finished putting up a preliminary guide to using the Open Pinball Project boards on the Pinball Makers site.

    http://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php/OPP

    OPP is by far the cheapest way to get a custom game going - often you can do a game for less than $100 in parts.

    DUDE!! nice writeup!!! This is what this project has needed more than anything, a very simple and clean explanation how it works, how it's wired up, and how to program.

    #1612 7 years ago
    Quoted from VacFink:

    Cost for me was a driver, I can fry and make mistakes now almost entirely without fear! That does a lot for experimentation.

    EXACTLY! cost of entry is already cheap for the package. Let's say you cross a wire on a coil, replace a FET. Blow up the driver IC? As long as you socketed it, easily replaced.

    I really hope as more people use OPP, people can see what a great system it is. And not to bash any competitors (they all have their positives), he did a nice writeup of real cost comparison (and limitations) of each system:
    https://openpinballproject.wordpress.com/2016/08/14/8142016-cost-smackdown-opp-vs-fast-vs-p-roc/

    #1617 7 years ago
    Quoted from oohlou:

    What IC are you talking about here? From fantasygoat's write up I thought the writing was 48V directly to coil lug, diode between lugs, other lug to solenoid wing which connects to processor board. So isn't the only IC in this circuit the processor?

    Gah, nevermind.. I forgot it changed on the new revision. I had one of the early boards where you programmed an IC chip to determine PWM hold power and how quickly it switched to PWM (typically for flippers).

    1 week later
    #1683 7 years ago

    Pinballmakers files: Added a spinner model about a week ago if anyone is thinking about buying one from pinball life. Just added a non-standard loop-da-loop ramp at the bottom of the page and started a new sub-category (Non standard parts). As I get some of the other 3d printed parts tested (sling lanes, trough, apron), I'll be adding those as well.

    1 month later
    #1692 7 years ago
    Quoted from Edenecho:

    What is the MINIMUM needed for making two flippers activate?

    - 2xFlipper mechs
    - Raspberry pi ?
    - ?

    You need full flipper mechs ($40 each)
    flipper bats ($3 each)
    Flipper rubber ($.40 each)
    Flipper bushings
    Then you need something that will safely pull 48v. Some sort of simple logic board that can turn a FET on/off, but you also need to be able to PWM the coil for hold power otherwise it will burn up (unless you use a double coil, and a separate 12v power supply and an end of stroke switch)

    #1694 7 years ago
    Quoted from swinks:

    Would be cool if Fast or someone else could make a little board just for the shot testing phase, reckon they would sell well and get more people taking the leap..

    OPP boards can already do that. Problem is you need to assemble a small board and program a driver to define the delay of the PWM.

    #1696 7 years ago
    Quoted from Edenecho:

    what do you mean by PWM?

    Pulse Width Modulation. When you have dimmers on your LED lamps in your home, it's not actually dimming them, it's pulsing them very fast to create the effect of a dimmer light. On coils it's very similar if you are only using one voltage. Imagine a second of time, and splitting that time into 8 sections. If you wanted to create the effect of having only 24volts, you would pulse power every other 1/8th second. If you wanted to simulate 12v holding power, it would be every 4th second, or twice power on a second, and 3/4 of the time off. This happens so fast you don't see it (though you typically hear a coil noise). PWM is typically split into thousands of chunks per second, so you have a much greater scale of control.

    When I said set delay, I mean you have to tell it how long it does full power 48v, and then when to switch to PWM. I think it's typically something pretty short, like 40 milliseconds.

    #1704 7 years ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    I saw a home brew game in the fast booth at expo running classic bally digit displays and a two-digit display on the playfield. I'd be interested to hear how that was achieved

    Scott Danesi's total annihilation
    http://www.scottdanesi.com/?page_id=783

    He's using PROC, which CAN support segment displays
    http://www.pinballcontrollers.com/forum/index.php?topic=1430.0

    1 week later
    #1728 7 years ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    I'm happy to comment on my breaking shit while building pinball!
    Here's a small stack of processor boards I've fried while figuring out my custom power supply.

    How could you! Frying $4 boards

    1 week later
    #1746 7 years ago

    what's going on with pinballmakers.com? It's showing all the pages recently deleted.
    http://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

    1 week later
    #1759 7 years ago
    Quoted from benheck:

    Unlike the previous there's also a large top clamp and a foam cartridge system. This allows you to rapidly prototype, then pull out the standard 20x30" foam sheet and insert a fresh one

    Yes! this is what I'm talking about. Keep the lower 1/3 the same on a sturdy piece of wood that doesn't change, try a layout. If it doesn't work, pop it out and try again. Still curious how you deal with things like VUKs, pop bumpers, and other mechs on foam core (or do you?). Are you only using foam core to tweak how it shoots? I would assume the next step would be prototyping the foam to 2/3 upper wood?

    1 month later
    #1765 7 years ago
    Quoted from Mbecker:

    What wire sizes are you using for 48v and 12/5v lines? Where's the best place to grab a bunch of wire?

    Wire size is specified by amps, not volts. 48V I believe I'm using 16 or 18 gauge wire because it's driving coils and can push 3-4 peak amps easily. Whatever power supply you use, you're going to want to add inline caps to smooth it out.

    5v doesn't need much at all since it's all logic, could easily get away with 28 gauge, but I'd buy something more like 24 gauge so it's not so weak. I buy most of my wire in general on amazon in lower quantities.

    Check the pinballmakers site for more info:
    http://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php/Construction#Wiring

    #1771 7 years ago

    thought this was interesting. It's a plotter that you set on any surface, and it will draw what you send as a vector file on a piece of paper. If they can expand this to playfield size, imagine simply plotting each layer using paint markers, then clearing. I'd be curious how well you could get it aligned though?
    http://shop.evilmadscientist.com/productsmenu/846

    4 months later
    #1796 6 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    Total piece of garbage, imo

    Quoted from Aurich:

    Get what you pay for.

    I like the small footprint being vertical, and naturally the sawdust falls out of the way.. Though that also forces you to add support by leaving partial sections behind that you have to manually cut off.

    Shopbots in that size are like $18k, this is pretty impressive for what it is. I'm guessing it's going to need a lot of refinement, sort of like buying the first cheap 3d printers.

    1 month later
    #1816 6 years ago
    Quoted from Fifty:

    I installed Draftsight today

    draftsight is the most common most used autocad clone, I even use it at work. I would just print the blank playfield on 8.5x11 paper, and make many copies.. let them go to town on clipboards on the couch. If one of their layouts look interesting, you can always scan that in, and insert the image into draftsight and scale appropriately. Then you can trace the drawing to create a vector file.

    #1821 6 years ago
    Quoted from Fifty:

    What's the standard dimensions for a Williams SS PF? I thought it was 20.5" x 46". Is this incorrect?

    http://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php/Playfield_Sizes

    8 months later
    #1825 6 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    I'm thinking of selling off some more pins to free up space and cash and investing in a laser cutter and a 3D printer. Never cared overmuch about 3D before, but they're just too damn handy if you're messing with things like whitewoods.

    A laser though, I can use the crap out of that. Definitely have some mods that I need it for that would be nice to work on in house.

    Current thinking is a Full Spectrum Laser, either a 5th gen or the Muse, and probably pick up a kit for the Prusa i3 Mk3 and build one of those, it looks pretty impressive.

    Most lasers need venting, unless you buy that desktop model with the filter kit (but it has limited space)

    I have the prusa i3 mk2. The mk3 has major improvements (as far as sensors and ease of assembly). They are absolutely workhorses. However with that said, any i3 (including the $300 monoprice) is just as functional. In some way, simpler can sometimes be better. I've dug my nozzle on the prusa into the PEI bedsheet twice since I've owned it by not re-calibrating (which can be time consuming). Once you level the monoprice one (I have mine hard mounted, not on springs), it will pretty much print everytime.

    #1828 6 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    The i3 mk3 kit is reasonable price wise, I see no need to compromise with a cheaper clone, I want all the new functionality. Especially that new bed setup.

    if you ever want a 2nd, it's a good choice too. Prusa size is slightly bigger (like 8x9.5x9). If you really want to go big, the CR-10 is 12x12x16 and around $400 but some people complain about it taking longer to warm up the bed, plus the bed isn't as stiff as it needs to be (prusa has thick aluminum base that will not flex), many of the chinese printers use thing stamped aluminum.

    Honestly, anyone that is going to do a homebrew project is a fool to not have a 3d printer as cheap as they are, and there's great free software like fusion360. Print ramps, walls, brackets, any part you can possibly imagine. Ed (fourtytwo) that's doing the ghost in the shell project wasn't going to buy one, but I convinced him it would be beneficial. He finally bought an Anet A8 (not great, but does the job), and he's now printing brackets for his LED strips.

    #1830 6 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    My Metallica hammers had a 3D printed core, but I outsourced the actual printing. (This guy named Scott Danesi did them, I dunno, doubt you've heard of him.)

    Ha! he printed a few bezels for my lcd mods initially, then I finally took the plunge and just bought my own. Nothing against Scott, but his printers were always running (as do mine now), as does anyone with 3d printers. Sucks waiting in queue, it's amazing when you can export your model, slice it, and be printing within 5 minutes.

    #1837 6 years ago
    Quoted from jim5six:

    I occasionally look at shapeways and even upload a model to see if its worth it to just order the print... haven't done that yet, but it may be coming

    If you need an outside source for printing, shapeways is good for specialty stuff like metal parts or ceramic. If you just need hobby quality prints, I'd recommend voodoo manufacturing:
    https://voodoomfg.com

    Very competitive pricing, online instant quote, and fast turn-around time. They are something like a 200 printer farm in NY.

    #1844 6 years ago
    Quoted from Yellowdog:

    I've had a 3D printer for a few years now and have come to the conclusion that to be able to make just about anything, you need a combination of 3D printing (additive) and milling (subtractive). So I recently purchased a Link Sprite CNC engraver from Micro Center. (http://www.microcenter.com/product/473125/mini_CNC_Engraver_Machine)
    Certainly not the most full featured out there, but it looks like it will be able to create what I am looking to do with it as well as being able to mill circuit boards for prototyping.
    ken

    In prototyping the only time you want additive is if the part you're making has less material being removed than adding from scratch. With that said, cnc is good for precision parts, or complicated geometry (or if you have the talent and equipment, make a mold to injection mold plastic parts). I would agree with Aurich, a 3d printer and laser cutter should provide you with the tools you need to make whatever.

    I hate to use benheck as an example but look what he has at his shop. 6-7 3d printers, a laser cutter, and a giant CNC (usually only used when he's cutting wood or plastic pieces that exceed his laser cutter) which is usually very long structural pieces or giant gears. CNC equipment (even with a good vacuum system) can be really messy (not to mention very loud), and is usually something you have to keep an eye on unlike the other 2 methods which are fairly safe.

    As far as milling your pcbs, I don't think I've even ever seen Ben do this method? He pretty much prototypes on breadboards, creates a gerber file in something like eaglesoft, and then sends that out to a board house (because it's dirt cheap and fast). Until you can press a button and a 3d printer like machine spits out something resembling a pcb, there doesn't seem to be much point to spending your time fabricating a pcb layout.

    #1856 6 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Just ran some numbers at Ponoko for laser cutting. Leaving out material costs I'm looking at around $80 just to cut what I need for this mod idea I've been kicking around for years now. Say you sell 100 of them, even for an expensive custom mod that's not an unreasonable number. Looking at $8,000 in cutting costs.

    My time is worth something, I don't always want to babysit tools and do it all myself, but damn, that's a hell of an argument for buying a cutter and doing just that. Not like you gotta 'work' while it's cutting, just stay near it to make sure shit doesn't catch on fire while you do other things.

    I think you have your answer.
    If you manage to sell 100, you have paid for the upfront capital investment (well plus the materials), then it's high profit after that.

    Let's say you only end up selling 50. Well you could either sell the laser cutter for a little over half, and cut your losses. Or, you come up with another mod, and another mod until you finally get it paid off.

    3 months later
    4 months later
    #1864 5 years ago
    Quoted from orangegsx:

    Basically I just want flippers, bumpers, and slings that work while designing it. Will that be pretty simple to do without an mpu? I would rather just get a solenoid driver board for now while messing with it and figure out the lights and mpu later. Thanks for any tips

    Either buy an existing used/new mpu/driverboard (knowing you'll also have to make a wire harness to tap to all the coils)
    OR

    The most basic way to flip a game without any CPU control is buy flipper mechs with end of stroke switches and 3 lug coils. That way you can run a 12v and 48v power supply to them, and the EOS switch will mechanically switch from 48v to 12v for flipper hold. The slings and pop bumpers should only activate temporarily on their own (but just be aware that if either of those should get stuck on, there's no safety logic to tell it to cut power so it will slowly start to smoke). But you're developing a layout so it's a non-issue. It's only a safety issue when it's being played unattended.

    https://www.pinballlife.com/full-flipper-assembly-for-williamsbally-machines-from-021984-to-011987.html

    #1866 5 years ago
    Quoted from MrSanRamon:

    If you go that route you have a lot of work to do to get a machine up and running. I suggest getting a worn out early SS game and using it as a test bed to get your feet wet.

    Pat Lawlor used a road kings for his core guts to build wreck n' ball, which of course became banazi run
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wrecking-ball-pin-proto-banzai-run

    Problem is finding a wrecked early solid state machine that isn't more than a few hundred bucks. Soon as you start encroaching $500-$600 you might as well buy a PROC and run skeleton game or mission pinball framework which will get you a flipping game with basic scoring.

    #1868 5 years ago
    Quoted from MrSanRamon:

    Even at $600, you get a cab, backbox, probably legs, and a lot of parts to get you started on this endeavor. Even if you have to buy an Alltek of Rottendog board, you are in pretty good shape.

    Guess it depends on what you have.
    My project started by buying a non-working Stern memory lane for $150. Stripped the cabinet, painted it, then made the realization I wanted more than a single layer so I gave the cabinet away. My intention was to re-use the playfield parts, but the pop bumpers and flippers were in terrible shape, the sling mechs suck (it's like 5 pieces and I could never cut the hole right where it wasn't interfering). Only thing I really salvaged from the entire playfield was the ball trough (sold the empty playfield for $20).

    I ended up finding a friend that was giving away an F14 cabinet so that's what I'm using now.

    I also have 4 sets of semi-rusty legs I can use for whatever (bought them from a friend that swapped out legs for new ones).

    For certain, don't bother buying used mechs. You don't save much, and the reason why the person is selling them is either they bought used ones from an op, or they replaced entire mech assemblies from a project pinball and usually need everything replaced (so you aren't really saving money).

    1 year later
    #1872 4 years ago
    Quoted from s1500:

    Is there some off-the-shelf capacitor board I can buy that would be suitable for a homebrew pin? I swore I saw one on the pictures in pinballmakers.

    https://mezelmods.com/products/open-pinball-project-power-supply-filter-board

    https://www.multimorphic.com/store/circuit-boards/power-entry/

    3 months later
    #1877 3 years ago

    Marco posted this video recently.. They make wireforms so easily (some good techniques)

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