Let's figure out the minimum parts to build a whitewood


By Aurich

2 years ago


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    There are 1817 posts in topic. You are on page 23 of 37.
    #1102 2 years ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    Detailed on Pinball Makers:
    http://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php/Construction#Wireforms

    That is an awesome breakdown of the process! I will be doing exactly this when I get back from vacation.

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #1103 2 years ago
    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    Also I would be willing to bet there isn't a single enforceable patent of any kind on the overall layout of shots on a pinball machine, maybe on individual ideas or features, but not the layout as a whole.

    There were plenty of copied playfields/shots by other companies over the years (think Playboy=SexyGirl) and you did not see any lawsuits.....

    #1104 2 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    There were plenty of copied playfields/shots by other companies over the years (think Playboy=SexyGirl) and you did not see any lawsuits

    exactly.. plus with companies releasing 4-6 titles/year, imagine how expensive that would get patenting a layout everytime.

    #1105 2 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    There were plenty of copied playfields/shots by other companies over the years (think Playboy=SexyGirl) and you did not see any lawsuits.....

    Exactly - and that was when pinball patents would actually be useful to obstruct competition. If it didn't happen in the golden years of pinball, I don't see how it could effectively happen now.

    #1106 2 years ago

    "Anyone who is really good at CAD able to help me (and everyone else who wants to do a widebody) out?

    What do you want to see? I can start with the William bottom, How wide do you wnat it? How many Inlanes/outlanes? Standard Sling spacing?

    What CAD format would you want it in?

    Bob

    #1107 2 years ago

    The last of the Williams patents are expiring in the next year or so, so it would not matter anyway. By the time any game here entered production, all would be in the clear.

    #1108 2 years ago
    Quoted from BobLangelius:

    What do you want to see? I can start with the William bottom, How wide do you wnat it? How many Inlanes/outlanes? Standard Sling spacing?
    What CAD format would you want it in?

    Well, if I had exactly what I want it would be the lower third of William's Indy. My lower third shares a little of what Indy does, but my crossover lane is on the left side.

    As to what format, all that I have is the free version of DraftSight.

    #1109 2 years ago

    I don't have access to a WMS IJ ,but i do have a STTNG PF. let me see what i can work up in the next couple of days.

    Bob

    #1110 2 years ago
    Quoted from JackB:

    Bonnevil69's metal work is amazing. His VUK thread build is still my favorite thread as far as pinball construction goes.

    Thanks I appreciate it. I will be at expo this year

    #1111 2 years ago
    Quoted from BobLangelius:

    I don't have access to a WMS IJ ,but i do have a STTNG PF. let me see what i can work up in the next couple of days.

    Thanks, man.

    #1112 2 years ago

    JackB,
    I am slammed at work, with luck i can look at it Sunday.
    Bob

    #1113 2 years ago
    Quoted from BobLangelius:

    JackB,
    I am slammed at work, with luck i can look at it Sunday.
    Bob

    I'm just grateful that you are going to look at it at all. Thanks.

    #1115 2 years ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    Terry just added a homebrew section!
    http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=catalog&parent=378&pg=1

    I really like it!

    Terry, please add pre-cut playfield templates, sized properly and with the "italian" bottom or whatever the hell it's called already cut on it.

    I'm seriously *this* close to ordering a CNC router to cut my own. I can't do it with my hands, it will look like dog shit.

    #1116 2 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    Terry, please add pre-cut playfield templates, sized properly and with the "italian" bottom or whatever the hell it's called already cut on it.

    I'm seriously *this* close to ordering a CNC router to cut my own. I can't do it with my hands, it will look like dog shit.

    He should.. even though he doesn't own one, I know he does a lot of business with Charlie Emery. Second best option is to contact Ben Heck:
    http://www.benheck.com/services

    #1117 2 years ago

    Nice section, I just thought of a question:

    If you look at the assembly page http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=catalog&parent=394&pg=1 ,
    It struck me.. what is the difference between Shooter Lane Auto Kicker Assembly, and Sega/Stern Auto Plunger Arm Weld Assembly ?

    On my Mass Effect game I have settled on a plunge-button, like MM, and not a plunger. Which of the above would be the correct to use?

    #1118 2 years ago
    Quoted from Edenecho:

    It struck me.. what is the difference between Shooter Lane Auto Kicker Assembly, and Sega/Stern Auto Plunger Arm Weld Assembly ?

    The Stern assembly looks like only the plate plus coil, there's no plunger, bell or spring. The williams assembly is complete and drops right in, just mount and hook up power.

    #1119 2 years ago
    Quoted from Edenecho:

    On my Mass Effect game I have settled on a plunge-button, like MM, and not a plunger. Which of the above would be the correct to use

    Don't use either of those. Use this

    http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=3384

    The other two are for plunger and auto fire. If you only need auto fire don't bother with those more expensive mechs (imo at least )

    #1120 2 years ago
    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    Don't use either of those. Use this
    http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=3384
    The other two are for plunger and auto fire. If you only need auto fire don't bother with those more expensive mechs (imo at least )

    That's what I would say as well.

    I'm really liking this section. Only a few more projects to clear out before I can get started on my whitewood.

    #1121 2 years ago

    Isn't this the cheapest option?

    http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=675

    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    Don't use either of those. Use this
    http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=3384
    The other two are for plunger and auto fire. If you only need auto fire don't bother with those more expensive mechs (imo at least )

    #1122 2 years ago

    Yeah it could work pending spacing and size issues under the apron, but that's then a non-standard usage of a standard part. The point wasn't so much "here's the cheapest assembly that could work" it was moreso "there are more appropriate auto plungers than those two"

    Being it's homebrew there are obviously no rules though

    #1123 2 years ago
    Quoted from Mocean:

    Isn't this the cheapest option?
    http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=675

    I doubt that coil is strong enough to launch a ball.

    #1124 2 years ago

    I guess the Williams one is the best option, thanks for the input
    I assume it is down to the coding to actually trigger it when pressing a designated "Plunge"-button triggering a switch.

    #1125 2 years ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    I doubt that coil is strong enough to launch a ball.

    Oh. I didn't realize it was a weak coil. Which is it?

    Edit: I think you are wrong. It's a 23-800.

    http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/500-5081-00

    #1126 2 years ago

    same coil in the knocker as the williams ball launch. mechanical advantage is different which may play some effect in the ball launch speed and then the length of the mech might be a disadvantage depending on your design / placement

    12
    #1127 2 years ago

    I decided to put a quick drawing and spreadsheet together to help others with deciding a lower playfield design option.

    The scenario is using the standard available Bally / Williams return lane guides or the Data East / Sega / Stern return lane guides only.

    Please those with custom pin building experience add to this, correct me if needed

    But if sticking to standard off the shelf parts the lane guides and flipper spacing is what determines a 1 of 6 possible layouts. Flipper spacing choice is between 6 3/4", 6 7/8", 7" and 7 1/8" spacing with the middle 2 being the most common.

    Once you decide what you want with flipper spacing and your preferred return lane guides you can quickly see that section "L" is the critical factor to be adjusted (it's not much but enough to scrap your prototype playfield). And for example option 6 you would have to rely on the divider between the rhs outlane and the plunger lane to be a section of 1.5mm SS. You can tweak the return lanes, outlines and sling shot design a little to try and achieve a certain design but if you want to add a extra return lane on one of the sides Section "F" & "J" would have to be custom return wire lane guides and not the moulded plastic ones readily available. Also I doubt you could have a comfortable spaced lower 1/3 layout with 7" flipper spacing or more with Bally / Williams return lane guides.

    "H" isn't a critical figure - more a result of other figures to aid in determining the width of section "L"

    Sections - D & N as well as A & C would hardly ever change and would remain a constant measurement.

    I hope it helps and my apologies for referencing millimetres but that is my preference for the fine details or you could simply divide by 25.4 to get the imperial size. And this is merely some info to help those wanting to design a game to be able to quickly determine spacing of the lower third of their game.

    Also please double check dimensions of parts purchased against the ones I have provided to ensure there is no variances out there from different suppliers.

    Have Fun

    Lower_Playfield_Design.pdf

    #1128 2 years ago

    Very cool swinks. Always makes me feel lazy when I see the ambition of other passionate people

    Much appreciated nonetheless!

    I'll be sure to compare to my bottom PF (since that's all I've managed to accomplish lol) and see if I agree with any given row of your sheet. I 100% agree with your finding on item "L" being the key to making the flipper gap change with standard return lane guides.

    #1129 2 years ago

    Swinks, that is EXACTLY what I need to cut my own. Damn man, that's excellent.

    #1130 2 years ago

    Thanks Swinks, Exactly what i need too...

    #1131 2 years ago
    Quoted from swinks:

    I decided to put a quick drawing and spreadsheet together to help others with deciding a lower playfield design option.
    The scenario is using the standard available Bally / Williams return lane guides or the Data East / Sega / Stern return lane guides only.
    Please those with custom pin building experience add to this, correct me if needed
    But if sticking to standard off the shelf parts the lane guides and flipper spacing is what determines a 1 of 6 possible layouts. Flipper spacing choice is between 6 3/4", 6 7/8", 7" and 7 1/8" spacing with the middle 2 being the most common.
    Once you decide what you want with flipper spacing and your preferred return lane guides you can quickly see that section "L" is the critical factor to be adjusted (it's not much but enough to scrap your prototype playfield). And for example option 6 you would have to rely on the divider between the rhs outlane and the plunger lane to be a section of 1.5mm SS. You can tweak the return lanes, outlines and sling shot design a little to try and achieve a certain design but if you want to add a extra return lane on one of the sides Section "F" & "J" would have to be custom return wire lane guides and not the moulded plastic ones readily available. Also I doubt you could have a comfortable spaced lower 1/3 layout with 7" flipper spacing or more with Bally / Williams return lane guides.
    "H" isn't a critical figure - more a result of other figures to aid in determining the width of section "L"
    Sections - D & N as well as A & C would hardly ever change and would remain a constant measurement.
    I hope it helps and my apologies for referencing millimetres but that is my preference for the fine details or you could simply divide by 25.4 to get the imperial size. And this is merely some info to help those wanting to design a game to be able to quickly determine spacing of the lower third of their game.
    Have Fun
    Lower_Playfield_Design.pdf

    This is great.
    But there is no standard.
    Nba fastbreak is different than MM.
    Because nba has thik wood rail and mm has thin metal rail left.
    Even the slingshot position is different.

    #1132 2 years ago

    agree there is no standard hence why I only focused on using standard off the shelf parts - 2 options of return lane guides.

    it is merely a starting point for people to draw some centre lines and mark up some locations (on a computer or timber) and within a few hours you could have a nice start point.

    I have seen people wanting templates but there are so many options so makes it hard to create the perfect template for everyone and you don't all want the exact same bottom 1/3 design.

    I will soon provide a mark up template (with dimensions) for the 2 types of return lane guides and a typical slingshot to aid people in adding to their layout design.

    also another critical start point is what apron and ball trough mech will be used as that then sort of determines the flipper holes and sets the height for everything.

    glad it would help a few people and if someone wants to add my chart above to the pinball making site, they can.

    #1133 2 years ago

    Thank Swinks! That table answers a lot of questions I still had about the layout. Appreciate your effort!

    If you design you own table, how can you decide what flipper spacing to use?

    #1134 2 years ago
    Quoted from DDDwingmaster:

    If you design you own table, how can you decide what flipper spacing to use?

    that I think is a personal choice thing. I have had a few trudeau games so I like the challenge of the wider spaced flippers (even though I am a average player) so I am basing my custom pin on 7 1/8" flipper spacing

    pick a game you really enjoy playing taking note of the flipper spacing but reckon you can't go wrong going for a 7" or 6 7/8" spacing and go from there.

    there is so much that goes into a design, even if you like loop shots you will have to consider the flipper spacing and the associated slingshot location as this allows a return shot and it starts to set the layout higher above in the playfield.

    #1135 2 years ago

    here is a little more info in comparing the 2 available lane guides

    - the orange is the Bally / Williams one
    - the green is the Sega / Stern one

    They share the same hole centres and angles and cut to the flipper, with the Stern one being a little thinner as well with the top lane hole sitting higher up but pretty much centred to the Bally / Williams one hence as per the chart above that a little bit of lane space is gained with the Stern one but the loss is a bit over a inch of playfield use ???? The mounting holes are smaller in the Sega / Stern guides and these also stand a little taller as well from the playfield to where the plastic would fasten to.

    side view to identify the 2 return lane guides
    lane guide comparison 1.png

    looking from above the size difference
    lane guide comparison 2.png

    hope that aids in selecting the ideal guide for your design.

    Also please double check dimensions of parts purchased against the ones I have provided to ensure there is no variances out there from different suppliers.

    #1136 2 years ago

    I also measure 3 unpopulated play fields that I have and determined the following

    1980 - Bally - Skateball - 7" from the bottom edge of the playfield to the centre of the flipper hole

    1990 - Williams - Whirl Wind - 7.5" from the bottom edge of the playfield to the centre of the flipper hole

    1993 - Bally - Creature From The Black Lagoon - 6 15/16" from the bottom edge of the playfield to the centre of the flipper hole

    I am pretty sure that most of the 90's Bally games shared the same apron in dimensions and it probably wouldn't matter with the flippers set a little higher but I suppose using a ball trough like in a creature around 7" - 7.5" from the edge to flipper hole is safe to design to.

    Not sure on the WPC 90's games from 1995 onwards with the different ball trough as well as the Sterns maybe someone else can chime in with a dimension but this should help those interested to start some marking out.

    #1137 2 years ago

    here are some approximate dimensions of the "Bally" Return Guide in relation to the flipper hole with the placement between the flipper hole and the first hole of the lane guide a choice of yours but it marries up with the dimensions in the above chart and my choice of placement for the moment. The angle is approximately 35 degrees and you would be better off to use the dimensions detailed along that angle rather than the horizontal and vertical dimensions. Here also you can see the reference flipper hole to the end of the playfield at 7". This now should be a good starting point for a lower playfield design but I would recommend sketching on paper first 1:1 to check and then drill, route etc. Have fun.

    Also please double check dimensions of parts purchased against the ones I have provided to ensure there is no variances out there from different suppliers.

    Lower_Playfield_Guide_Dimensions.png

    #1138 2 years ago

    lastly I did post this pages back but will again with this cluster of info a playfield doodle page that you can print and sketch ideas.

    Have fun

    playfield_doodle.jpg

    #1139 2 years ago

    I think Cliffy also sells stainless replacement frames like the sys7, 11 and funhouse.

    Bob

    #1140 2 years ago

    I like that the Williams return lanes allow you to choose how to "finish off" the top of the guide with your own post selection or geometry. You can make more interesting inlane/outlane features in that regard. I think when Stern uses metal inlane guides you'll notice they often elect to leave space at the top to place (or not place) posts, rubbers, wireforms, etc... These inlane guides also appear to be as wide as the Williams ones actually... at least in tron and metallica

    Capture.jpg
    Capture2.jpg

    1 week later
    #1141 2 years ago

    So who here hates leaf switches and would like to see more cherry switches being used?

    #1142 2 years ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    So who here hates leaf switches and would like to see more cherry switches being used?

    I'm actually really curious to see how these hall effect switches Heighway is using work out. It's funny to not see the switch, I'm experimenting with putting graphics down where the switch is on Alien just so you have a mental place to know the ball is triggering something.

    #1143 2 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    I'm actually really curious to see how these hall effect switches Heighway is using work out

    I give them major props for going this route. No dust going through the playfield, no cutouts, nearly limitless switch cycles. I bought a couple on ebay, but they didn't come with very good instructions on how they function so I gave up for now.

    My current project I have brackets for mounting a cherry switch in the drain troft, the flipper buttons, and standup targets (slings are next). I much prefer the stiffness and that snap action of a cherry switch over leaf switches that always bend out of alignment, and are no longer necessary since high voltage is typically not going through them anymore on modern controllers.

    #1144 2 years ago

    Hall effect / proximity switches are really cool and very accurate and commonly used on cnc machines. They will vary considering what range they can pickup metal - so can be a 1mm to 10mm. Though they might be a little more than a micro switch they will last for years with no adjustment required. Depending on the type another option is to get the tip closer to the ball is house on the under side of a insert so dirt still does not come through, switch is protected - and you could even have full art of it and not see the insert. Many have a led light in the back to aid in setting and checking the pickup range.

    #1145 2 years ago

    That's one thing that hasn't really advanced at all in decades - switch tech in pins. What other options are there besides optos and hall effects?

    #1146 2 years ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    That's one thing that hasn't really advanced at all in decades - switch tech in pins. What other options are there besides optos and hall effects?

    Super fast and super sensitive RFID embedded into ball!

    - Gerry
    http://www.multimorphic.com

    #1147 2 years ago

    Im not sold on hall effect switches for pins. going to be interesting to see how they pan out in heighways games.

    #1148 2 years ago
    Quoted from BloodyCactus:

    Im not sold on hall effect switches for pins. going to be interesting to see how they pan out in heighways games.

    Any reason you're not sold? They sound good on paper at least.

    #1149 2 years ago
    Quoted from BloodyCactus:

    Im not sold on hall effect switches for pins. going to be interesting to see how they pan out in heighways games.

    They worked just fine in New Castia 8 years ago.

    13.jpg

    2.jpg

    #1150 2 years ago

    i wonder about their accuracy with more than one ball in proximity. how close does the ball get before detection? can it detect really fast ball movement? their magnetic, there is lots of metal on a pin, and lots of interference from the coils and magnets.

    maybe its paranoia or something you just have to see in practice.

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