Let's figure out the minimum parts to build a whitewood


By Aurich

2 years ago


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    There are 1817 posts in topic. You are on page 22 of 37.
    #1051 2 years ago

    Am i the only person that builds machines to not cad out everything before i build it? I just build it. Not bragging or anything Just never learned cad and cant draw to save my life. Sincerely asking if others do it

    #1052 2 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Right, that's why I thought the number was so cool. If there are "literally hundreds" then that means there must be just a ton of homebrew projects I've never seen.

    There are, and I've never seen many of them either! We get pre-sale emails and orders from many people who never ask for help or talk about their projects on any public forum I read. Sometimes they email us with pics and videos after their projects are complete, and sometimes we see them for the first time when they choose to reveal the games to the public. I suspect you'd be surprised how many repeat orders we get from folks who claim to have finished one game and are starting on their next.

    To Rosh's point, our customers are worldwide. There are probably 100+ custom projects being developed right now over in Europe... both personal and professional projects. There are a bunch in Australia and New Zealand too. I hope we'll get so see them all some day, but it's unlikely many of them will make their way over here. Also, it's not uncommon for folks to tell me they don't want people judging their efforts. Most just do it for fun.

    - Gerry
    http://www.pinballcontrollers.com
    http://www.multimorphic.com

    #1053 2 years ago

    well said Brian and nice work with MPF

    and thanks to both Gerry and Aaron for making custom game building possible

    #1054 2 years ago

    it's definitely cool we can even have this discussion about different platforms.

    Here's to seeing a bunch of games at shows powered by both systems!

    Spaceballs will debut at SFGE in 2016 as an example of what's capable with FAST.

    #1055 2 years ago
    Quoted from Bonnevil69:

    Am i the only person that builds machines to not cad out everything before i build it? I just build it. Not bragging or anything Just never learned cad and cant draw to save my life. Sincerely asking if others do it

    I am with you, man. When I designed the playfield frame/rail system I started to do it in software but gave up and bought a welder and learned to weld. I enjoy a physical prototype. When I made the fold up design of the portable pinball machine, it was angles on angles on angles. I made some measurements and did some math, then got to marking and cutting.

    The only thing I do in software first is 3D printing. You sorta have to.

    Not every try is a raving success, though. The "carve and wax spray foam as a foam-core ramp alternative" has been stuck at this stage since the foam dried in 2013.

    IMG_5970.jpg

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #1056 2 years ago

    Very glad to hear Somebody else skips the cad design process. That foam approach , I don't know what to say about that one

    #1057 2 years ago
    Quoted from fastpinball:

    Not every try is a raving success, though. The "carve and wax spray foam as a foam-core ramp alternative" has been stuck at this stage since the foam dried in 2013.

    I love seeing alternate ways to create things. The cardboard ramps seem to work pretty well so long as you reinforce them with cardboard gussets (see nightmare before christmas). That thing has very long curvy ramps, and I've yet to see the ball get stuck. It's going to play super fast once he moves over to plastic or steel.

    seriously though, don't assume things are going to work like you think they are, gravity might be consistent but shots are not. Once you create your first ramp from cardboard. You might (probably) will have to start over, and that's ok. You'll see what works and what doesn't, and you'll just get better and faster at building ramps. Before you know it, making small tweaks and rebuilding a ramp can be done in less than an hour and your layout will go much faster.

    #1058 2 years ago
    Quoted from Bonnevil69:

    Very glad to hear Somebody else skips the cad design process. That foam approach , I don't know what to say about that one

    I feel like we might need to lighten the mood in here a bit with designer/builder photos in the "yeah... so that didn't work" category! Or maybe not...

    When my good friend Roy was kind enough to let me borrow his 3D Printer, my life changed! Printing the ramp in sections and then dissolving the ABS with acetone to glue them together was awesome.

    Full Sized 3D Printed Left Pred... Ramp

    Even taking the bandsaw to it and altering it made it a snap to bind it back together.

    Crafting some pinball

    I made these basic ball guides to experiment with so I wouldnt keep wrecking my metal pieces while guessing and checking.

    ABS Prototype Guide

    ABS Prototype Guides be printing

    We even used 3D prints to experiment with FAST hardware form factors. Yeah, I am obnoxious like that...

    Prototyping the FAST Daughterboard Interface

    I love this part of pinball for sure!

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #1059 2 years ago

    I have a wall that i hang all my failures on surprisingly most aren't failed designs. usually flukes during welding like a sneeze mid arc will cut a rail in half every time LOL. I cant show pics of it because of all the designs from other peoples builds are up there. some have NDA agreements

    #1060 2 years ago

    I call it The Wall of Shame

    #1061 2 years ago

    Are those lego trees on there?? Im assuming theve been Kraguled lol

    #1062 2 years ago

    kragled... lol

    yes great work with the 3D printer for trial and error stuff.

    #1063 2 years ago

    I've got some great "screw ups" and stuff from Spaceballs. I'll post some tomorrow night when I'm back at my laptop.

    #1064 2 years ago
    Quoted from Bonnevil69:

    I have a wall that i hang all my failures on surprisingly most aren't failed designs. usually flukes during welding like a sneeze mid arc will cut a rail in half every time LOL. I cant show pics of it because of all the designs from other peoples builds are up there. some have NDA agreements

    The mid-weld sneeze is something I have not done yet! Welding is awesome. Scary as hell (I use a flux core wire welded) at first, but really cool. I would let the kids watch me weld from across the yard wearing extra welding goggles. My youngest's first drawing was of me welding. Aww.

    Your game was the one at Expo that had all the elaborate metal work, wasn't it?

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #1065 2 years ago
    Quoted from Bonnevil69:

    Are those lego trees on there?? Im assuming theve been Kraguled lol

    The Legos are there for place holders. No Kraguled! I thought I could test shooting the left ramp with the Legos safely to the side, but one loose ball sent Legos exploding across the shop floor.

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #1066 2 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    I've got some great "screw ups" and stuff from Spaceballs. I'll post some tomorrow night when I'm back at my laptop.

    Nice. Let's all have a little sharing session. It's would be good for the new designers to see how many times it takes to get some of this stuff right! Nobody factors in the cost of iteration into what it takes to build a game.

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #1067 2 years ago
    Quoted from swinks:

    kragled... lol
    yes great work with the 3D printer for trial and error stuff.

    I can honestly say my life is better because there is a 3D printer in it!

    MC Color Changing Ore Block

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #1068 2 years ago
    Quoted from fastpinball:

    Let's all have a little sharing session. It's would be good for the new designers to see how many times it takes to get some of this stuff right

    I tried to replicate the loop-da-loop ramp shot from gottlieb gold wings. As of this morning I'm on like my 7th try (cardboard and steel hot glued together). Needless to say, I'm giving up on it. Even if I could get it to work how I want it, it won't be reliable, and I can only imagine horrible ball hangs.

    #1069 2 years ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    I tried to replicate the loop-da-loop ramp shot from gottlieb Gold Wings. As of this morning I'm on like my 7th try (cardboard and steel hot glued together). Needless to say, I'm giving up on it. Even if I could get it to work how I want it, it won't be reliable, and I can only imagine horrible ball hangs.

    This is the kind of challenge I love! I need to go look this up.

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #1070 2 years ago
    Quoted from fastpinball:

    This is the kind of challenge I love! I need to go look this up.

    recent posts show my frustration:
    http://homebrewpinball.blogspot.com

    #1071 2 years ago
    Quoted from fastpinball:

    I thought I could test shooting the left ramp with the Legos safely to the side, but one loose ball sent Legos exploding across the shop floor.

    That would be a fun virtual pinball game in and of itself. LEGO(TM) Demolition Crew.

    #1072 2 years ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    I tried to replicate the loop-da-loop ramp shot from gottlieb Gold Wings. As of this morning I'm on like my 7th try (cardboard and steel hot glued together). Needless to say, I'm giving up on it. Even if I could get it to work how I want it, it won't be reliable, and I can only imagine horrible ball hangs

    It looks like solid progression, I wouldn't give up if its a feature you want, that looks like its half the fun. Once you have the paper version sorted out, you also have the template for the metal, so its a win/win.

    Here's a suggestion. you probably don't need a solid edge to get it to work enough to decide on the size, so instead of a complex and hard to build side wall, create the edge from folded up tabs. Basically cut tiny triangles pointy side toward the run of the ramp, out every 1/2 inch, I'd also maybe put a flexible thin sheet of styrene as a backer for the loop portion, that will firm up the shot and prevent wiggle. You could do the same with a flat piece of metal but it may hold some memory of the shape as you alter. either way it looks like the egde is the time consuming part and that's how I'd tackle it.

    #1073 2 years ago
    Quoted from fastpinball:

    The mid-weld sneeze is something I have not done yet! Welding is awesome. Scary as hell (I use a flux core wire welded) at first, but really cool. I would let the kids watch me weld from across the yard wearing extra welding goggles. My youngest's first drawing was of me welding. Aww.
    Your game was the one at Expo that had all the elaborate metal work, wasn't it?
    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    Welding is by far my favorite skill that i've learned. it can be scary, try laying under a car getting a spark shower. Have to break out the kevlar for those jobs. TIG welding is really scary. I've had the arc jump through my glove more than i would like

    Yep, I made Deadpin

    #1074 2 years ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    I tried to replicate the loop-da-loop ramp shot from gottlieb Gold Wings. As of this morning I'm on like my 7th try (cardboard and steel hot glued together). Needless to say, I'm giving up on it. Even if I could get it to work how I want it, it won't be reliable, and I can only imagine horrible ball hangs.

    Depending on size, I think that could be 3D printed in one piece on a one of the typical consumer grade printers (makerbot clone) with only a bit of cleanup required. It's definitely possible in multiple pieces and it should be plenty strong, especially if ABS was used.

    If you send me a sketch or drawing with the dimensions of the key features required I would love to model it up and try it out just for fun, even if you are abandoning the idea.

    #1075 2 years ago

    nice work on the loop da loop ramp trials

    how about a tubular loop da loop with a slot so you can visually see the ball but the ball can not drop out, you could have a switch on the inside in the slot which detects a non full loop da loop shot.

    loop da loop.png

    alternatively how about a loop da loop ramp with a see through thin polycarbonate roof panel for the ramp so the ball can never fly off the ramp but with a strategic switch on the inside top of the loop as per above or a rectangle with a slot in it. If you want a stl file to print and try out the just yell out.

    Screenshot.png

    #1076 2 years ago
    Quoted from Bonnevil69:

    Welding is by far my favorite skill that i've learned. it can be scary, try laying under a car getting a spark shower. Have to break out the kevlar for those jobs. TIG welding is really scary. I've had the arc jump through my glove more than i would like
    Yep, I made Deadpin

    Yeah, that sounds gnarly! Deadpin! That's right. When I had come by your game, you weren't around. I got to meet some of the other designers. Are you going to be at Expo this year?

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #1077 2 years ago

    another product which is cool to gain curved surfaces is flexible ply / wobble ply which is 3 - 6mm thick. It has 3-5 layers of ply all running in the same direction but once you glue 2 pieces together it firms up a lot.

    Flexible_Plywood_Desktop_Resolution.jpg

    #1078 2 years ago
    Quoted from VacFink:

    so instead of a complex and hard to build side wall, create the edge from folded up tabs. Basically cut tiny triangles pointy side toward the run of the ramp, out every 1/2 inch, I'd also maybe put a flexible thin sheet of styrene as a backer for the loop portion, that will firm up the shot and prevent wiggle

    Tried triangles, worked like crap (just bent over). I cut out open circles with a slit so it could flex as the wall turns. The walls aren't the issue, it's trying to aim sideways. for firmness, I built gussets out of thicker cardboard, I was trying to avoid having to do that everytime.

    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    Depending on size, I think that could be 3D printed in one piece on a one of the typical consumer grade printers (makerbot clone) with only a bit of cleanup required. It's definitely possible in multiple pieces and it should be plenty strong, especially if ABS was used

    I have a 3d model, I didn't want to waste material until I thought I had a viable design (also I only have a printer at work, and try to minimize G-jobs).

    Quoted from swinks:

    how about a loop da loop ramp with a see through thin polycarbonate roof panel for the ramp so the ball can never fly off the ramp

    A more enclosed section may help. I want more than a loop, I'm trying to make the ramp an (S) shape to spell something out (like guns n roses by data east did).

    #1079 2 years ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    A more enclosed section may help. I want more than a loop, I'm trying to make the ramp an (S) shape to spell something out (like Guns n Roses by data east did).

    not understanding you sorry, though at the end of the loop you could design in a jump / ramp if that is what you mean...

    #1080 2 years ago
    Quoted from swinks:

    not understanding you sorry

    sway.jpg

    Guns-N-Roses_0002_Upper-Playfield[1].jpg

    #1081 2 years ago
    Quoted from swinks:

    another product which is cool to gain curved surfaces is flexible ply / wobble ply which is 3 - 6mm thick. It has 3-5 layers of ply all running in the same direction

    Looks like the living hinge stuff (when you laser cuts), except it does it without cuts
    » YouTube video

    #1082 2 years ago

    different approach but same effect but with the flex ply you just buy it as sheet and cut out and have fun, don't need to rely on laser cutting.

    » YouTube video

    I have used the 6mm, 3mm and 1.5mm. The 1.5mm can do 4 inch circles - cool stuff.

    #1083 2 years ago

    a day late to the party (vacation with the fam!) but I'll be running my own hardware, neither Fast/P-ROC but System Shock! open source / open hardware. with family visiting from Australia right now I've little time.

    boards picture here;

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/system-shock

    I would probably be using other hardware but when I started, there wasnt other hardware besides PROC and I determined I could do better for le$$.

    #1084 2 years ago
    Quoted from fastpinball:

    I made these basic ball guides to experiment with so I wouldnt keep wrecking my metal pieces while guessing and checking.

    Nice idea to bend your 3d printed parts. The ball guides I am making are much thicker and thus stiffer and have the curve directly printed. I will try your way too but will print then in a different orientation to make them stronger. Fastpinball, are your printed ball guides strong enough to survive gameplay?

    #1085 2 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    That's awesome Gerry. There are really 200+? Is there any kind of list of them anywhere? What's the most "popular" one? I'm guessing CCC, it's the only one I can think of that's "released".
    Edit: Derp, didn't refresh and see the post above asking almost the same question!

    Just guessing here, but Gerry may be including individual occurrences of each title in the 'literally hundreds' - so ALL the CCCs, ALL the BOP2.0s, etc. In that sense, PROCs really are driving hundreds of games.

    #1086 2 years ago
    Quoted from epthegeek:

    Just guessing here, but Gerry may be including individual occurrences of each title in the 'literally hundreds' - so ALL the CCCs, ALL the BOP2.0s, etc. In that sense, PROCs really are driving hundreds of games.

    Honestly, I wasn't trying to sneakily inflate the number. There are hundreds of unique projects being developed on the P-ROC. Custom pinball is thriving.

    - Gerry
    http://www.pinballcontrollers.com
    http://www.multimorphic.com

    #1087 2 years ago
    Quoted from DDDwingmaster:

    Nice idea to bend your 3d printed parts. The ball guides I am making are much thicker and thus stiffer and have the curve directly printed. I will try your way too but will print then in a different orientation to make them stronger. Fastpinball, are your printed ball guides strong enough to survive gameplay?

    I would never sell a game with the guides I printed in them, that's for sure! I liked using these because it allowed me to easily prototype in a playable form and mount them in the way that they would be mounted in real use. Helps me not to "cheat" with mounds of hot glue or something and they are similar thickness. Foamcore/cardboard was frustrating me for guides because I wasnt the right thickness in some of the tighter areas. The ABS was also easy to cut openings to allow for a sensor or switch. The idea is to get the playfield all designed to test shots without bending and rebending metal guides. They hold up all right, especially for glancing impacts. I find that under tension load (tighter bend) they are more likely to explode after multiple strong, direct hits. To combat this, I was finding the bend I liked and then applying some heat to it to allow it to soften a bit and then harden in the desired bend. That seemed to help a lot.

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #1088 2 years ago

    That's a pity that the 3d printed rails are not strong enough. I saw more comments on the forum (wooly, ben) related to the fragility of the printed parts. Most part are printed using ABS or PLA. There are tons of other plastic to use. Has anyone tried to print parts in PC (polycarbonate) , nylon , or some other stronger plastic for playfield parts ?

    #1089 2 years ago
    Quoted from DDDwingmaster:

    Has anyone tried to print parts in PC (polycarbonate)

    polycarbonate would be your best chance at getting something that would last. Might have to rib the heck out of the back of it to strengthen it.

    #1090 2 years ago
    Quoted from DDDwingmaster:

    That's a pity that the 3d printed rails are not strong enough. I saw more comments on the forum (wooly, ben) related to the fragility of the printed parts. Most part are printed using ABS or PLA. There are tons of other plastic to use. Has anyone tried to print parts in PC (polycarbonate) , nylon , or some other stronger plastic for playfield parts ?

    Keep in mind, the design I created is for prototyping and to be flexible. Printing a guide in the exact curve you wanted, and a little thicker, would hold up a lot better. I have seen some awesome ramp/guide combos 3D printed. Hopefully, one of those such designs will be included in the FAST powered games we bring to Expo in the fall.

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #1091 2 years ago

    How IP (intellectual property) protected is a pinball whiteboard design?
    For certain all the graphics, music , text and sculptures are copyright protected, so you cannot copy them. Same if a pinball mechanic is patented.
    But are there any legal protection on a whiteboard design itself? That is just a configuration of lights, rubbers, pins and other mechanics stuff.
    Say, If I copy a whiteboard design from some existing pinball and would sell them, could there be any legal ramifications?

    #1092 2 years ago
    Quoted from DDDwingmaster:

    Say, If I copy a whiteboard design from some existing pinball and would sell them, could there be any legal ramifications?

    I highly doubt it, but what are you inferring? Routing out, say a Stern Metallica playfield (minus inserts and art) and selling it?

    #1093 2 years ago

    here are some of Stern's I think
    http://patents.justia.com/assignee/stern-pinball-inc

    though curious about the one lighting up playfields with leds?

    edit, just did a search and it seems like it has been discussed here on pinside
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-trying-to-drop-a-bombshell-new-patent-application-for-color-changing-leds

    #1094 2 years ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    I highly doubt it, but what are you inferring? Routing out, say a Stern Metallica playfield (minus inserts and art) and selling it?

    I am currently working on a pinball that uses the layout of a firepower pinball. The graphics, sounds, hardware, software etc will be my own design. So I was wondering if there would any issues when selling them.

    #1095 2 years ago
    Quoted from DDDwingmaster:

    I am currently working on a pinball that uses the layout of a firepower pinball. The graphics, sounds, hardware, software etc will be my own design

    I'm not a lawyer, but even if you could patent a layout, firepower is 35 years old. I don't know that it would fall under trademark either. Most of the things that planetary pinball defends it's IP over is art and sound, which fall under copywright which is life of author plus 70 years:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain

    #1096 2 years ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    I'm not a lawyer, but even if you could patent a layout, firepower is 35 years old. I don't know that it would fall under trademark either. Most of the things that planetary pinball defends it's IP over is art and sound, which fall under copywright which is life of author plus 70 years:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain

    That won't stop rick from sending you an angry PM.

    #1097 2 years ago
    Quoted from lordloss:

    That won't stop rick from sending you an angry PM

    True.. Better add 2 extra posts, and don't mention firepower again.

    #1098 2 years ago

    Bonnevil69's metal work is amazing. His VUK thread build is still my favorite thread as far as pinball construction goes. I hope he's bringing his game to Expo again so I can finally see it in person.

    Anyway. I've hand cut a couple of playfields now and I want to CAD up a version and get it CNC'd, but there are no widebody lower thirds over on the pinball makers site.

    Anyone who is really good at CAD able to help me (and everyone else who wants to do a widebody) out?

    #1099 2 years ago
    Quoted from JackB:

    Bonnevil69's metal work is amazing. His VUK thread build is still my favorite thread as far as pinball construction goes. I hope he's bringing his game to Expo again so I can finally see it in person.
    Anyway. I've hand cut a couple of playfields now and I want to CAD up a version and get it CNC'd, but there are no widebody lower thirds over on the pinball makers site.
    Anyone who is really good at CAD able to help me (and everyone else who wants to do a widebody) out?

    do you have a link to Bonnevil69's thread? curious

    also I haven't done a wide body playfield but you should be able to use most of the geometry but a matter of shuffling some components over to one side or the other and add a pop or extra in lane to the flipper to one of the sides. So you should be able to use those templates but you will need factor 1-2 custom cut inlane guides.

    #1100 2 years ago

    I'm not a patent expert but there is a distinction with patents that many people aren't aware of. There exists an item called a "Design Patent" which is not the same as the "Patent" we typically discuss in engineering, despite the term 'design' being in the name.

    A "Design Patent" actually does not patent the function or utility of an object, rather the appearance and form of the object (the Industrial Design of the object). Likewise a typical 'engineering' patent patents a process, mechanism, or formula in terms of function and utility with much less regard for appearance. In another way of thinking about it, Design Patents more closely protect a "copyright" of a physical object appearance.

    IIRC, the Samsung vs cellphone Apple phone lawsuit revolved around these Design Patents - it was primarily over the overall appearance and features of the physical device, not the cellphone tech behind it.

    I would surmise that to possibly enforce a playfield layout infringement you would need a Design Patent on the appearance of the layout. The overall layout or appearance of the shots on a whitewood would probably not be 'engineering' patentable imo. Some unique shots or feature might be if they drastically change or add something to the game, but I think the overall appearance and flow would (could have?) probably be a candidate for a design patent; but even at that - how much do I need to move a pop bumper to generate a completely new layout?

    Also I would be willing to bet there isn't a single enforceable patent of any kind on the overall layout of shots on a pinball machine, maybe on individual ideas or features, but not the layout as a whole.

    My 2 cents (probably wrong)

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