(Topic ID: 262812)

Let's P-Roc this (Haunted) House. My 'Magnum Opus' has begun.

By HHaase

1 year ago


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  • Latest reply 6 months ago by HHaase
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#51 1 year ago

Most flippers of any game 70s/after?

#52 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Most flippers of any game 70s/after?

Most that I'm aware of. Also most coils that I'm aware of. I'm just about to hit 400 lines of code, and all I've really done so far is define coils and switches, with very little else. A LOT of annotation though, to keep it all semi-organized.

If you count flipper coils as two coils each, I've defined 37 coils so far in this game, which I think is accurate for how it was originally done since there were no flashers originally. That means I'll need 3 driver boards for the coils, which leaves me 11 un-used circuits I can use for flashers or other things.

I'm also at 62 switches, assuming I keep all the 10pt switches as individuals, and keep the under-playfield tilt. That's 4 switch boards, and leaves me an extra two switches to add in.

#53 1 year ago

You can't do a setup where you just define the flipper relay and let the switches do what they do? Or are you doing it so you can use low voltage contacts on the flippers in a fliptronic-type setup?

That's a lot of coils just for flippers!

#54 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

You can't do a setup where you just define the flipper relay and let the switches do what they do? Or are you doing it so you can use low voltage contacts on the flippers in a fliptronic-type setup?
That's a lot of coils just for flippers!

If I wanted to, I could probably just toss a pair of relay on there and not have any CPU control of the flippers, which is how it originally was. Just one relay to energize them all, let the EOS switches do their thing, and away we go.

I'm making this un-necessarily complex on purpose, and doing it this way gives me a huge amount of abilities that wouldn't be there otherwise. I can individually adjust the flipper strength via the software, activate/deactivate flippers based on any criteria I can think of, and I can make the flippers flip whenever I want as part of a light/mode show. Oh, and the EOS switches will be removed actually for this style of control.

-Hans

#55 1 year ago

I think Hobbit may be a contender for most coils. Two coils per drop target! HH is definitely in its own league though..

Why put all the 10 put switches separately? Gottlieb put them in parallel originally, seems like it could potentially save you a board

#56 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I think Hobbit may be a contender for most coils. Two coils per drop target! HH is definitely in its own league though..
Why put all the 10 put switches separately? Gottlieb put them in parallel originally, seems like it could potentially save you a board

They also only did a 10pt score for Gottlieb. I've got a few ideas for doing different things based on the location you hit the target.

-Hans

#57 1 year ago

Completely mpu controlled flippers? I would be concerned about lag in that setup.

#58 1 year ago
Quoted from uncivil_engineer:

Completely mpu controlled flippers? I would be concerned about lag in that setup.

Most flippers have been MPU controlled since the 90s. WPC had about 4ms lag; apparently not noticeable.

-3
#59 1 year ago

Up until fliptonics, all Bally/Williams flippers were controlled through a relay. Even post relay, there was very little programming overhead in the WPC system.

The reason I would be worried about controlling flippers through a Proc system is because of all the overhead involved in that system. This is what I mean:

The flipper button is pressed, the signal goes to the Proc, the signal is then passed to the computer via USB, the signal is then interpreted by the operating system and the windows controller passes it to the program running your software. Just about all the software out there is script based and acting as an interpreter, this means this there are more than likely another layer or two of code to get through before the code decides it needs to energize a coil. That request then has to go back through the program, through the windows server and back to the usb bus to get back to the Proc.

A fast computer with very little overhead could make this work, or all this could possibly add up to unacceptable lag at the flippers. If it were my project, I would build a test rig and try it out before I commit to using it on the final machine.

#60 1 year ago
Quoted from uncivil_engineer:

Up until fliptonics, all Bally/Williams flippers were controlled through a relay. Even post relay, there was very little programming overhead in the WPC system.
The reason I would be worried about controlling flippers through a Proc system is because of all the overhead involved in that system. This is what I mean:
The flipper button is pressed, the signal goes to the Proc, the signal is then passed to the computer via USB, the signal is then interpreted by the operating system and the windows controller passes it to the program running your software. Just about all the software out there is script based and acting as an interpreter, this means this there are more than likely another layer or two of code to get through before the code decides it needs to energize a coil. That request then has to go back through the program, through the windows server and back to the usb bus to get back to the Proc.
A fast computer with very little overhead could make this work, or all this could possibly add up to unacceptable lag at the flippers. If it were my project, I would build a test rig and try it out before I commit to using it on the final machine.

Meanwhile, all modern games are running a full linux system and are fine. Also every other PROC homebrew project out there also has software flippers, again with no complaints. Even with a few layers of python scripting thrown in, it's pretty hard for an if statement to take multiple milliseconds

#61 1 year ago

I have absolutely no worry at all about flipper delay with this method. This system is the standard and recommended method for MPF/P-Roc design, and as far as I know all the Multi-Morphic and Spooky machines are doing it the way I'm handling it, except they use Skeleton instead of MPF for programming. I'm using MPF because it's supposed to be easier to program, though not quite as powerful for some things. I need the easier version. End result though is the same method of flipper control.

Though CPU controlled is a bit of a misnomer, since P-Roc and Mission Pinball handle certain fast-reaction devices differently than normal coils, and for just the reasons you guys are concerned. MPF has something called auto-fire devices, and they get handed directly by the P-Roc control board itself as part of a separate control system. This way it cuts out that entire loop of processing that could induce lag. This method gives slings, flippers, and pop bumpers extremely fast reaction times, and after they're activated the P-Roc board sends a signal to MPF for scoring/rules purposes. But the actual coil activation gets absolute priority on these auto-fire devices. Not terribly unlike a firmware managed version of the old Williams 'Special Solenoids',

-Hans

#62 1 year ago

The PROC driver boards don't actually have inputs on them though, right? So the signal still has to go through the input board, to the PROC driver on the computer, and back out at least?

#63 1 year ago
Quoted from uncivil_engineer:

The reason I would be worried about controlling flippers through a Proc system is because of all the overhead involved in that system. This is what I mean:
The flipper button is pressed, the signal goes to the Proc, the signal is then passed to the computer via USB, the signal is then interpreted by the operating system and the windows controller passes it to the program running your software. Just about all the software out there is script based and acting as an interpreter, this means this there are more than likely another layer or two of code to get through before the code decides it needs to energize a coil. That request then has to go back through the program, through the windows server and back to the usb bus to get back to the Proc.
A fast computer with very little overhead could make this work, or all this could possibly add up to unacceptable lag at the flippers. If it were my project, I would build a test rig and try it out before I commit to using it on the final machine.

Literally the first feature I designed into the P-ROC was hardware switch rules to eliminate the latencies you're describing. The P-ROC will issue coil function requests directly to the driver board in response to switch activations. Software on the host PC configures what the P-ROC should do for these rules, and then the P-ROC handles them in real-time with sub-millisecond latencies. It's all handled in hardware, so it's even faster response than all of the microcontroller based pinball control boards out there. Without these capabilities, I would have never built the P-ROC.

Quoted from zacaj:

The PROC driver boards don't actually have inputs on them though, right? So the signal still has to go through the input board, to the PROC driver on the computer, and back out at least?

The original P-ROC board is CPU board replacement for WPC and Stern Whitestar/SAM machines, and it has all of the switch inputs they do (direct and matrixed). The P3-ROC usually works with SW-16 boards to bring in switch inputs, and the SW-16 data is processed up to once per millisecond.

You definitely do not need to worry about hardware response latencies when using our boards.

HHaase : you're correct. Both MPF and SkeletonGame (and other frameworks with P-ROC support) use the same hardware switch rules. So as long as you're making use of those features, you're good.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

#64 1 year ago

Well, it looks like I was wrong, and the correct information came straight from the source.

#65 1 year ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

The P3-ROC usually works with SW-16 boards to bring in switch inputs, and the SW-16 data is processed up to once per millisecond.

So it's actually firing the flippers directly from the SW-16 to the driver, no need to go up to the computer over usb at all?

#66 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

So it's actually firing the flippers directly from the SW-16 to the driver

Almost. The P3-ROC is the controller and the master of the SW-16 and PD-16 busses.

Quoted from zacaj:

no need to go up to the computer over usb at all?

That's right.

A pinball machine that tries to do real-time control over the USB bus very likely has a real-time OS or linux with a customized kernel and USB driver. We didn't want to force users to go that route; so the real-time functions stay in the hardware.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

#67 1 year ago
Quoted from uncivil_engineer:

Well, it looks like I was wrong, and the correct information came straight from the source.

No worries. You had a very valid concern, and I seriously don't mind if people ask questions about how and why I'm doing things. I get inspiration all the time from that, and it's taken me in some oddball directions for sure.

Hell, this whole project started because I jumped on a good deal for a playfield, and somebody said it might be easier to do a P-Roc than to source the rest of a machine. I don't think this is the easier route by any means but I'm having a blast.

Once I get a check in from one of my vendors I finally get to start buying some of the main hardware.

-Hans

#68 1 year ago

Very excited to be following this and also glad that those playfields going to a worthy purpose. Haunted House is also the game that is the foundation for my love of pinball (although I grew up playing its digital reproduction in Microsoft's Pinball Arcade).

I've always wanted Haunted House to have a centaur-like speech. Tons of weird reverb, laughing, stuff like that. Have always wanted it to have a multi ball, but have always thought all rulesets that built them are were a little dissatisfying. I've always fantasized about balls being held up in the tunnels, and then when multi ball is activated, they all drop into the lower playfield...

#69 1 year ago

The P3-Roc main board, an SW-16 switch input board, and a PD-16 driver board have all been ordered This will give me the ability to start live-testing some hardware soon. I can only afford so much stuff at a time for this project and that's about it for the current budget. Still a huge pile of stuff to buy.

Another thing I have to factor in is the sheer volume of installation and wiring, and there's only so much work that I can do at any given time. So this will force me to pace myself. I'll only be ordering the boards I feel I'm ready to integrate into the system and this will be enough for now. I know most people do the flippers first, but I'm actually going to work on playfield switches and coils initially.

I'm still undecided on what I'm going to use for a lighting controller, partly because I'm not quite sure on the limitations in the PD-LED when it comes to serial RGB LED's. I haven't done much research on that part of things yet. A bit down the road, I'm still figuring out switches and solenoids.

-Hans

#70 1 year ago

I'm continuing to define things in the config file for switches and coils. I've defined all of the ball devices and autofire devices so far, I think. The ball devices are anything where a ball stops, and then a coil activates to kick it back out. So this means the outhole, vertical upkick's, kickout holes, things like that. Autofire devices are the super-quick-don't-be-laggy stuff, such as pop bumpers, slingshots, and kick targets. Flippers were already done and are their own thing.

I've got to say, the Mission Pinball tutorial is f'n fantastically well written. It's super easy to follow along if you've got a background in repair/restoration these machines. This project would be extremely difficult to impossible without it. But it's really starting to feel like I might be able to pull this off. I've been in a zen frame of mind when I'm doing the code work, very therapeutic.

One thing I can say, which isn't really covered in the MPF tutorial, is that a well defined structure and copious annotations in your code will make or break you. I think I have more notes in the code than actual code right now, but it makes it super easy to navigate. I'm also a big fan of Notepad ++ for this kind of work since it can handle all the hierarchy and autocomplete work for you. Huge time savers.

-Hans

#71 1 year ago

I spent some of today trolling for cheap PC's locally and on various internet sites. I ended up ordering a refurbished mini-ITX based system from e-bay. These are the dinky little office PC's in the tiny form factor, but still big enough that it uses a standard power supply (SFX format). I'll be able to pull all the guts out of the case and mount it on the backbox proxy that I'll be using for the short term. If the power supply isn't beefy enough I can always move to an ATX format with more available 5v and 12v power. Trying to keep reasonably small and inexpensive.

-Hans

#72 1 year ago

As an electronics manufacturing engineer by trade, I give Multimorpic my stamp of approval. These boards are obviously designed by somebody that understands DFM and DFS. (Design for manufacture, and design for service). Thumbs up!

Cute little things too! I made some standoffs for the SW-16 boards and mounted this first one on the upper playfield, then wired in all the upper playfield switches. I was just going over the datasheet, so please ignore the fact I need to move some pin locations in the molex connectors. Glad I checked too, as I didn't initially realize there was a 12v power output to use for optos. That could have been bad.

Edit: Well, poop. Board can't go in this location. Doesn't fit when installing the upper playfield onto the main. I'll have to find a new spot.

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#73 1 year ago

Ok, all better. Found a good location for that first SW-16. Probably better in the long run for me anyway, as I needed to tie a few main playfield switches into this one anyway. This location gave me a clean run for a couple of the trough and standup/kick target switches. I'll need to put another connector in there soon to enable removing the upper playfield, but that's easy stuff. Also, now that I have these switches physically wired, I've got the actual switch numbers into the MPF config file.

Once that little PC arrives on Monday I can start doing a temporary mounting board for the control PC and the main P3-Roc board plus driver boards. It'll be a big step actually getting live switch registers to show up even if they don't do anything yet.

-Hans

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#74 1 year ago

You guys like my temporary backbox? My control PC will be here Monday, and I need to start working integrating the first few boards. So I used a 2x4 and sheet of scrap plywood to get things mounted with close enough dimensions to a real backbox. So now I can also start planning the actual board layout and wiring. It also looks like the hole spacing on all the switch and driver boards is the same. So the 3D model I did for the SW-16 standoffs will work for all of the SW-16, PD-16, and maybe the PD-LED, without having to constantly design new ones. I did have to make a new 3D model for the main P3-Roc control board, but that was easy enough.

For the serial wiring, I've got the perfect stuff too. 22awg multi-conductor wire. The red and black are wrapped in a foil shield, with a separate un-insulated ground. I've got a good sized spool of the stuff at home, plus I think I have 15,000ft or so up at Dads farm on a pallet. More connector housings are on the way as well to let me start wiring things.

-Hans
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#75 1 year ago

Some days you just want to kick yourself. I've been digging around trying to figure out what I'll be doing for the solenoid voltage, looking at various 48v power supplies, and doing some research on the topic. Then it just hit me this morning.... I have all the cabinet wiring and components still inside the cabinets. I already have the coil voltages taken care of via the original transformers, both 38v and 24v! So I can do high power and low power as needed, it'll definitely be beefy enough, I don't have to spend any money on this section, and it's already installed and wired up. Oh Happy Day!

Also, I got tracking info that the computer was also delivered today. So I get to have some fun with that later too. That and I ordered the three remaining SW-16 switch boards that I needed. I've been having a bad week, so I decided to treat-my-self today.

-Hans

#76 1 year ago

Note that the 38V is actually just the 24V with a big capacitor on it. Works out well though to give the bumpers extra juice

Might want to check if both transformers are needed (iirc, there's two?). Might be able to sell one

#77 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Note that the 38V is actually just the 24V with a big capacitor on it. Works out well though to give the bumpers extra juice
Might want to check if both transformers are needed (iirc, there's two?). Might be able to sell one

Correct, there are two and I only need one of them. Since it's all unregulated voltage it's really only 'somewhere' near the listed values anyway. If I need to I can always play with the input taps a bit to raise or lower the actual voltage. Though I won't make any tweaks like that any time soon, since the coils and transformer voltages are already pretty much matched correctly.

I originally planned on selling all the transformers and cabinet wiring, but I'm glad I hadn't gotten around to pulling anything yet. Turns out at least some of it needs to stay.

-Hans

#78 1 year ago

Well, crap, that little PC arrived today D.O.A. That's quite annoying. Time for plan-B, which I haven't deciphered yet what that will be.

-Hans

#79 1 year ago

Good News! I've got a replacement motherboard on the way for that little PC at no charge. Hopefully this one works. I also scored a free monitor at work today.

But I'm not sitting around waiting, I stripped all the cabinet wiring out yesterday and started building the AC power circuit today. I had some odd colored 16awg stranded wire and used that for basically all the AC wiring. I'll go back and replace it at some point with more code/UL compliant colors, but it'll do for now, there isn't much of it. It's also larger than the 18awg wall cord so I think the gauge is more than plenty. Plenty of re-arranging of the few factory components I decided to keep and I have my solenoid voltage sorted out too. Once I get a better idea of the final configuration I'll definitely be adding some fuses into this. I just don't know how many I'll be needing yet.

Should probably start a schematic too at some point.

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#80 1 year ago
Quoted from HHaase:

Should probably start a schematic too at some point.

Do you have any idea what software is good for doing that, when you're talking a whole machine? I've got stuff for circuit boards, but haven't been able to find anything good for power/playfield wiring

#81 1 year ago

Software?

Is it too nerdy to say I want to free-hand it all? My other monitor is looking at old-school templates on amazon right now.

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#82 1 year ago

First set of custom boards for this build have arrived. The longer strip is for the 4 standup inserts on the upper playfield. The circular one is the pop bumpers, and the oddball one is for any of the larger single inserts. Other things going on, but I'll probably order the LED's for them in the next couple of days.

The big push right now is around getting the PC running for the machine itself. Replacement motherboard arrived today and is working just fine, so MPF is installing over on the other side of the room as we speak. Then I'll mount it all on the backboard and get that first SW-16 integrated.

I'm also working on a big shopping list for various wiring and connectors, as the needs are going to increase pretty quickly once I start getting additional boards installed and integrating them all into the software.

-Hans

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#83 1 year ago

PC is mostly mounted now, with a mount for the power supply currently printing. Haven’t figured out the monitor yet. Annoying amount of little crap to do for getting this up and running, mostly windows related. And I’ll get to do it all again eventually when I get a better PC installed. I couldn't even tell you how many layers of windows updates have pushed through so far. But you get a cheap PC and that's what happens.

But it’s pretty close to having MPF running for me now live, instead of virtual, which is awesome. Last attempt actually ran with the P3-Roc board. Just waiting on this batch of updates and I'll connect the SW-16 and see what happens.

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#84 1 year ago

We
Have
Interface!

Machine computer is successfully interfaced with the P3-Roc controller, along with one each SW-16 and PD-16. It compiles, runs, and registers switch conditions via the PC. And, yes, I have a stuck pop bumper switch. I haven't seen tracking info yet on the other three SW-16's that are on the way, but I'm looking forward to getting them installed as well.

Little pieces each day but damn this was a milestone that I'm happy with.

-Hans

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#85 1 year ago

Is it possible with this system I'm not even sure what the limitations are but have you thought about making this a convertible cabinet? After this build a Black Hole or Sprit to pop in?

#86 1 year ago
Quoted from 20eyes:

Is it possible with this system I'm not even sure what the limitations are but have you thought about making this a convertible cabinet? After this build a Black Hole or Sprit to pop in?

I won't say it can't be done, in fact it probably won't be too hard to swap back and forth if things are planned out correctly. Though if I were to do those games as well, which as the moment it's too early to say what I'll do next, I'd prefer to do dedicated cabinets. The artwork is just too good in this era of System 80's to do a generic cabinet or mis-match.

-Hans

#87 1 year ago

I'm waiting on wiring and boards to do the rest of the playfield switch installations. So I'm at a standstill on being ability to work on programming. I also cant' even start the solenoid wiring without the wire. That doesn't mean I'm without things to do. It's time to handle the grounding in the cabinet for safety and board protection purposes.

I had considered doing ground braid just like, well, every other manufacturer did... but I am working on a Gottlieb machine. So I wanted to keep as much of the Gottlieb personality as I can when the opportunity presents itself. I spent this morning carefully pulling the grounding wire system out of the cabinet harness and re-installing into the cabinet. Because the original power wiring was such an over-complicated nightmare I have plenty of grounding capacity coming from that original board. So far I've only tied in the rear half of the main cabinet. I do have wiring running up toward the coin door, and also to the head box, but they aren't connected yet. I'm making copious use of the insane number of wiring clamps that came in this machine in order to keep it all clean and organized.

Since I'm going with controlled flippers it means most of my high voltage no longer needs to run to the front of the cabinet. All that was left needing the 25v/38v DC up front were the knocker and coin lockout coils. I see no need for a coin lockout coil, thus it's been removed. I also moved the knocker to the rear of the cabinet to simplify wiring and reduce high voltage exposure through the coin door.

At some point I do need to figure out how to include the AC power for the PC and monitor into the machine wiring. I don't want to just tap into the service outlet since that's always live. I want the ability to power on/off through the main switch. That's a problem for future Hans though. Right now it's time to stop working on my pinball hobby and get back to my pinball business, because I have orders to ship.

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#88 1 year ago
Quoted from HHaase:

At some point I do need to figure out how to include the AC power for the PC and monitor into the machine wiring. I don't want to just tap into the service outlet since that's always live. I want the ability to power on/off through the main switch. That's a problem for future Hans though. Right now it's time to stop working on my pinball hobby and get back to my pinball business, because I have orders to ship.

I've set mine up with a 4 outlet box, with some outlets live for service, some connected to the power switch, and also an extra switch to toggle the HV without killing the logic

#89 1 year ago

Not a bad idea. I'll probably just sort it all out later though. Right now I'm not 100% sure yet how many AC sockets I'm going to need. That will depend on what I end up doing for displays and that's a long way off still. Short term I'm just going to keep using the free and crappy monitor I have. Same reason I haven't even started working yet on a power distribution board for all the DC power. (Hmmmm, maybe do all that into one board with sufficient isolation.)

I did actually wire up another dozen switches in anticipation of the next SW-16 arriving. The connectors are just hanging there loose but the wire runs are done and waiting for a board. The upper playfield, and entire left side of the main playfield, are both done. Next up will be right right side of the main playfield.

-Hans

#90 1 year ago

Couple parts needs if anybody has. I need one round white stand up target. Also need 5 white Gottlieb drop targets, Plus springs, doesn’t matter what face the drops have. Old and yellowed is preferred to new.

#91 1 year ago
Quoted from HHaase:

Couple parts needs if anybody has. I need one round white stand up target. Also need 5 white Gottlieb drop targets, Plus springs, doesn’t matter what face the drops have. Old and yellowed is preferred to new.

Does the stand up target have to be gottlieb style? I have some williams targets and should have old gottlieb drop targets you can have.

#92 1 year ago

In this case I’d have to keep the gottlieb stand up. Brackets are different between the two and there’s already too many holes in that area. I have a williams mounted for the moment and it’s not located properly.

#93 1 year ago

With the latest batch of boards arrived from MultiMorphic, I've been happily wiring in switches. The entire main playfield set is completely wired now for all switch locations. I did remove the playfield tilt, as I don't feel it's needed. There is plenty of capacity to add more switches as needed, which is good because I can already find a few spots I want to add more. Most importantly to more reliably detect which playfield the ball is on. I'm not at that point yet but I will be in the not TOO far future.

With a full playfield of switches, including the all-important outhole, I started working on the 'Base' mode tonight, which is the generic "game is playing but nothing special going on yet" mode. So I started adding in scoring to the mode and I have the upper playfield pretty much sorted. Next step is the main playfield. Note that this is just a plain situation where hitting targets gives you points. I don't have any lit shots, bank completions, or anything like that worked in yet. Nor will I for a bit as there's far too much to do in the base mode still for switches. This makes 3 of the 5 SW-16 switchboards wired in and integrated. I still have one for the lower playfield to install, and another for the cabinet that I have to purchase yet.

Friday I should be getting my next order of wire. This is the heavier gauge wire I need for the solenoids so that I can start wiring those in as well. I'll get about 2/3 of the main playfield solenoids taken care of with the existing driver board I already have. I still need two more of those, one to finish up the regular playfield stuff, and another for the flippers.

There are some frustrating moments here and there, but hot damn I'm enjoying this. Every couple days is another big milestone and I really feel a sense of progress with this project. Definitely hitting a layer of calm with this game.

-Hans

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#94 1 year ago

Today I finished up all of the playfield switch locations. So all three playfields have full switches registering. I still need ONE MORE of the SW-16 switch boards for the cabinet switches but at the moment it really won't help me much as there's really no point in attaching the flipper buttons or any of that. Another week or so I'll probably be ordering that and maybe the other two driver boards.

Speaking of driver boards, I also started wiring up some of my first solenoids tonight. Just the wiring, I haven't connected them to the driver board yet, I'm tired and am ready to put it down for the night. I also verified my solenoid voltage, and I'm getting a steady 28v DC coming out of the solenoid rectifier. So tomorrow, if I have the time, I'll try getting some solenoids connected and firing. I'll be able to get all of the main and upper playfields onto a single driver board, plus the knocker. 2nd one will hand the flippers on the main playfield. Third one will take care of the lower playfield solenoids and flippers.

I'm quickly nearing the point I have to sort out power distribution for switches and solenoids. during the week I should have a good enough idea on what I'll be needing, so that I can start sketching out some kind of system. I'll put any lamp wiring onto a completely separate system I think that way I have RF separation.

-Hans

#95 1 year ago

I was trying to get the coils working but it didn't go well. Something strange is going on and I do not like it. Any time the cabinet plug is connected to a wall socket, I see a very dim LED on the driver board power input indicator. Even if the cabinet power switch is turned off, and all the P-Roc/PC stuff is disconnected/unplugged. There is a hint of voltage coming through the transformer at all times and I don't know why.

When I do turn on the cabinet power switch to properly energize the transformer, I get all the coils activating until the fuse immediately pops.

I just don't know where I'm going wrong on this. I'm looking over the original Gottlieb schematic, and I have it all wired the same, and verified the actual wiring in the machine. Maybe I got something wrong with the rectifiers? Maybe I should ditch the whole transformer and go with a 48v power supply?

schematic (resized).jpg
#96 1 year ago
Quoted from HHaase:

Maybe I should ditch the whole transformer and go with a 48v power suppl

Isn't that going to cause big issues? All the coils are 24V, not 48v, I don't think you'll be able to dial it back that much in software...

Have you tried disconnecting the grond distribution board from the line in stuff (everything the transformer and before), to rule that out?

Seems like something must be wrong with your driver board if it's giving the coils a path to ground

Your schematic looks right to me, same thing I'm doing on my game (except I'm not using PROC, so..). I don't know what actually goes on inside their board since they don't provide schematics, so it's hard to say what could be happening to cause the LED to light

#97 1 year ago

Yep, doubling the voltage will really juice things up, which is why I was/am trying to avoid doing that route. I don't suspect the driver board though as there's no way I should be seeing voltage coming out of a transformer with one leg disconnected.

Just tried removing the service outlet, no change.
Disconnected all of the grounds, except the ground from the main cord going into the line filter, still getting 5v coming through.
Right now all I've got on the AC circuit is the line filter, transformer, switch, and rectifier.

I wonder if I may be chasing multiple problems though? I get about 10 MOhms resistance through the switch when it's 'off'. So maybe it's bleeding a bit of voltage through. I already know I want a new power cord, maybe I'll just do the switch and line filter too, to make sure I'm not dealing with old problems.

-Hans

#98 1 year ago

New switch and new cord.....and I was still getting 6v at the rectifier with the power switch off, and that was with no line filter installed. So I really dug into the pre-transformer wiring and it definitely didn't match my schematic. So I connected it up properly, minus the line filter, and things appear to be working properly now from a DC power standpoint.

Unfortunately, that didn't solve my issue at all. I rigged up a remote fuse (ran out of the correct size), and still powers on all the coils as soon as the driver board gets DC power. I'm wondering if maybe I have something wrong with the coil for the trap-door. It's a dual wind and I could potentially have something wired wrong on that too.

-Hans

#99 1 year ago

Update:

It's not the dual-wind coil. I removed that from the circuit and still getting the blowing fuse.

-Hans

#100 1 year ago

Sweeeet! I got coils!!!!!!

Have to make sure the coil ground is connected to the logic ground or you get the exact problem that I had. All fixed and coils are now working for the first time.

I’m pretty stoked.

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