(Topic ID: 297342)

Left flipper weak on Gottlieb Stargate (System 3)

By mystman12

2 years ago


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  • 18 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by phishrace
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 2 years ago

I've had an issue with the left flipper on my Stargate being weak for a few years now, and I've even created a thread about the issue before, but now it's gotten even worse, to the point where I can't make the right ramp shot at all. I've tried everything I know how to do and at this point the issue seems to be beyond what I know how to fix. In an attempt to fix the problem I have

Rebuilt the flipper
Replaced the coil
Replaced the flipper button switch
Made sure solder joints on the coil are solid
Done grounding mods
Made sure the 120V jumper is being used

The flipper is still too weak to make it up the ramp, it doesn't even get close. It used to be that right ramp shots were fairly easy for the first 15 to 30 minutes of play, and the flipper would get weak over time, but now it's just super weak to begin with. The other two flippers seem to have plenty of strength, especially after rebuilding them (The left ramp can be made easily and the ball goes up it very fast) but the left flipper just doesn't feel all that snappy and right ramp shots usually don't even make it to the top of the ramp.

I'm convinced at this point that the issue is electrical, but I wouldn't know where to begin looking to diagnose an issue like that. I'd like to measure the energy going to the flipper coil to confirm, but I'd need some guidance on how to do that with my multimeter. If anyone has any advice, please let me know! I'm not going to stop trying to fix this until the issue is fixed once and for all.

#2 2 years ago

Hook a multimeter up to the coil.

Use it to continuously measure the voltage during a game and see if the voltage declines over time as the flipper power appears to decrease.

That would likely confirm or rule out a voltage change as a possible cause.

#3 2 years ago

Checked+cleaned the contacts on the Q relay? Could also be a bad pin in the connectors maybe...

Could try swapping the 50v and/or ground wires between the left and right flippers, see if anything changes

#4 2 years ago

Funny because I ran into the same issue after rebuilding flippers on the same game.

You say you rebuilt the flippers. Did you replace the EOS switch and capacitor? Either way, check the resistance across the closed EOS switch. Should be less than .5 ohms (half an ohm). If more than that, file or sand the contacts to get it lower. New EOS switch contacts often have oxidation on them and all the power for flippers goes through those contacts. If you replaced the EOS wires, make sure the new wires are 18 gauge. Flippers use a lot of power and need big wires to move that power.

Same goes for flipper button switches. Clean those contacts too. 400 grit sandpaper works fine on new high power contacts.

Once you're sure the contacts are good, make sure the EOS switch isn't opening too early. Should be 1/8" gap at the most when flipper is all the way up. If it opens too early, you won't make the right ramp.

Lastly, check your pitch. Should be 6.5 degrees tops.

4 months later
#5 2 years ago

Sorry for not getting back to this sooner. Got busy/stressed with work and mostly forgot about this. I've finally taken the time to look into things and here's what I've found.

Quoted from ForceFlow:

Hook a multimeter up to the coil.
Use it to continuously measure the voltage during a game and see if the voltage declines over time as the flipper power appears to decrease.
That would likely confirm or rule out a voltage change as a possible cause.

Doing this (Red clip on flipper lug, black on ground, multimeter set to 200 V DC) the flipper starts at a little above 70 VDC and then slowly climbs to above 90 after a few minutes. The highest I saw it get was about 98.

The one interesting thing I've found though is that if I test the lug connected to the silver banded end of the diode, and flip, the voltage spikes, sometimes nearly to to 200. The right flipper does *not* do this. Not sure which is normal behavior but it seems I've finally found an inconsistency between the two flippers.

Quoted from zacaj:

Checked+cleaned the contacts on the Q relay? Could also be a bad pin in the connectors maybe...
Could try swapping the 50v and/or ground wires between the left and right flippers, see if anything changes

I've tried cleaning the Q relay, no difference (I used the business card method. Should I used something to grind it a bit?). How would I be able to tell if a connector pin is bad or not? How would I figure out which wires are ground for each flipper? I'd be interested in swapping them to see what happens.

Quoted from phishrace:

Funny because I ran into the same issue after rebuilding flippers on the same game.
You say you rebuilt the flippers. Did you replace the EOS switch and capacitor? Either way, check the resistance across the closed EOS switch. Should be less than .5 ohms (half an ohm). If more than that, file or sand the contacts to get it lower. New EOS switch contacts often have oxidation on them and all the power for flippers goes through those contacts. If you replaced the EOS wires, make sure the new wires are 18 gauge. Flippers use a lot of power and need big wires to move that power.
Same goes for flipper button switches. Clean those contacts too. 400 grit sandpaper works fine on new high power contacts.
Once you're sure the contacts are good, make sure the EOS switch isn't opening too early. Should be 1/8" gap at the most when flipper is all the way up. If it opens too early, you won't make the right ramp.
Lastly, check your pitch. Should be 6.5 degrees tops.

Yep, I replaced both the EOS and capacitor. EOS is adjusted correctly. I also replaced the flipper button switches entirely. Game is pitched at 6 degrees.

Final note, while testing today, at one point the GI was off and would flash on whenever a solenoid fired. I power cycled the machine and it went back to normal. Not sure what that was about but figure I should document everything at this point.

#6 2 years ago
Quoted from mystman12:

I used the business card method. Should I used something to grind it a bit?

Q relay is high voltage so a file or even some fine sandpaper is fine

Quoted from mystman12:

How would I be able to tell if a connector pin is bad or not?

Visual check, or maybe see if the resistance between the two sides is high (over 1 ohm)

Quoted from mystman12:

How would I figure out which wires are ground for each flipper? I'd be interested in swapping them to see what happens.

The one opposite the banded side of the diode is ground, the one on the banded side is the 50v. Should be the only two wires going to the flipper coil (besides the ones for the EOS). Swap the banded or non banded side between the two flippers, see if the problem follows. If it does, you've got an electrical problem somewhere in the wiring/cab/etc. If it stays with the same flipper, it's a problem within the flipper mech itself

#7 2 years ago

Alright, I swapped the ground wires (Both on each lug) and now the right flipper button flips the left and vice versa, so I assume I did it correctly. The switch matrix is also messed up now but hopefully that's just to do with the swapped ground wires and will return to normal once I switch them back.

Unfortunately even with the swapped ground wires the left flipper is still far too weak to make the ramp shot. Would it also be worth trying to swap the other wires (The banded side wires) to see if that makes any difference, or no? If not, I suppose that rules out an issue specific to the power to the left flipper, but it doesn't rule out the possibility that *none* of the solenoids are being powered properly. If all, or even just the flippers, aren't quite getting enough juice the left flipper is the only one you'd really notice it on. The right flipper doesn't have any ramp shots, and the upper right flipper ramp isn't as steep or as far from it as the left flipper ramp. Currently on my game the upper ramp is makeable, but only if shot just right. Otherwise it tends to come back down quite often. I assumed this is just the way Stargate plays, but maybe not.

I also tried using a switch contact file to clean the Q relay, no difference.

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

Check the resistance across the closed EOS switch. Should be less than .5 ohms (half an ohm). If more than that, file or sand the contacts to get it lower.

Power off when testing.

#9 2 years ago

Yesterday I found that the center bridge rectifier had a bunch of wires soldered onto one of the lugs instead of connected with a brass connector. I removed the old solder and redid it with fresh solder, no difference. Not that those wires looked related to the flippers or solenoids in any way from what I could make out from the schematics, but figured it was worth trying in case the solder was cold. I also tried reseating all the other brass connectors there, again no difference.

I'm still wondering, is the VDC I measured off the flippers correct? Could someone with a Stargate take a measurement just so I could confirm if mine is the same or not? I'd really appreciate it.

Quoted from phishrace:

Power off when testing.

EOS fall under .5 ohms like you said it should. It's basically brand new so it shouldn't have any resistance issues.

#10 2 years ago
Quoted from mystman12:

It's basically brand new so it shouldn't have any resistance issues.

Virtually every brand new high power normally closed EOS has resistance issues. The contacts are made with metals that encourage corrosion. The corrosion isn't visible to the naked eye, but a meter will quickly show differently. I've had brand new switches register over 50 ohms of resistance. A light sanding usually gets you under 1 ohm. Are you sure you checked yours?

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

Virtually every brand new high power normally closed EOS has resistance issues. The contacts are made with metals that encourage corrosion. The corrosion isn't visible to the naked eye, but a meter will quickly show differently. I've had brand new switches register over 50 ohms of resistance. A light sanding usually gets you under 1 ohm. Are you sure you checked yours?

Looks good.

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#12 2 years ago

Here's a vid of actually trying to make the shot (The flippers are reversed because I still have the ground wires swapped): https://photos.app.goo.gl/JLNEsZyz2Kbe5J4K7

Today I tried swapping the 48V bridge rectifier with one of the others in case there was an issue with that, and I also tightened up the ground cables from when I did the ground mods, but neither thing made any improvement.

#13 2 years ago

It doesn't look like there is a mechanical issue, but something is robbing the power from the flipper. Personally I replaced my 25959 coils with 29876. Both ramps became much easier to hit and the left flipper stopped getting too weak to hit the right ramp after 30 minutes of play.

If you have eliminated everything else my suggestion would be to swap in new higher powered coils.

-1
#14 2 years ago
Quoted from frisbez:

It doesn't look like there is a mechanical issue, but something is robbing the power from the flipper. Personally I replaced my 25959 coils with 29876. Both ramps became much easier to hit and the left flipper stopped getting too weak to hit the right ramp after 30 minutes of play.
If you have eliminated everything else my suggestion would be to swap in new higher powered coils.

I've considered doing that, but I really want to get to the root of the issue, especially since it seems to be getting worse over time. Using a more powerful coil may fix it for now, but then I might end up in the same situation in a few years.

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from mystman12:

I've considered doing that, but I really want to get to the root of the issue, especially since it seems to be getting worse over time. Using a more powerful coil may fix it for now, but then I might end up in the same situation in a few years.

What I'm suggesting is that I think the coil itself is the problem.

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from mystman12:

I'm still wondering, is the VDC I measured off the flippers correct?

It shouldn't be anywhere near 90 volts. Try another meter. Should stay around 65 volts. If it still goes up near 90, high voltage section needs repair.

Even with rebuilt flippers, the right ramp shot isn't easy. Especially from a cradle. Should be able to shoot the right ramp from a cradle, but not by much power-wise. Try replacing or swapping the caps across the EOS switches. I got one from PBR that wasn't right. You haven't mentioned if you checked to see if the EOS is opening too early. Do so if you haven't already. Pitch doesn't look too steep in the video, but verify you're at 6.5 degrees or less *between the flippers* with a digital level.

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

It shouldn't be anywhere near 90 volts. Try another meter. Should stay around 65 volts. If it still goes up near 90, high voltage section needs repair.

There's no way for the solenoid power to go bad in a way where you get even more voltage. Even if it did that'd just make the flippers stronger... You can't really trust these readings as being too high anyway since there's a filter cap on there and it isn't under load

#18 2 years ago

Good point. He asked more than once about the voltages and I knew 90 volts was too much. I checked mine because it didn't sound right. Bad meter, wrong settings or test points, but 90 volts should definitely not be happening for real. Right ramp would be easy money at 90 volts.

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