(Topic ID: 221416)

LEDs Dim Over Time?

By Aniraf

5 years ago


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  • 72 posts
  • 31 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by dnapac
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    There are 72 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 5 years ago

    I put a bunch of Comet Pinball warm white LEDs into the back box of my Scorpion and I have noticed that they have become very dim over time. I just replaced a handful of them, and I can clearly see the new ones are about 10x brighter than the original.

    Is this common with LED lighting in older machines? I’ve never experienced anything like this with LED lights.

    #3 5 years ago
    Quoted from Aniraf:

    I put a bunch of Comet Pinball warm white LEDs into the back box of my Scorpion and I have noticed that they have become very dim over time. I just replaced a handful of them, and I can clearly see the new ones are about 10x brighter than the original.
    Is this common with LED lighting in older machines? I’ve never experienced anything like this with LED lights.

    Absolutley Led output decreases over time. Manufacturers state that in their data sheets.
    One example http://www.lighting.philips.com/support/support/faqs/life-and-light-output/why-is-the-life-of-leds-measured-as-lumen-depreciation
    or this
    https://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/royer_lumenmaintenance_lightfair2014.pdf

    #4 5 years ago
    Quoted from Aniraf:

    I put a bunch of Comet Pinball warm white LEDs into the back box of my Scorpion and I have noticed that they have become very dim over time. I just replaced a handful of them, and I can clearly see the new ones are about 10x brighter than the original.
    Is this common with LED lighting in older machines? I’ve never experienced anything like this with LED lights.

    How long have you had the original LEDs and how long is the game on per day? LEDs light output degrades, but it takes a long time. For example, if we assume a reasonable spec of the LED around 50,000hrs to 70 percent (L70) then they are considered to be near end of life at the point in time that they are putting out 70 percent of their initial light output. If the LED was on 24 hrs a day that is about 5 years, if it's on 3 hrs a day that is over two decades.

    #5 5 years ago
    Quoted from Aniraf:

    I put a bunch of Comet Pinball warm white LEDs into the back box of my Scorpion and I have noticed that they have become very dim over time. I just replaced a handful of them, and I can clearly see the new ones are about 10x brighter than the original.
    Is this common with LED lighting in older machines? I’ve never experienced anything like this with LED lights.

    Likely loose in socket. Wiggle them and they'll become fully bright again. Tighten up the socket to stop that from happening again.

    #6 5 years ago
    Quoted from PinMonk:

    Likely loose in socket. Wiggle them and they'll become fully bright again. Tighten up the socket to stop that from happening again.

    He claims when he installs the replacement LEDs, they are 10X brighter than the LED being replaced.

    #7 5 years ago
    Quoted from Mike_J:

    He claims when he installs the replacement LEDs, they are 10X brighter than the LED being replaced.

    Is it possible that the LEDs are not exactly the same as the originals?....such as a design change or different part sent...or were these from the same original batch saved in storage? Different lens or plastic if the style has a clear or frosted cap?
    Another thing to verify....if these have been installed for some time are they dirty?

    #8 5 years ago

    Check the voltage at your sockets. The higher the voltage the quicker they dim out.

    #9 5 years ago

    Could be dust/debre build up on the lens. When I got my last pin the lights were significantly dim and they just needed a good cleaning, the dust was hard to see.

    #11 5 years ago

    The first ones Comet sold were low quality. They realized that and changed. Newer ones shouldn't do that.

    #12 5 years ago

    I tend to see this dimming more with the dual LED lamps vs. the dual SMDs. Surface Mount Diodes (SMD) are clearly better.

    #13 5 years ago

    LEDs will dim out eventually buy it should take a long, long time to happen. If an LED over driven to achieve max brightness and/or lower quality product it will dim out quickly.

    The surface mount chip LEDs available are much better than the older potted resin or other styles so I would stick to those. At comet the part number of those bulbs has SMD in the name.

    #14 5 years ago

    The order says “100-PACK-1LEDBA49SWWBTF *100 PACK* - SAVE- 1 LED 6.3V AC/DC WARM WHITE SUPERIOR LED DOMED "BULLET" BULB - Frosted - #44/#47 Bayonet - Warm White”. So I am not entirely sure?

    #16 5 years ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    How long have you had the original LEDs and how long is the game on per day? LEDs light output degrades, but it takes a long time. For example, if we assume a reasonable spec of the LED around 50,000hrs to 70 percent (L70) then they are considered to be near end of life at the point in time that they are putting out 70 percent of their initial light output. If the LED was on 24 hrs a day that is about 5 years, if it's on 3 hrs a day that is over two decades.

    The LEDs I referenced above have been in the machine for about 5 months. It runs 6 days a week for an average of 8 hours a day.

    #17 5 years ago
    Quoted from PinMonk:

    Likely loose in socket. Wiggle them and they'll become fully bright again. Tighten up the socket to stop that from happening again.

    Definitely not the sockets. Incandescent bulbs work great, and new LEDs of the same type are perfect. Removing one of the dim LEDs then moving it to another socket still results in a dim LED.

    #18 5 years ago
    Quoted from Mike_J:

    He claims when he installs the replacement LEDs, they are 10X brighter than the LED being replaced.

    This is true. I claim this .

    #19 5 years ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    Is it possible that the LEDs are not exactly the same as the originals?....such as a design change or different part sent...or were these from the same original batch saved in storage? Different lens or plastic if the style has a clear or frosted cap?
    Another thing to verify....if these have been installed for some time are they dirty?

    They are all from the same bag of 100 I purchased.

    #20 5 years ago
    Quoted from Mitch:

    Check the voltage at your sockets. The higher the voltage the quicker they dim out.

    I will meter the line at the first chance I get. I believe it is a 5v line. It is in the back box of a Scorpion.

    #21 5 years ago
    Quoted from Schamattack:

    Could be dust/debre build up on the lens. When I got my last pin the lights were significantly dim and they just needed a good cleaning, the dust was hard to see.

    It is not dust. Everything is really clean on this machine.

    #23 5 years ago
    Quoted from hailrazer:

    The first ones Comet sold were low quality. They realized that and changed. Newer ones shouldn't do that.

    These were ordered within the last year. My research on the forums indicated that Comet LEDs were pretty good overall.

    #24 5 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    LEDs will dim out eventually buy it should take a long, long time to happen. If an LED over driven to achieve max brightness and/or lower quality product it will dim out quickly.
    The surface mount chip LEDs available are much better than the older potted resin or other styles so I would stick to those. At comet the part number of those bulbs has SMD in the name.

    I’m wondering if I just got the wrong ones and this is something I could have avoided. I’m certainly going to look into this. Thanks.

    #25 5 years ago
    Quoted from Aniraf:

    Definitely not the sockets. Incandescent bulbs work great, and new LEDs of the same type are perfect. Removing one of the dim LEDs then moving it to another socket still results in a dim LED.

    Maybe it's the crappy earlier Comet LEDs someone else was talking about then...

    #26 5 years ago

    I had the same problem and Comet fixed it for me. They had a bad batch. Cant say enough about there customer service. Stick with the one smd for future orders.

    #27 5 years ago
    Quoted from Aniraf:

    The order says “100-PACK-1LEDBA49SWWBTF *100 PACK* - SAVE- 1 LED 6.3V AC/DC WARM WHITE SUPERIOR LED DOMED "BULLET" BULB - Frosted - #44/#47 Bayonet - Warm White”. So I am not entirely sure?

    Yep, those are the lesser LED bulbs, rather than the SMD bulbs.

    #28 5 years ago

    I’ve read a couple of things about people discovering the machine was running the wrong power, like a Canadian standard instead of US. How could I ensure mine is correct? I don’t see any little switch on it like a modern power supply.

    #29 5 years ago
    Quoted from Aniraf:

    I’ve read a couple of things about people discovering the machine was running the wrong power, like a Canadian standard instead of US. How could I ensure mine is correct? I don’t see any little switch on it like a modern power supply.

    Do you have a multimeter?

    #30 5 years ago
    Quoted from PinMonk:

    Do you have a multimeter?

    Yeah, what should I meter? Just the direct output from that little box the AC runs into?

    #31 5 years ago
    Quoted from Aniraf:

    Yeah, what should I meter? Just the direct output from that little box the AC runs into?

    I'd start by checking the leads on the light sockets in the backbox that have gone dim to see what your voltage is there. Set the multimeter to the V/voltage setting.

    #32 5 years ago
    Quoted from PinMonk:

    I'd start by checking the leads on the light sockets in the backbox that have gone dim to see what your voltage is there. Set the multimeter to the V/voltage setting.

    Which lights are dim, just the backbox only? What about Playfield GI and controlled lamps?
    Backbox GI is measured in AC volts for your meter setting.

    Quoted from Aniraf:

    I’ve read a couple of things about people discovering the machine was running the wrong power, like a Canadian standard instead of US. How could I ensure mine is correct? I don’t see any little switch on it like a modern power supply.

    That wouldn't matter because your transformer converts the input AC to the secondary voltage for lamp GI. If your transformer was not configured correctly for the mains voltage of your country, you'd have other problems.

    Most likely you installed inferior quality lamps in the first place. I've been installing Cointaker premium SMD LEDs for years and they are about as bright as installed on day one.

    #33 5 years ago

    Sounds like you just got a crappy batch of LEDs. I had this happen to me with Titan. I get all my LEDs now from either Pinball Bulbs, or Cointaker. It sucks that it happened to you.

    #34 5 years ago

    No they should last 10,000 hours at the same luminosity?

    #35 5 years ago

    The ones you purchased are an 'economy' LED. Spend a few extra bucks and pick up the SMD or dual SMD. You'll be very happy with them.

    #36 5 years ago
    Quoted from gmkalos:

    No they should last 10,000 hours at the same luminosity?

    not when you overdrive an economy bulb to achieve max brightness

    #37 5 years ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    Which lights are dim, just the backbox only? What about Playfield GI and controlled lamps?
    Backbox GI is measured in AC volts for your meter setting.

    That wouldn't matter because your transformer converts the input AC to the secondary voltage for lamp GI. If your transformer was not configured correctly for the mains voltage of your country, you'd have other problems.
    Most likely you installed inferior quality lamps in the first place. I've been installing Cointaker premium SMD LEDs for years and they are about as bright as installed on day one.

    My WCS came jumpered for 100V, it played 100%. I had some Titan economy LEDs in the GI that kept dying, I metered the socket and it read 8VAC. The Comet 1SMD's survived.

    #38 5 years ago

    it is well known the older type leds die out . I remember being amazed when i bought my ac dc premium with forever leds and one year later replacing about 15.

    #39 5 years ago
    Quoted from Aniraf:

    The order says “100-PACK-1LEDBA49SWWBTF *100 PACK* - SAVE- 1 LED 6.3V AC/DC WARM WHITE SUPERIOR LED DOMED "BULLET" BULB - Frosted - #44/#47 Bayonet - Warm White”. So I am not entirely sure?

    This is your problem. You bought the cheap LEDs. Only use smd bulbs.

    #40 5 years ago

    No need to check anything about your machine, the LED style bulbs you bought from us are a vastly inferior technology that don't last nearly as long. They should only be used in home use situations where you don't play your games often, and saving money is a priority. Long ago, these got demoted to our "Bargain Bulbs" section for that reason, and there are warnings on every product page.

    All bulbs will dim eventually, but the SMD (surface mounted diodes) style bulbs have been used on location continuously for years without any significant dimming.

    Struggling to figure out what to do about these bulbs. People won't stop buying them, and they work in low-use environments, but it comes with a lot of bad press and threads like this which probably do damage to the brand.

    #41 5 years ago
    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    Struggling to figure out what to do about these bulbs. People won't stop buying them, and they work in low-use environments, but it comes with a lot of bad press and threads like this which probably do damage to the brand.

    All you can do is make it clear on your site that they are inferior and also make it clear the SMD is a better quality choice. Your always going to have those people that prefer to save money so why not cater to both? Just be clear what they are and their expected and best use. I use your bulbs and haven't had any problems at all. Of course The first batch I bought was a learning experience and now I know what I like and what works better.

    #42 5 years ago
    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    No need to check anything about your machine, the LED style bulbs you bought from us are a vastly inferior technology that don't last nearly as long. They should only be used in home use situations where you don't play your games often, and saving money is a priority. Long ago, these got demoted to our "Bargain Bulbs" section for that reason, and there are warnings on every product page.
    All bulbs will dim eventually, but the SMD (surface mounted diodes) style bulbs have been used on location continuously for years without any significant dimming.
    Struggling to figure out what to do about these bulbs. People won't stop buying them, and they work in low-use environments, but it comes with a lot of bad press and threads like this which probably do damage to the brand.

    I didn’t realize this! In hind sight, I see a warning on the site. I should have noticed that. All of the color ones I ordered are still rocking. They are SMD.

    I’ll make sure I get the correct ones next time. Thanks everyone!

    #43 5 years ago

    Even in a home environment I've gotten a lot of dimming in mine. The natural white on the left has been in my Stars for about a year. I just replaced the one on the right. It's the same type bulb except in warm white. Voltage metered is 6.1v.
    I did read the warnings before purchasing, should have listened.

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    #44 5 years ago
    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    Struggling to figure out what to do about these bulbs. People won't stop buying them, and they work in low-use environments, but it comes with a lot of bad press and threads like this which probably do damage to the brand.

    You have to decide if you want to be Whole Foods or Walmart. Both can be successful, but the approaches are wildly different.

    #45 5 years ago

    Simply put in Bold Print : Guaranteed to Fade!

    Unfortunately, I was one of the early Guinea Pigs when Art was telling us it was our games and not the discrete resin LEDs that were the problem.

    #46 5 years ago

    Yes.. LED light output does degrade over time. Its well known in the sign trade where LED has become the dominant light source for backlit signs. If you have them on say 8hrs a day then expect them to drop back in under 3 months.
    Please note that the wording on life expectancy of any LED has been changed from 50,000hrs to UP TO 50,000hrs.. this is the best case scenario and dependent on the style of LED.
    Also, an LED warranty isn't quite what you would expect from any other product. LED is only considered faulty by the manufacturer if it is working UNDER 60% of its lumen output, so your cheap LED stick down strip can have 35% of the LEDs drop out and it is still considered a fully working product and it may well sit like that for 10,000...20,000hrs etc... looks like crap but still good according to the manufacturers.
    If you believed you bought a source of light that will never need replacing then you have to ask yourself why a Chinese manufacturer would sell you something that will ultimately put them out of business.
    50,000 hrs is laboratory conditions.. the only light source to consistently prove OVER 50,000hrs in the field is neon and cold cathode which have also been given the "Green tick" by UL as the greenest form of lighting due to its low power consumption, high lumen output and its ability to be recycled.
    OK.. so you are not going to put neon lamps in a pinball but you do need to look beyond the hype of LED and deal with the facts.

    #47 5 years ago
    Quoted from Retropin:

    Yes.. LED light output does degrade over time. .. so you are not going to put neon lamps in a pinball but you do need to look beyond the hype of LED and deal with the facts.

    In most cases, still offers many benefits over traditional lamps. Always remember, you get what you pay for, so don't cheap out on LEDs. I've had a few discount home LED replacement bulbs crap out in just weeks. Replaced those with a better brand.

    #48 5 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    not when you overdrive an economy bulb to achieve max brightness

    Wheeeeeeew, I thought he bought Non Ghosting or the Twins those cheep-o's are the Frodo of Comet's bulbs! lol

    #49 5 years ago
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    #50 5 years ago

    For the record ryanwanger sent me a credit for every one of these bulbs I’ve ever purchased. I think this is very nice, and I will certainly try the SMD LEDs.

    There are 72 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

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