LEDs give off/transfer less heat than Incandescents.
LEDs draw less power than Incandescents.
LEDs emit less uv than Incandescents.
(Topic ID: 111043)
The domed bulbs are similar in size to the incs. All of the heat must be dissipated, regardless of size. The larger size just allows more surface to dissipate the heat from.
Fargo, ND
Quoted from Baiter:The only apples to apples comparison is to center the temp sensor center on the filament/diode in all cases, seems from the pics you aren't always doing this. Also, I'm confused at the images... the pics list inc.jpg as attachment #2 but pic #2 is rendered with 75.6 degrees, maybe best to put the bulb text into the image as the forum is rendering them out of order from its listing.
The temp trading spot is the crosshair. In pic 2 it's just showing the 3 bulbs. The crosshair is not on any of the bulbs. It's trading the underside of the pf.
for shits and giggles i just put the same ablaze in the upper left multiplier value of pinbot. incandescent in the upper right. CT 2led in the lower right, and CT flex, with the flex head pointed at teh insert but no in the cavity in the lower left. Started a game glass off, manually advance the multiplier to 5x to get them all lit constantly. This is the 5 minute readings. overall pic first. reading the hottest spot of the inc lit inset is 79.2 degrees. reading the hottest spot of the flex 74.5 degrees, its actually hotter than the inc bulb on the insert. before anyone says these are not read over the inserts because the image is not aligned a flir has 2 imagers, a visible camera is mounted above the thermal imager. at short ranges this makes the images slightly offset. the game is still running will go for more pics.
18 minutes of runtime. The old, relatively dim, ablaze is clearly the winner in temp, but not brightness. its not above the background. The inc bulb is generating and passing heat as expected, hottest point on the insert 83.5 degrees. the 2 led dome is not doing bad at all, better than the inc as expected but much worse than the older led at 76.3 degrees. The flex on the other hand is much hotter than even the inc bulb at 86.7 degrees.
27 minutes of full on and running the bulbs under the inserts. I just shut off the game after these were taken, this is the last update.
84.7 degrees incandescent
78.1 degrees 2 led dome
88.2 degrees flex
hmm single simple led and its hotter than inc??? but wait that's impossible! Or maybe its time to realize LED while very good, can produce just as much heat as an inc bulb to you game. Actually there is a much larger hotspot on the flex, its putting much more heat into the insert than the inc even is.
Quoted from calvin12:They run cooler than inc, but as they get brighter, as people here use, they get hotter and the heat benefit, that is the only thing being referred to, diminishes.That is a fact, whether you want to admit it out not.
Good point. This I can agree with. Some of the really bright LEDs are many times brighter than an incandescent and will in fact pull almost as much power and therefore put out almost as much heat. So there is still a benefit, but it is smaller.
Underside pics, 1 low angle to show the position of the flex head. The others are fixed in place making the low angle irrelevant.
In my workshop, which is small, when I have a new game in here full of incandescent bulbs it really heats this place up over time. When I LED the game and let it sit as well doesn't provide any noticeable heat in here. Just basing this off experience and no scientific heat meter deals.
So cold in here right now with heater going I have Maverick on to provide a bit of heat and when I got by it I can tell its warmer over there than on this side of the shed
Quoted from PinballBulbs:In my workshop, which is small, when I have a new game in here full of incandescent bulbs it really heats this place up over time. When I LED the game and let it sit as well doesn't provide any noticeable heat in here. Just basing this off experience and no scientific heat meter deals.
So cold in here right now with heater going I have Maverick on to provide a bit of heat and when I got by it I can tell its warmer over there than on this side of the shed
the overall heat is diminished, The shots of the LEDs put up yesterday show they are cooler. But even running cooler they are making the insert hotter in some applications. The flex is a cointaker flex, they are by default superbrights, not ultra's or anything, just a single bright emitter. its heating the insert more than the inc bulb does. The glass holds heat on the inc bulb, so does the metal base. it allows the hotter bulb to dissipate the heat slower and over much more area, including areas away from the inserts/plastics/anything above the bulbs, etc. inc bulbs stay hot after they are turned off, this is still heat dissipating after the filament is off.
Quoted from calvin12:the overall heat is diminished, The shots of the LEDs put up yesterday show they are cooler. But even running cooler they are making the insert hotter in some applications. The flex is a cointaker flex, they are by default superbrights, not ultra's or anything, just a single bright emitter. its heating the insert more than the inc bulb does. The glass holds heat on the inc bulb, so does the metal base. it allows the hotter bulb to dissipate the heat slower and over much more area, including areas away from the inserts/plastics/anything above the bulbs, etc. inc bulbs stay hot after they are turned off, this is still heat dissipating after the filament is off.
I was mostly just pointing out if you want to heat up your shed leave your incandescent games on
Pull the glass off an Incandescent, move the 500 degree filiment closer to the insert and that'll be a good comparison to the flexbrite.
Btw, have any backbox heat comparisons been done? Isn't that where a material difference In heat would be found?
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:Pull the glass off an Incandescent, move the 500 degree filiment closer to the insert and that'll be a good comparison to the flexbrite.
Btw, have any backbox heat comparisons been done? Isn't that where a material difference In heat would be found?
First, pulling the glass of would burn the bulb out quickly making it run much cooler. Second, the flex is exactly how it is designed to be used, as is the glass bulb. Third the filament in a bulb is way over 500, that's just where my FLIR drops out at. Yet in spite of that an LED can heat up the area around it more than the bulb does. So your comparison idea is just dumb. Remember LEDs are highly directional. Third, this is about heat generated and plastic issues that people claim are avoided. That is clearly not as beneficial as people seem to think as the brightness is increased.
Quoted from calvin12:First, pulling the glass of would burn the bulb out quickly making it run much cooler. Second, the flex is exactly how it is designed to be used, as is the glass bulb. Third the filament in a bulb is way over 500, that's just where my FLIR drops out at. Yet in spite of that an LED can heat up the area around it more than the bulb does. So your comparison idea is just dumb. Remember LEDs are highly directional. Third, this is about heat generated and plastic issues that people claim are avoided. That is clearly not as beneficial as people seem to think as the brightness is increased.
LEDS generate and transfer far less heat than an incandescent. (Like for like swap; with a dome)
LEDS put out far less damaging UV than Incandescents.
LEDS draw materially less power than Incandescents
LEDS help keep a backbox cooler.
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:LEDS generate and transfer far less heat than an incandescent. (Like for like swap; with a dome)
LEDS put out far less damaging UV than Incandescents.
LEDS draw materially less power than Incandescents
LEDS help keep a backbox cooler.
Except you have been shown, repeatedly, to be wrong on point 1 in a real world application
Quoted from calvin12:Except you have been shown, repeatedly, to be wrong on point 1 in a real world application
i missed the one where a standard LED with a dome transferred more heat than an incandescent?
Quoted from calvin12:Can people now at least stop saying that they use LEDs to avoid the heat so as not to damage the plastics? The LED's shown are not superbrights these run cooler than those and while cooler than incandescent as you make them brighter they lose that benefit quickly.
PETG (which most of the manufacturer's use for playfield plastics) has a softening (for bending and forming) point around 250°F
https://www.plasticsintl.com/datasheets/PETG.pdf
given that, I don't understand how you can't think that lowering the temperature of the bulbs from 220°F (500°F at the filament) to a value half [or less] that (and well below the forming temperature) can't help but protect and reduce damage to the plastics.
Quoted from j_m_:PETG (which most of the manufacturer's use for plastics has a softening (for bending and forming) point around 250°F
https://www.plasticsintl.com/datasheets/PETG.pdf
given that, I don't understand how you can't think that lowering the temperature of the bulbs from 220°F (500°F at the filament) to a value half [or less] that (and well below the forming temperature) can't help but protect and reduce damage to the plastics.
because he's talking about heat transfer from bulb to pin. And in isolated cases where you use specialty LEDS (not just standard like for like) where there may be increased heat transfer to the playfield/plastic/insert.
Of course it ignores the reduction in backbox heat, power consumption and UV reduction.
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:because he's talking about heat transfer from bulb to pin. And in isolated cases where you use specialty LEDS (not just standard like for like) where there may be increased heat transfer to the playfield/plastic/insert.
Of course it ignores the reduction in backbox heat, power consumption and UV reduction.
It's not ignoring it at all. If you can read I specifically stated this is about nothing more than the temp reduction that people love to claim when adding LEDs. The fact is as they get brighter the heat reduction benefit diminishes. That has nothing to do with the other benefits they have.
Quoted from calvin12:It's not ignoring it at all. If you can read I specifically stated this is about nothing more than the temp reduction that people love to claim when adding LEDs. The fact is as they get brighter the heat reduction benefit diminishes. That has nothing to do with the other benefits they have.
leds in like for like swaps materially reduce heat transfer.
When you get fancy pants LEDS, heat reduction benefits can be slightly diminished (depending on bulb and application)while the other (arguably more important) benefits remain.
Fair?
Sana'a
I think some of you guys want so badly to hang onto your current mindset, that you are willfully ignoring the facts in front of you.
**some** LEDs put out as much heat as the incandescent bulbs they are replacing.
**some** LEDs draw as much current as the incandescent bulbs they are replacing.
Quoted from vid1900:I think some of you guys want so badly to hang onto your current mindset, that you are willfully ignoring the facts in front of you.
**some** LEDs put out as much heat as the incandescent bulbs they are replacing.
**some** LEDs draw as much current as the incandescent bulbs they are replacing.
Sure. And some diesels get worse gas mileage than gas. Like when you are towing 5,000 lb boats.
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:leds in like for like swaps materially reduce heat transfer.
That's all I've been starting is some leds do not reduce heat much, and surprising to me in one case are adding more heat. These are like for like swaps, I tested usingfoff the shelf bulbs that are commonly used as replacements. People put flexed under the playfield for off angle sockets. People put superbrights under inserts commonly.
Use them, enjoy them. Just know what you are doing rather than parroting what is sketchy at best word of mouth info.
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:Sure. And some diesels get worse gas mileage than gas. Like when you are towing 5,000 lb boats.
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Quoted from vid1900:I think some of you guys want so badly to hang onto your current mindset, that you are willfully ignoring the facts in front of you.
As I said, modding your pin with fancy non domed or brighter bulbs and ONE of the benefits of LED may be diminished
FWIW, I use LEDS sparingly on/in playfields but heavily in backboxes. The heat reduction benefits in the playfield aren't of particular interest to me. Seems backboxes can benefit a lot more from it though
I don't know, this all seems pointless to me. I can put my finger on a cool super, and feel little heat after a while, next to nothing. I do this with a 44/555, and it's quite hot and hard to hold my finger there.
Mix that will all the other benefits of LEDs, there really is no argument other than personal preference.
The problem with the Flex bulbs is there is no heat sink.
That tiny high wattage SMT LED is on a very small PCB with no surface copper to act as a heatsink.
On the back of that PCB is a Bridge Rectifier, a cap, and a resistor - also radiating massive heat.
The result is a massive heat buildup. There is no "connector" to sink the heat from.
With a glass bulb; the base is always a heatsink.
Quoted from Zitt:The problem with the Flex bulbs is there is no heat sink.
That tiny high wattage SMT LED is on a very small PCB with no surface copper to act as a heatsink.
On the back of that PCB is a Bridge Rectifier, a cap, and a resistor - also radiating massive heat.
The result is a massive heat buildup. There is no "connector" to sink the heat from.
With a glass bulb; the base is always a heatsink.
Flex and domed have this same issue, they all come in plastic housing that do little in terms of heat dissipation at least the 44s still have a can under them but that is insulted away by the plastic housing.
Interesting re: glass/metal as heat sync...I wonder if an led with glass/metal base would be the 'ultimate' for low heat...
Also, why are my LED backboxes so much cooler than the incandescent ones? Maybe because the LED transfers heat to the translite and then it dissipates to the outside of the pin vs. inside? Which I guess is good for backbox boards etc but not great for translite...
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:Also, why are my LED backboxes so much cooler than the incandescent ones?
1. You probably have not installed super bright flexi LEDs to replace your incandescent bulbs - so less heat generated.
2. If you used LEDs that draw less current than the incandescent bulbs, your PS is generating less heat too.
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:Interesting re: glass/metal as heat sync...I wonder if an led with glass/metal base would be the 'ultimate' for low heat...
Also, why are my LED backboxes so much cooler than the incandescent ones? Maybe because the LED transfers heat to the translite and then it dissipates to the outside of the pin vs. inside? Which I guess is good for backbox boards etc but not great for translite...
if you look at the FLIR, the inc is dispersing its heat all over its body. The LED's have a much smaller hotspot and the LED is highly directional. Its putting the heat out along the as visible radiation, thats mostly along the light path. There is heat dissipation in the bases near the location of the elements themselves. The temp of the emitter is lower but way more focused. Think of laser cutting. you can cut steel with a laser in a very thin line and the metal outside of the light path is not getting heated much. Obviously the heat of the LED is nowhere near that of a cutting laser, but the general principle likely applies. But that's just conjecture, I can't test that.
Actually; I think most of the heat is generated by the substrate of the LED Die.
In high power applications; the substrate is bonded to the larger number of pins usually.
I know on the 250mA version I used on ST:MU; the data sheet said a minimum number of square inches of Copper plane attached to the anodes to maintain maximum light out put.
None of the cheap LEDs use high power LEDs; almost all use the cheaper 20mA die/leds. I'm not sure any of the standard LEDs use high power leds... except maybe the quazars from Comet Pinball.
Quoted from calvin12:27 minutes of full on and running the bulbs under the inserts. I just shut off the game after these were taken, this is the last update.
84.7 degrees incandescent
78.1 degrees 2 led dome
88.2 degrees flex
hmm single simple led and its hotter than inc??? but wait that's impossible! Or maybe its time to realize LED while very good, can produce just as much heat as an inc bulb to you game. Actually there is a much larger hotspot on the flex, its putting much more heat into the insert than the inc even is.That's an interesting test, and point taken that some LEDs can be as hot as inc... most important to note an LED with same brightness as an inc is far cooler.
As others have pointed out a flex is designed for directional GI rather than inserts, typically pointing away from plastics and out onto open space; something you cannot do with a non-flex bulb, and will, by nature of this application, avoid heating plastics entirely.
These tests confirm why I use LED's in my pins. Right?
I urge anyone to test the cab temp of a baby pacman running incandescent for a half hour, vs. the same time running LED's.
I didn't actually run the test myself, but my babypac went from an ez-bake oven with incandescent bulbs to a pretty much a room temperature enclosure with LED's.
Even a slight reduction in heat from each bulb will eventually culminate in a great heat reduction when multiplied by 64 lamps.
ok geez.. LED's put out less heat per lumen and use less power BUT the output is directionally focused and CAN make a spot hotter if close and directly in its line of fire. LED with wide angle dispersion caps might be a fairer comparison to the moreso omnidirectional incandescents? http://shop.cointaker.com/category.sc;jsessionid=DCC737DCB9E33531DFA5BD2994A31B68.m1plqscsfapp06?categoryId=2
concave top with a frosted dome cover too, could be a "brighter than incandescent" winner?
no arguments here, I see the point OP is making as valid too, although comparing a directionally focused flexy to an omni-incandescent seems unfairly weighted?
Quoted from Baiter:That's an interesting test, and point taken that some LEDs can be as hot as inc... most important to note an LED with same brightness as an inc is far cooler.
As others have pointed out a flex is designed for directional GI rather than inserts, typically pointing away from plastics and out onto open space; something you cannot do with a non-flex bulb, and will, by nature of this application, avoid heating plastics entirely.
Seriously, flex isn't for inserts, that's how they are marketed!
Of course an LED of the same brightness as an inc is cooler overall, but even then if the light is focused it will still create heat where its pointed. the problem is none of the LEDs are anywhere near as dim as the LEDs being used in pin. CT actually says in their marketing that the LEDs produce "no heat" The point is just use what you want but stop saying they are no heat. they can put out as much or more as inc bulbs. Stop the mis-information.
Quoted from zizzlemeplease:although comparing a directionally focused flexy to an omni-incandescent seems unfairly weighted?
not really its a real world switch people do and claim that it is making the plastics cooler. The overall heat fro the LED is lower, the game temp can be lower, but the focused energy can make the lit points as hot or hotter than incs.
Montech
Salut
Interesting test.
Maybe we should ask the Mythbusters to check it in detail .
Still I think that most LEDs are drawing less current and that the hot spot is much more located and therefore LEDs are heating up the environment less than incs.
Thanks to the OP for having taken the time to make these tests and post the results here
Up to everybody to make his own conclusion.
Cheers,
flugs
Quoted from calvin12:not really its a real world switch people do and claim that it is making the plastics cooler. The overall heat fro the LED is lower, the game temp can be lower, but the focused energy can make the lit points as hot or hotter than incs.
no doubt about that being the truth too, when they probably should look to using the wide angle concave LED's a lot more instead? how do those measure up with both lumens and FLIR?
Quoted from calvin12:Seriously, flex isn't for inserts, that's how they are marketed!
I use flex for rollover inserts all the time.
The double headed ones seem MADE for rollovers.
On the positive side, the rollover inserts are ventilated, so the heat can escape......
take me to your rollover.jpgQuoted from zizzlemeplease:although comparing a directionally focused flexy to an omni-incandescent seems unfairly weighted?
Of course it is. But apples to apples likely wouldn't create the same results as we've seen here.
I've never even considered flexes for inserts. Domed/frosted bulbs work perfectly. I do use them if I'm looking to light up a kickout hole or something though...
Quoted from flugs:Salut
Interesting test.
Maybe we should ask the Mythbusters to check it in detail
Still I think that most LEDs are drawing less current and that the hot spot is much more located and therefore LEDs are heating up the environment less than incs.
Thanks to the OP for having taken the time to make these tests and post the results here
Up to everybody to make his own conclusion.
Cheers,
flugs
They deff draw less current
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:Of course it is. But apples to apples likely wouldn't create the same results as we've seen here.
I've never even considered flexes for inserts. Domed/frosted bulbs work perfectly. I do use them if I'm looking to light up a kickout hole or something though...
This is as Apple's to Apple's as it get since these are the common replacement leds for pins.It called test what is axially done.
Quoted from calvin12:This is as Apple's to Apple's as it get since these are the common replacement leds for pins.It called test what is axially done.
Oh stop. It's really interesting stuff and VERY cool that it was done but it's for sure not Apples to apples. Apples to apples implies bulbs as similar as possible in shape, size, light output etc.
Can you throw in some frosted domed bulbs for a real apples to apples? That would be cool. I've never used a flex in inserts (and I know many owners that don't use flexes).
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:Can you throw in some frosted domed bulbs for a real apples to apples? That would be cool. I've never used a flex in inserts (and I know many owners that don't use flexes).
Can you bother to actually read what was already posted? And it is a typical change out. There is no direct comparison since all the LEDs are brighter than the incs. This is what people do. Try to read and comprehend before you go bitching about things.
Quoted from calvin12:Can you bother to actually read what was already posted? And it is a typical change out. There is no direct comparison since all the LEDs are brighter than the incs. This is what people do. Try to read and comprehend before you go bitching about things.
I read it.
And I'm not bitching so not sure the comprehension issue is on this side of the screen.
I'm not an incandescent nor a LED fanboy. So I will reiterate that it's very cool data and I'm glad someone took the time to do it and post it.
I also know what apples to apples means and the comparison done here isn't an example of it. Just because some people use flexes doesn't mean the two are apples to apples.
Go warm white domed LED and we'll pick up a more relevant discussion from there.
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:I read it.
And I'm not bitching so not sure the comprehension issue is on this side of the screen.
I'm not an incandescent nor a LED fanboy. So I will reiterate that it's very cool data and I'm glad someone took the time to do it and post it.
I also know what apples to apples means and the comparison done here isn't an example of it. Just because some people use flexes doesn't mean the two are apples to apples.
Go warm white domed LED and we'll pick up a more relevant discussion from there.
again read and understand what was already posted many times.
Quoted from calvin12:again read and understand what was already posted many times.
Yep. I have. And I get it.
Materially brighter, non domed bulbs that can be twisted within a hairs distance from an insert make inserts hotter.
All I was saying is that it would be cool to see MORE of the apples to apples LEDs tested too (warm whites, clears etc).
Not a big deal. No need for feathers ruffled.
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:Yep. I have. And I get it.
Materially brighter, non domed bulbs that can be twisted within a hairs distance from an insert make inserts hotter.
All I was saying is that it would be cool to see MORE of the apples to apples LEDs tested too (warm whites, clears etc).
Not a big deal. No need for feathers ruffled.
if you are still saying the same thing you have not read and/or understood what has been tested at all. As for putting the led a hair from the insert, that is also addressed and it was shown exactly where it was positioned, as far as possible from the insert face. as close as possible to the lamp base so as not to artificially build heat. you serious have a comprehension issue.
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