LED vs INCANDESCENT Thermal Imagery

2
Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders.

By Sparky347

4 years ago


Stats

  • Started 4 years ago
  • 42 posts
  • 23 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by KenLayton

Find posts in this topic

Find posts in this topic match certain words or written by a specific Pinsider. Or both!


Topic Gallery

Uploaded by Sparky347
Uploaded by Sparky347
Uploaded by Sparky347
Uploaded by Sparky347
Uploaded by Sparky347
Uploaded by Sparky347
Uploaded by Sparky347
Uploaded by Sparky347
Uploaded by Sparky347
Uploaded by Sparky347


Games linked to topic

Link this topic to the game(s) discussed in it.



    #1 4 years ago

    Gotta catch a plane in a couple of hours, but as promised.....

    Test subject BK2K-
    All Lamps on for the same amount of time.

    Back Box

    Half Incandescent #44, 2 - 55W lamps, Half Frosted #44 LED
    All temperatures recorded in Celsius

    Back_box_INC_vs_LED.jpg Back_box_INC_vs_LED_IR.jpg Back_box_INC_vs_LED_graph.jpg

    #2 4 years ago

    Inserts with LED , guide lanes and Pops with #44 incandescent

    playfield_inserts_led_VL.jpg playfield_inserts_led_IR.jpg Playfield_LED_graph.jpg

    #3 4 years ago

    Playfield inserts #555 all incandescent

    playfield_inc_VL.jpg playfield_inc_IR.jpg playfield_inc_graph.jpg

    #4 4 years ago

    Side by side inserts LED vs INC from under playfield

    insert_under_VL.jpg insert_under_IR.jpg Insert_graph.jpg

    #5 4 years ago

    Will post more when I return.

    #6 4 years ago

    One reason I like LED's. It proves that a picture is worth a thousand words. This discussion has gone back and forth but I bet this helps some understand.

    #7 4 years ago

    this is exactly why I tear those heaters out of every pin as soon as possible. LED never melted nuttin

    #8 4 years ago

    I'm going to LED out my Fire! when I return. I'm going to take some images of the row/column wires, fuses and driver board before and after for comparisson. Should be interesting.

    #9 4 years ago

    Is it just me or is cointaker missing the boat here. This should be there main advertising pitch. Maybe im just a big nerd but I think those pics are very cool.... well half of the pics at least. These threads are going to be linked and referenced for quite a while. can we add these pics to the sticky on LED's?

    #10 4 years ago

    Less strain and much less of a heat signature is a part of the reason why they are a no brainer for me.

    #11 4 years ago

    Thanks for all your time and equipment for thermal imaging Sparky

    Very nice comparison.

    Have a safe trip.

    #12 4 years ago

    I can post some pics under the LED sticky when I return, going to be awaya from my main rig for awhile.

    #13 4 years ago

    And Haven't forgotten about you Cliffy, Didn't have the time to play a game so the shots of my driver board and fuse holders weren't very good. I'll take some close ups under load soon.

    #14 4 years ago

    The incandescent bulbs in the back box look, scientifically speaking, a bazillion times brighter than the LED's. What happens when you compare two bulbs that are equal candle power or a incandescent bulb vs something brighter like a CT super or something.

    #15 4 years ago
    Quoted from Winball_Pizard:

    The incandescent bulbs in the back box look, scientifically speaking, a bazillion times brighter than the LED's. What happens when you compare two bulbs that are equal candle power or a incandescent bulb vs something brighter like a CT super or something.

    You're right. The difference in lumen output of the left side vs. the right side is huge. This is not an apples to apples comparison really as the right side of the box are actually frosted yellow LED's, they are the only loose LED I had in quantities to be able to do a significant portion of the backbox. I did take a shot with several frosted cool whites that I'd pulled out of my LIS, and although the lumen output seemed comparable, the heat signature was still very much the same as what is pictured in the top set of pics. Honestly, I am a bit of an ubergeek when it comes to this kind of stuff, I actually have a trending light output meter that measures LUX, Lumens and foot candles too, so when I get back we can do some much more clinical testing if we want.

    #16 4 years ago

    this is A W E S O M E !!!!

    thanks for sharing sparky

    #17 4 years ago

    If you have the time at some point... and this might be a little bit of work...

    I'd be curious to see how the same backbox GI connector looks with incandescent vs LED... as this is a source of burned pins with so many machines.

    I specifically put LEDs in my backbox to prevent further issues with the connectors on my board. Although... I did 1/2 of each LED and incandescent.

    Edit: I guess you said you were going to do that on your Fire! a few posts up. Thanks!

    #18 4 years ago

    Very cool experiment.

    I have no doubt that even at comparable Lumen output, the LEDs are going to run much cooler than incandescent.

    Unfortunately I have yet to find a good warm white LED. Otherwise I'd replace all the incandescent. I'm going to have to look into higher end LEDs as I understand there may be some better warm light in some of them.

    #19 4 years ago

    Awesome pics, thanks for posting these.

    #20 4 years ago

    Not a big LED fan, but this is very cool (as are the LEDs apparently).
    May have to change out some Edison bulbs located under plastics just to protect the plastic.

    Are any of the newest machines including factory LED's?

    #21 4 years ago
    Quoted from decktard:

    If you have the time at some point... and this might be a little bit of work...
    I'd be curious to see how the same backbox GI connector looks with incandescent vs LED... as this is a source of burned pins with so many machines.
    I specifically put LEDs in my backbox to prevent further issues with the connectors on my board. Although... I did 1/2 of each LED and incandescent.
    Edit: I guess you said you were going to do that on your Fire! a few posts up. Thanks!

    Can do.

    #22 4 years ago

    Cool (no pun intended) pictures! For most home users I don't think incandescent bulbs put enough of a strain on a healthy circuit to do harm, unless you leave them on 12 hours a day. I have a few LED's but I'm not sold on them yet. I like the slower light decay you get from incandescent bulbs, LED's instant on/off seems harsh to my eyes.

    #23 4 years ago
    Quoted from Dewey68:

    Cool (no pun intended) pictures! For most home users I don't think incandescent bulbs put enough of a strain on a healthy circuit to do harm, unless you leave them on 12 hours a day. I have a few LED's but I'm not sold on them yet. I like the slower light decay you get from incandescent bulbs, LED's instant on/off seems harsh to my eyes.

    Agreed, I think there are games that look better with the twinkle of standard bulbs, hell, all of the lamps in my house are halogen as I don't like the artificial look of LED's compact fluorescent etc. That said, I'm having a rough time finding plastics for a couple of my games, if the trade off for keeping the plastics I've still got healthy and happy for years to come is a harsher looking light, chances are I'll change 'em out.

    #24 4 years ago
    Quoted from Sparky347:

    Agreed, I think there are games that look better with the twinkle of standard bulbs, hell, all of the lamps in my house are halogen as I don't like the artificial look of LED's compact fluorescent etc.

    The CREE CR6 recessed lights are great. They have active color temperature management, and to my eyes they look like sunlight. I installed these throughout my house a few years ago; no failures yet. The payback is 4-5 years.

    Unfortunately high-quality LEDs are too expensive for pinball lighting.

    #25 4 years ago

    These pics are neat, but they beg the question: does this kind of heat (100-120 degrees F) really damage plastics and inserts? Or is this only an issue when the bulb is in contact with the plastic, like on a pop bumper?

    #26 4 years ago

    Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check those out.

    I've never personally had plastics damaged, other that warping and yellowing, but ive seen my fair share of burnt bumper caps. Also, after spending a bunch of time knocking back playfield inserts in my f-14, i gotta figure cooler is better.

    #27 4 years ago

    Fuck all this - I'm going to do mine with nixie tubes!

    Seriously though - one very interesting photo would be a pin with a mostly symmetrical layout, half the playfield with standard #44s, the other with whatever the warmest white led people can find is. Not a heat pic, just a really good photo with minimal flash and good exposure.

    #28 4 years ago
    Quoted from system11:

    Fuck all this - I'm going to do mine with nixie tubes!
    Seriously though - one very interesting photo would be a pin with a mostly symmetrical layout, half the playfield with standard #44s, the other with whatever the warmest white led people can find is. Not a heat pic, just a really good photo with minimal flash and good exposure.

    I don't have any of those fancy retro LEDs, but I'm converting a few games from #47 back to #44. I'll take before and after pics of them with the same exposure settings.

    $1.29 for a "warm white retro", 11 cents for a #44. Crazy...

    #29 4 years ago

    Sparky I think you have my old getaway. Confirm or deny?

    #30 4 years ago

    All this LED versus incandescent talk. I just remove lights from all my inserts, so I'm forced to mentally keep track of game progress. I find I now play with extreme focus, and a note pad.

    #31 4 years ago
    Quoted from sixsixtie:

    Sparky I think you have my old getaway. Confirm or deny?

    I bought mine on the Island a couple years back. Beautiful machine.

    #32 4 years ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    These pics are neat, but they beg the question: does this kind of heat (100-120 degrees F) really damage plastics and inserts? Or is this only an issue when the bulb is in contact with the plastic, like on a pop bumper?

    a lot may have to do with the size of the plastic and lack of room for the heat to dissipate

    if you look a good number of the remaining williams joust machines, the apron plastics on many of them are all messed up with bubbling from the heat generated by the 44's underneath them. of course, this is an extreme scenario where you've got quite a few incandecent bulbs fairly close together underneath a huge piece of plastic with no where for the heat to vent to

    #33 4 years ago

    This is really great. Could you do the PCBs in the backbox? I'd be really interested in seeing where the heat is.

    Thanks!

    #34 4 years ago
    Quoted from Sparky347:

    I bought mine on the Island a couple years back. Beautiful machine.

    Ah cool. Not mine. The guy I sold mine to had a BK as well as two other machines so I though the chances were decent. I think he was from Langley too.

    #35 4 years ago
    Quoted from sixsixtie:

    Ah cool. Not mine. The guy I sold mine to had a BK as well as two other machines so I though the chances were decent. I think he was from Langley too.

    I think thats my buddy Dave. Great guy, played my Getaway and wanted his own.

    #36 4 years ago
    Quoted from putman:

    This is really great. Could you do the PCBs in the backbox? I'd be really interested in seeing where the heat is.
    Thanks!

    Next series. That's where these cameras are awesome in ths hobby. Bad solder joints, bad connectors, oberloaded wires, fuses etc. Thry all show up like lightning bolts.

    #37 4 years ago
    Quoted from Sparky347:

    I think thats my buddy Dave. Great guy, played my Getaway and wanted his own.

    Yeah, Dave sounds right.

    #38 4 years ago
    Quoted from Sparky347:

    And Haven't forgotten about you Cliffy, Didn't have the time to play a game so the shots of my driver board and fuse holders weren't very good

    No sweat (get it? but really that's what you want to capture. Good fuse clips vs weak ones. Weak ones should show really hot.

    #39 4 years ago
    Quoted from Cliffy:

    No sweat (get it? but really that's what you want to capture. Good fuse clips vs weak ones. Weak ones should show really hot.

    For sure. The smoking gun pictures that I want to capture will show the fuse warmer on one side than the other. If the fuse is seated well the current should be the same throughout the length of the fuse. Likewise, looking at rows and columns/strobes etc. finding one wire that glows brighter than the other means that it is usually more heavily loaded than its neighbours but not nescessarily a problem.That same wire that glows more brightly at the termination and cools the further it gets from it, thats a bad connection that if not corrected will end up with a burnt connector or worse.

    1 month later
    #40 4 years ago

    Less heat? yes
    Less eye strain? Definitely no
    Less warping? Maybe. I have seen plenty of old NOS playfields with cupped/raised inserts. I am convinced that has nothing to do with the lamps and more to do with the wood expanding and shrinking over time with humidity, etc.

    Fact is LEDs were not meant for older machines. Square peg meet round hole. Strobing and flicker causes eyestrain and headaches. Also, makes the ball harder to follow. I buy one of your monstrosity complete LED machines and I don't even turn it on when I get it home until all of the LEDs are out and real bulbs are in.

    New games like ACDC LE/Premium and XMen LE have completely redesigned circuitry meant from day one for LEDs. No problems there - round peg in round hole.

    John

    #41 4 years ago

    People either love them or hate them. There doesn't seem to be anything in between. It's okay if you don't like LED's and I do agree that some machines especially EM's should just be left alone.

    #42 4 years ago

    I want to see thermal imagery of the general illumination connectors after the machine has been on a few hours.

    Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
    From: $ 15.00
    Electronics
    nvram.weebly.com
    From: $ 42.00
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 24.99
    Lighting - Interactive
    Lee's Parts
    From: $ 24.99
    Lighting - Led
    Lee's Parts
    $ 49.99
    Lighting - Led
    PinballBulbs
    From: $ 29.00
    Boards
    KAHR.US Circuits
    $ 5.00
    Playfield - Decals
    Metal-Mods
    $ 194.99
    $ 43.50
    $ 53.50
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Lermods
    $ 66.95
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    Super Skill Shot Shop
    From: $ 42.00
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 48.00
    Cabinet - Other
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 45.00
    Apparel - Unisex
    Double Danger Pinball
    $ 37.00
    Lighting - Led
    PinballToys
    $ 75.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    PinballToys
    $ 239.99
    Lighting - Led
    PinballBulbs
    $ 65.00
    Cabinet - Decals
    Flip N Out Pinball
    $ 47.99
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Lermods
    $ 110.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    PinballToys
    $ 25.00
    Playfield - Decals
    Metal-Mods
    $ 15.00
    Playfield - Decals
    Metal-Mods
    From: $ 349.95
    Boards
    PinSound

    Reply

    Note: This is an old thread. The last post was made to it 1,692 days ago. Resurrecting old threads is not necessarily a bad thing, if you think the topic is still relevant and/or your post is beneficial to it (e.g. following up on something). In other cases, it might be better to create a new topic.

    Wanna join the discussion? Sign up for a Pinside account, or log in if you already have an account.