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(Topic ID: 179046)

LED Questions


By Robl45

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 28 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by OLDPINGUY
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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    #1 3 years ago

    I am putting LED's in NGG TOM and possible Dr. Dude. I'm trying to do it as cost effective as possible. Right now the machines are heating up my office to the point its quite uncomfortable and I can't imagine its good for the games either.

    I've been looking at Comets site and the 300 Flat Top LEDs is quite a deal at 78 bucks or so. Has anyone used these bulbs, will they work good everywhere? I"m just looking for something relatively simple that I can use in all places without going crazy. Will these bulbs work in the horizontal locations which seems to be many in TOM and NGG?

    I've also been looking at the 2SMD bulbs which while quite a bit more expensive, I have heard will work fine in the horizontal locations although I don't want the things stupid bright. A little brighter than current with the Incandescent would be nice as my daughter likes to play in the dark and its a little dim now.

    #2 3 years ago

    I use comet bulbs and they are great. Flat or dome top, single and 2 diode, and color matched for the inserts. Good bang for the buck

    #3 3 years ago

    I'm also a Comet customer. Twin SMD with frosted lens. Perfect for 99.9% of applications.

    #4 3 years ago

    Agree with maffewl, I like the twin smd frosted. I'd never use the cheapest bulbs... to me they look tacky and are just not bright enough to make a difference. If you're worried about being too bright but still want nice looking bulbs then go with the comfort bright.

    Might be worth your while to purchase a couple of varieties and see what looks good to you. Or check with your locals and ask if they have a few spares for you to test.

    -4
    #5 3 years ago
    Quoted from MMP:

    Agree with maffewl, I like the twin smd frosted. I'd never use the cheapest bulbs... to me they look tacky and are just not bright enough to make a difference. If you're worried about being too bright but still want nice looking bulbs then go with the comfort bright.
    Might be worth your while to purchase a couple of varieties and see what looks good to you. Or check with your locals and ask if they have a few spares for you to test.

    the fact that the cheap ones are similar to the output of inc bulbs is the major benefit. going brighter loses the heat reduction benefit, and looks like crap.

    #6 3 years ago
    Quoted from volcanodiver:

    the fact that the cheap ones are similar to the output of inc bulbs is the major benefit. going brighter loses the heat reduction benefit, and looks like crap.

    Let's not propagate myths here. The heat output of LEDs is overwhelmingly lower than incandescent bulbs, and the difference between a 1 LED bulb to a 2 SMD bulb is absolutely negligible. I have massive overhead LED spot lights in our home that are barely above room temperate at full output. The heat generated by a 2 SMD bulb is still negligible. In fact, most of the so-called heat would be generated by the resistors dropping the voltage to the forward voltage of the diode, so this really is a complete farce statement.

    As for how they look, that's a matter of personal preference. It's very tough to compare the light throw of LEDs to incandescents because the direction of throw is focused and non-uniform. Frosted bulbs help offset this somewhat. Flat tops are very directionally focused and overall a poor use in GI, but decent in upward focused insert sockets.

    The problem with these 300 packs, is that one size does not fit all. You first of all have different bulb types (wedge 555 or bayonet 44s), then the colors. Unless you're using 2 SMDs, yellow and orange LEDs product much lower brightness because of the semiconductor used. Thus, it's recommended to color match inserts (red/red, green/green, white/white) except for yellow and oranges where warm white or "sunlight" white is recommended.

    You may very well be happy with 300 flat tops, but as a first go, I would recommend getting a variety of bulb types. I find myself using 1 SMD 5050s in most locations. I love the 2 SMDs that come with the newer Sterns, but feel they are too bright in older titles, even just as inserts. Again, it's a matter of personal taste and that's really your call. COMET also has 300 packs of the SMDs bulbs as well at discount.

    #7 3 years ago
    Quoted from wxforecaster:

    Let's not propagate myths here. The heat output of LEDs is overwhelmingly lower than incandescent bulbs, and the difference between a 1 LED bulb to a 2 SMD bulb is absolutely negligible. I have massive overhead LED spot lights in our home that are barely above room temperate at full output. The heat generated by a 2 SMD bulb is still negligible. In fact, most of the so-called heat would be generated by the resistors dropping the voltage to the forward voltage of the diode, so this really is a complete farce statement.
    As for how they look, that's a matter of personal preference. It's very tough to compare the light throw of LEDs to incandescents because the direction of throw is focused and non-uniform. Frosted bulbs help offset this somewhat. Flat tops are very directionally focused and overall a poor use in GI, but decent in upward focused insert sockets.
    The problem with these 300 packs, is that one size does not fit all. You first of all have different bulb types (wedge 555 or bayonet 44s), then the colors. Unless you're using 2 SMDs, yellow and orange LEDs product much lower brightness because of the semiconductor used. Thus, it's recommended to color match inserts (red/red, green/green, white/white) except for yellow and oranges where warm white or "sunlight" white is recommended.
    You may very well be happy with 300 flat tops, but as a first go, I would recommend getting a variety of bulb types. I find myself using 1 SMD 5050s in most locations. I love the 2 SMDs that come with the newer Sterns, but feel they are too bright in older titles, even just as inserts. Again, it's a matter of personal taste and that's really your call. COMET also has 300 packs of the SMDs bulbs as well at discount.

    you should also not propogate myths. overall heat is dimished, but like you said the output is very directional. there are posts here somewhere a few years ago showing FLIR images of multiple bulb styles, the LED's would get the plastics as hot as the incs due to the directionality of the output.

    #8 3 years ago

    These titles look great in 2smd frosted.
    Average cost is $100 to $115 per game.
    Keep your incandescent flashers in the back box, maybe brightening 1 or 2 for affect.
    To get the cost lower, scatter frosted or self
    Frosted, in the back box, these same flat tops will light small circle inserts well too.
    Not GI.
    Doing it this way, will get you around $80 to $90 a game.
    Id still grab a few opmax for back or strips, to make it rock, and at that point, you max at $100, but some games can go lower
    Due to bulb count.

    I just saw a fishtaled done with 100%
    2 smd sunlight frosted, and while i would tweak and color matched, the game looked phenomenal. NGG has a similar palatte.

    #9 3 years ago
    Quoted from volcanodiver:

    you should also not propogate myths. overall heat is dimished, but like you said the output is very directional. there are posts here somewhere a few years ago showing FLIR images of multiple bulb styles, the LED's would get the plastics as hot as the incs due to the directionality of the output.

    that is utter nonsense. I work with LEDs outside of pinball, not to mention the optics and thermodynamics courses I took in college for my degree. Light != heat. Diodes, especially with forward voltages averaging between 1.8 and 3.2V, produce so little heat it's negligible. The direction(s) of the light output has to do with the geometry (shape, roughness, transparency) of the bulb housing. Art (and others) have worked with the manufacturers to try difference shapes, groves, LED/SMD placement, etc. to either mimic or improve upon the legacy of pinball incandescent bulbs. The semiconductor produces the same light and heat output regardless of the bulb shape. Saying a flat top bulb produces more upward directionally focused heat is simply pure bullshit.

    I will gladly keep a bunch of 2 SMD flat top bulbs (if such a thing existed) directly under a pinball plastic for a year straight 24/7 to demonstrate the silliness of this statement. Flat top LEDs (or any other standard 555/44 offering) does not get hot, period.

    #10 3 years ago

    Eye of the beholder. As I said, OP is best off getting a few of each kind and deciding what looks best. I've got several of the cheapies that I've ripped out of games to replace with bulbs to fit my taste. I'm sure other pinheads in your area have extras they'd be happy to donate.

    But good news! Even after you decide on a bulb type we can all argue about warm vs cool, and what colors to use under the inserts.

    #11 3 years ago
    Quoted from wxforecaster:

    that is utter nonsense. I work with LEDs outside of pinball, not to mention the optics and thermodynamics courses I took in college for my degree. Light != heat. Diodes, especially with forward voltages averaging between 1.8 and 3.2V, produce so little heat it's negligible. The direction(s) of the light output has to do with the geometry (shape, roughness, transparency) of the bulb housing. Art (and others) have worked with the manufacturers to try difference shapes, groves, LED/SMD placement, etc. to either mimic or improve upon the legacy of pinball incandescent bulbs. The semiconductor produces the same light and heat output regardless of the bulb shape. Saying a flat top bulb produces more upward directionally focused heat is simply pure bullshit.
    I will gladly keep a bunch of 2 SMD flat top bulbs (if such a thing existed) directly under a pinball plastic for a year straight 24/7 to demonstrate the silliness of this statement. Flat top LEDs (or any other standard 555/44 offering) does not get hot, period.

    Check the FLIR and get back to me with real data.
    The heat that you claim isn't generated must be why larger LED's come with heat sinks that get too hot to touch.

    #12 3 years ago

    I'm not completely sure what you are saying. Are you saying 2smd frosted is good for basically everywhere but the flat top leds are only good for small inserts? Why would I not use LED flashers in the backbox?

    Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

    These titles look great in 2smd frosted.
    Average cost is $100 to $115 per game.
    Keep your incandescent flashers in the back box, maybe brightening 1 or 2 for affect.
    To get the cost lower, scatter frosted or self
    Frosted, in the back box, these same flat tops will light small circle inserts well too.
    Not GI.
    Doing it this way, will get you around $80 to $90 a game.
    Id still grab a few opmax for back or strips, to make it rock, and at that point, you max at $100, but some games can go lower
    Due to bulb count.
    I just saw a fishtaled done with 100%
    2 smd sunlight frosted, and while i would tweak and color matched, the game looked phenomenal. NGG has a similar palatte.

    #13 3 years ago
    Quoted from Robl45:

    I'm not completely sure what you are saying. Are you saying 2smd frosted is good for basically everywhere but the flat top leds are only good for small inserts? Why would I not use LED flashers in the backbox?

    LED flashers in the BB are generally too bright while playing the game and they will give small areas of extremely bright light rather than an overall burst of light like inc's do. The placement in a BB puts them very near the glass and the light does not diffuse well. a flasher on the PF tends to be dome covered which diffuses the light which helps with LED's. its still bright but its not in effect a spotlight when it turns on.

    #14 3 years ago
    Quoted from Robl45:

    I'm not completely sure what you are saying. Are you saying 2smd frosted is good for basically everywhere but the flat top leds are only good for small inserts? Why would I not use LED flashers in the backbox?

    oldpinguy was suggesting ways to lower the costs if that is a concern. He would know, as he owned Comet Pinball and recently sold it. My suggestion would be to get Twin SMDs with frosted lens throughout. Sunlight white is a perfect medium between Natural & Warm for general GI. I would only splash color a specific locations so that it doesn't look like a unicorn threw up on the playfield. I would also use Twin SMDs for the inserts, and color match them. The only exception would be to use Warm Whites for yellow inserts instead of Yellow/Amber as they tend to look a little orange. For flashers, I use the 8 SMD bulbs with no lens. My .02.

    Here's a pic of a PotC I did per the above message. Twin SMDs in Sunlight White, splashing color, color matched inserts, 8 SMD flashers in Natural White.

    IMG_5334 (resized).JPG

    #15 3 years ago

    Do not put the cheap single LED comet ones in GI circuits. They degrade brightness very rapidly giving them a usable life far less than a standard incandescent bulb. In fact, I wold avoid the bottom price bracket ones all together unless you flip games.

    For GI, spring for a good AC bulb that advertises no flicker.

    #16 3 years ago
    Quoted from maffewl:

    oldpinguy was suggesting ways to lower the costs if that is a concern. He would know, as he owned Comet Pinball and recently sold it. My suggestion would be to get Twin SMDs with frosted lens throughout. Sunlight white is a perfect medium between Natural & Warm for general GI. I would only splash color a specific locations so that it doesn't look like a unicorn threw up on the playfield. I would also use Twin SMDs for the inserts, and color match them. The only exception would be to use Warm Whites for yellow inserts instead of Yellow/Amber as they tend to look a little orange. For flashers, I use the 8 SMD bulbs with no lens. My .02.
    Here's a pic of a PotC I did per the above message. Twin SMDs in Sunlight White, splashing color, color matched inserts, 8 SMD flashers in Natural White.

    frosted is the key.

    #17 3 years ago

    Who owns comet now?

    Quoted from maffewl:

    oldpinguy was suggesting ways to lower the costs if that is a concern. He would know, as he owned Comet Pinball and recently sold it. My suggestion would be to get Twin SMDs with frosted lens throughout. Sunlight white is a perfect medium between Natural & Warm for general GI. I would only splash color a specific locations so that it doesn't look like a unicorn threw up on the playfield. I would also use Twin SMDs for the inserts, and color matchunder them. The only exception would be to use Warm Whites for yellow inserts instead of Yellow/Amber as they tend to look a little orange. For flashers, I use the 8 SMD bulbs with no lens. My .02.
    Here's a pic of a PotC I did per the above message. Twin SMDs in Sunlight White, splashing color, color matched inserts, 8 SMD flashers in Natural White.

    #18 3 years ago
    Quoted from Robl45:

    Who owns comet now?

    ryanwanger

    #21 3 years ago

    You win the avatar war though with Spike.

    #22 3 years ago

    I find the lowest price dome frosted from Comet are the most economical and least annoying @ 38c
    http://www.cometpinball.com/product-p/8mm-led.htm

    Save your monies and keep the GI incandescent

    Don't listen to anyone that tells you to start adding LEDs strips all around the game...no idea why people do this as it looks stupid.

    #23 3 years ago

    Comet's 250 piece master kits are the best deal in all of pinball IMO. Ryan and company are fantastic and the price is unbeatable; just grabbed 2-250 piece master kits from him last week.

    Though not as economical, I put LED OCD into every pin that wasn't designed for LEDs. Very happy with he results.

    #24 3 years ago
    Quoted from mrmark0673:

    Comet's 250 piece master kits are the best deal in all of pinball IMO. Ryan and company are fantastic and the price is unbeatable; just grabbed 2-250 piece master kits from him last week.
    Though not as economical, I put LED OCD into every pin that wasn't designed for LEDs. Very happy with he results.

    I been looking at that with 2 SMD. Problem is you get some colors that I might not use, so I'm thinking probably better to do like a bulk 100 white since white is needed in a lot of places and then 25 packs of red blue green. If I do a bulk 100 and then 6 25 packs, it comes out to 7 bucks more than the 250 piece and I don't end up with colors I may never use.

    #25 3 years ago
    Quoted from Robl45:

    I been looking at that with 2 SMD. Problem is you get some colors that I might not use, so I'm thinking probably better to do like a bulk 100 white since white is needed in a lot of places and then 25 packs of red blue green. If I do a bulk 100 and then 6 25 packs, it comes out to 7 bucks more than the 250 piece and I don't end up with colors I may never use.

    Good call. I would've done the same thing.

    #26 3 years ago
    Quoted from Robl45:

    I been looking at that with 2 SMD. Problem is you get some colors that I might not use, so I'm thinking probably better to do like a bulk 100 white since white is needed in a lot of places and then 25 packs of red blue green. If I do a bulk 100 and then 6 25 packs, it comes out to 7 bucks more than the 250 piece and I don't end up with colors I may never use.

    I don't think you can go wrong either way. I end up picking up new pin every few months and they always need a shop job. I like to color match inserts and you never know what color you might need, so I like covering my bases with the master kit.

    You also get 2 light strips that add some more versatility.

    Regardless, Comet in bulk by whichever method you prefer is definitely the way I'd go.

    #27 3 years ago

    after rethinking it, the problem is you get a bulk 100 pack and it only comes with one type of bulb, wedge or bayonet, same thing with the 25 packs. Still even getting 4 packs of white, the price difference isn't that much.

    I really like the 149 kit, but what do you do with the orange and yellow bulbs? I understand they aren't supposed to be bright enough and you should use warm white. They even say that in the description for the warm white bulbs that are included. Purple I guess you could use for the inserts?

    #28 3 years ago

    The orange and yellow in twin 2835 ate bright enough to color match inserts.
    Issues with yellow are dimmer bulbs, 1 smd, are not bright enough.

    Your over thinking this. The differencrs are
    Buy a game kit, only available in 1 smd at $150 to $200,
    Layout your game completely. Spend $90 to $110.
    Buy a Master Kit or Bulk, sell the excess in an ad, spend $100-$110.

    Buy the cheaper, not tecommended, all white 200 bulk $59

    Keep incandescent, free.

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