(Topic ID: 29684)

FS: LED OCD - Eliminate LED flicker/strobe/ghost - Control brightness

By herg

11 years ago


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    #629 9 years ago

    I hadn't seen this mentioned anywhere in the post, so I thought I'd ask. (First post on the forum, and it's a question already. Whew.)

    Anyone use this is 3rd Party power boards on WPC games? (PinLED, others..)

    Edit: Nevermind, saw one mentioning Rottendog's board, so I guess we're good. Was asking because the PinLED WPC driver board has extremely horrible ghosting/flickering with LEDs on TZ..

    1 year later
    #712 8 years ago

    Okay, question for you advanced guys..

    My OCD finally came in, and on my game, I'm leaving visible lights (pop bumpers, comdom'd lights) as incandescent.

    However, in the software, when I set these lights to '1', the Incandescent setting, they are still dimmer and delayed moreso than without the OCD.

    Before I made changes to the setting #1 (the 'Incandescent' setting) and changed Min to '0', max to '100', and evenly distrubets the values in between, that helped, but there's still a delay. Was wondering if this is the best for Incandescents, or if it was possible to enable 'passthrough' for these lights. (When enabling / disabling passthrough, I can see a difference on how the incandescent's are lit up.)

    Thanks!
    -Me.

    #714 8 years ago
    Quoted from herg:

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but your order was placed on Friday 10/30, and today is Monday 11/2.

    Yeah, apologies - I see how that can be taken the wrong way - I wasn't implying it took long at all. Rather, it was sitting at my PO all day, because out mail carrier broke down - the fill-in guy drove up tonight around 8pm to deliver all mail, and the OCD was in there. Sorry, didn't mean to ruffle feathers; wasn't my intent.

    Quoted from herg:

    The only way to make incandescents light up as fast with the faster scan rate of the lamp matrix as they do without the OCD is to set the ramp to all 100s. Even then, they might not light up as quickly due to the delay of transistors. The delay will be a higher percentage of each timeslot.
    You can try to make the incandenscents fit in, but LED OCD is optimized for LEDs, and incandescents will likely suffer a bit.
    Passthrough is brighter because it is simply passing the input signals straight through to the outputs. Due to the matrix, there is no way to do this only for certain lamps.

    Okay, so pretty much, that's how it is. I can live with it, just was wanting (hoping?) there was a faster reflex for the incandescents. For me, it's not about brightness - it's about look and feel. Hence, why the pop bumpers are staying incandescents.

    #716 8 years ago
    Quoted from beelzeboob:

    Herg's pretty OCD about shipping times. (Did you catch what I did there?)

    Yeah! To expand on that, I wasn't expecting to receive it and the GI board until later this week. However, last night I was pleased as punch when the usps site said I'd get it today - a day home from the office. Just my luck then, when the mail didn't arrive at 10am like usual.. Instead st 730 - 8pm.. I was only able to get the OCD in, software installed, to mess with it for a few minutes before having to call it a day. I still have to get the GI in now...!

    #721 8 years ago
    Quoted from beelzeboob:

    Enjoy. You'll be lucky you have only 2 machines in your collection, because once you get one of these, you get them for every machine.

    Oy - I'm not too worried about that, all in all. The only reason it took me so long to get it for my TZ is because the TZ was/is a really expensive restore, and I had to get a LOT of other things for it.. So, since the OCDs were seen as finishing touches, they came up near the end of the restore. However, when getting another game, it won't have such a huge parts need, so.. I can drop the buck and a quarter for an LED OCD without issue.

    Quoted from herg:

    Same here. I was on edge when I read it, and took the worst from it. I had just finished packing orders for the day, including going back to the basement a second time to pack an order that came in after I had finished for the day. Sorry I snapped.

    Not needed, and no harm done. I was worried I really pissed you off, and that sure as heck wasn't my intent.

    Quoted from herg:

    Well, kinda. You can still change the ramp shape to try to get better results.
    Brightness, yeah, that's how it is. At least if it's a lamp that's lit steady and B8 is set for 100%, that's the brightest incandescents can light with the faster timing. If it's turning on too gradually, you can sharpen the ramp.
    Instead of the default:
    30 40 50 60 70 80 84 84
    I think you've set it to:
    0 13 26 40 53 66 80 100
    That means at the intermediate values you have it set lower than the default. When the lamps are blinking, they will be getting less average power and take longer to glow on. BTW, B1 is not the lowest value. B0 is always 0%

    AH! I wasn't aware there was a 'B0'! Thanks for that!

    Quoted from herg:

    so you can use something higher for B1. You can also check the Advanced box and manually set B2-B7 to shape the ramp rather than letting it automatically set them linearly.
    Setting them too high can cause them to stay on too long when turning off, and 100% on B8 might cause ghosting on other inserts, so it can be very tricky to deal with them.
    [... snip! ...]

    Thanks for those, I'll give them a try. I did the 'advanced' and modified my ramp to be linear - but having thought that B1 was the lowest, started that at 0. At that setting, anyone that didn't have a non-OCD's game to compare against really could NOT tell a difference, unless they were very observant in patterns. (Or, was comparing an incandescent to an LED on the same game under similar inserts.) You can most notice it in the difference when you enter / exit the passive mode, which now I know is expected.

    Quoted from herg:

    You've also got me thinking about things a bit more, and I'm wondering if a different scheme might work better for incandescents. It would require new firmware, but I could keep the ramping for LEDs while only using B0 and B8 if a profile is set as incandescent mode. That would minimize the latency for on/off transitions, and leave the fading up the bulbs themselves.

    If you need a beta-tester, feel free to let me know.
    However, have an odd question - these 'B' values (B0-B7) - are these used in the OCD only? Or are they based on the input from the power driver board? Specifically, some newer games (like CV) dim lights. Older ones (like my TZ) only do it when the game's in power-save mode. Are these 'B' values based on that 'dimming' by the power board? Or are they only used in OCD for the ramp-up and ramp-down?

    --Mike

    #723 8 years ago

    Good to know then, thanks!

    #725 8 years ago
    Quoted from herg:

    I had a bit of time to myself this evening, and got this working. I really can't tell a difference on my game, but I have a chip ready to send to Coyote to try.

    Awesome, be interested in trying it out. I CAN burn chips, if that's any easier and cheaper..!

    5 years later
    #785 3 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    Got it. It looks like it is the exact same one for the Tron Pro.
    So, basically, what you are saying is I’m going to end up getting this for my TZ, TAF, and BSD as well? I hadn’t noticed any flicker with those, but I’ve not really been lookin for it. The flicker is off the chain on Shrek.

    For the record, it's not necessarily ONLY for the flicker, but - as I think other people have stated - it also help with the HARSH "on" and "off" of LEDs. (The sharp warm-up and cool-down of the light being emitted.)

    #795 3 years ago
    Quoted from qbass187:

    I’ve been reading through this thread and I’m a little confused as to what the difference was between the LEDOCD board & the GI OCD board... I’m thinking of picking some up for the LED ghosting in my TZ & CFTBL pins but I’m not sure which of the 2 (or both) will do what I need.
    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks!!

    LEDOCD - handles Insert and controlled lamps.
    GIOCD - handles GI lamps.

    If your budget is limited, get LEDOCD first. If not, get both.

    #802 3 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    I'm confused on this point as well, where do you get the GI board? I'm mostly concerned with the inserts, not the GI...but frankly there are some games where the GI is almost as important as the inserts when it comes to flicker. Which one of these controls flashers (not that that would really matter for flicker...just curious)?

    The GI board should be listed on the same site, it's made by herg , along with the the other boards.

    You CAN get them in any order you want, if you can't get both at once. I think that despite GI effects, you get more immediate notice and like with the Controlled Lighting one (LEDOCD), as those are guaranteed to be blinking on and off as you play. The GI, if you already have LEDs in, and the strobing bothers you, you can turn GI Dimming 'Off' (note: on WPC machines. Not talking about others) until you can get the GI board.

    Edit to add: Yes, I live by these boards - I can not STAND the harsh on-off of LEDs, and my TZ needed these.

    #816 3 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    jodester and zukboy2002 , please review the posts over the last ten days in this thread and let’s discuss. Thanks!

    Not sure what you want to discuss, but herg stated it earlier in this thread, I believe, as well as on his site -

    Non-Ghosting LEDs have some additional circuitry (capacitors, resistors,mix of both) that help eliminate the flicker and 'ghosting'.

    The circuitry tries to minimize pulses in the voltage going to the LED unit.

    However, the way you 'dim' LEDs is not by adjusting voltage, but PWM - pulse-width modulation - which is giving the LED pulses of current to turn on and off really fast. Very, VERY fast. Your eye then doesn't see the strobing, but the LED diming and brightening.

    The OCD family of products, to achieve an incandescent-like burn-up and cool-down on the LEDs, uses PWM.

    Now, if you recall what I just mentioned, the non-ghosting LEDs try to MINIMIZE pulsing, PWM - so, they are trying to UNDO what the OCD boards are TYING to do.

    So, to summarize? USE NORMAL LEDs. Do NOT use non-ghosting.

    I admit, using the term "non non-ghosting" or "non anti-ghosting" is really effin' confusing. Don't use double-negatives.

    Ahem. There.

    #817 3 years ago

    As a followup - rereading my post, I sound like a dick. That wasn't intended, honest.

    #819 3 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    You didn’t sound like a Dick at all. The more broken down you can make this the better. This was an area of pinball I knew close to zero about till I posted in this thread.

    Thanks, Unrelated, ex-wife's family came over, despite the pandemic and all, and I was stressed yesterday.

    #823 3 years ago
    Quoted from pinballinreno:

    changed the delay to 3 (slightly faster).

    I told Herg about this a long time ago, but the one issue I have with the OCD dimming is that it SEEMS linear.

    i.e. If the brightness is going from 100 to 0 (on to off), the ramp up is even - after a quarter of the delay it'll be down to 75% brightness, then halfway, 50%, then three-quarters, 25% brightness, and so on. However, actual incandescent bulbs do not work that way - it's a logarithmic build-up/drop off. (i.e. when cooling down, the bulb will drop from 100% to 50% in the first quarter as the speed of dropoff slows. (*)

    However, I'm being so VERY anal in this, that it's not really worth the amount of time program in - what it dos now is 100% more than acceptable.

    (*) - The only reason I know this is because when I work on older, incandescent railroad signals, I have to have a luminosity tester. Once a year I have to record the 'on time' and 'off time' of all incandescent bulbs, to verify that a bulb's burnup isn't taking too long in case a signal drops (goes to red) quickly - the engineer needs to see the red light ASAP. The only way to fix this - if a bulb fails (which it can and has) is to either bump up the voltage, replace the mirror, or replace the bulb with a higher wattage one. P. I. T. A.

    #825 3 years ago
    Quoted from herg:

    I tried to address this by allowing you to set the mapping from a brightness level to a PWM duty cycle. In the software, you can set B1 (12.5%) to a PWM that does not equal 12.5%. You can shape the ramp. Granted, I didn't give you separate ramp up / ramp down settings.
    Early firmware versions would simply step from one brightness (B*) level to another. In an attempt to make things even smoother, the newer (like last 3 years, or so) does an interpolation between two brightness levels. While you're setting the PWM for 8 brightness levels, internally, there are 64 levels that it steps between, and how many steps get taken each lamp refresh cycle are controlled by the delay value.
    Now, why don't I just set the ramp to the perfect incandescent logarithmic curve? I don't really have enough experience to know what that is, but even if I did, different LED lamps react to PWM duty cycles differently. Start adding in things like locations with dual lamps, non-ghosting bulbs, LED strips, etc., and I decided that allowing people flexibility to set this if they wanted, while setting the defaults to something that looked good to me, was the best way to go about it.

    Oh, I understand. And aren't complaining. Just stating. I think my boards are the early versions that don't do the ramp-up. But even with that, my boards do the job, and do it well.

    #827 3 years ago
    Quoted from beelzeboob:

    See...NOW you sound like a dick.
    Hope all is well with you...this COVID shit sure can crap on your day.

    HAH! *YOU* haven't met my ex-inlaws. (Hell, for that matter, *I* haven't ever wanted to see my ex-inaws again, either.)

    #829 3 years ago
    Quoted from PinRob:

    What the hell were they doing coming over in the first place?

    Heh. Long story, not suitable here.

    #831 3 years ago
    Quoted from herg:

    All OCD boards have had the configurable ramp since they were first released.

    Correction - I was meaning the 64-steps rampup.

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