(Topic ID: 1126)

LEDs - All you wanted to know

By Brokedad

12 years ago


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  • 150 posts
  • 78 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by Cypress
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    There are 150 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 3.
    #101 9 years ago
    Quoted from PinDescabarian:

    Sorry. Incandescent light that has been swopped with an LED.

    There may be a little warming, but they should not be hot unless you got one of the super bright LEDs like the Ultra series from Cointaker. They warn Ultras do indeed get hot as they pull the same voltage a filament bulb does. I suspect there's a scaling heat factor the brighter the LED is.

    #102 9 years ago

    I posted this in another thread about LEDs vs incandescents but maybe its worth repeating here :

    A year ago I bought 4 LEDs at the York White Rose show from Cointaker as a test. They were being sold for .50ea and must have been the 170 wide cool whites, flat top globe. Color was a florescent bluish white. I did not like the way they changed the look in my Flash. This year at the show I bought some others as a test, $1ea, and they turned out to be bluish also but not quite as much. They were white retro's but apparently the cool whites.
    Since I didn't like the look of either in my Flash, I checked out Cointaker's site and decided to order 1 each of the following for a test:

    44/47 WARM WHITE FROSTED $0.79

    PREMIUM 44/47 FROSTED WARM WHITE $1.59

    44/47 WARM WHITE 170 Degree/Wide $0.59

    44/47 WARM WHITE RETRO $1.29

    The warm white(WW) frosted and premium WW frosted appeared to be nearly identical. Both were a whiter white and had a 1" white halo on the mounting surface around the bulb. All were tested behind my back glass.

    The WW 170 (clear flat top globe) left a 1" shadow around the bulb on the mounting surface. A very "clear" color but just slightly brighter than a incandescent 44.

    The WW Retro, clear globe, was almost incandescent in color, no discernible bright halo or shadow, brighter than a 44

    FWIW, the incandescent 44s and 47s also leave a halo around the bulb on the mounting surface.

    I still have to test them at various points on the playfield but from the above test, it seems that the WW Retro's are the best choice to brighten the game somewhat and reduce heat without changing the overall look. I suspect that they will look good elsewhere so I plan on ordering more. The cool whites should not be used unless you are trying to change the overall look of your game.

    #103 9 years ago
    Quoted from FirebrandX:

    There may be a little warming, but they should not be hot unless you got one of the super bright LEDs like the Ultra series from Cointaker. They warn Ultras do indeed get hot as they pull the same voltage a filament bulb does. I suspect there's a scaling heat factor the brighter the LED is.

    It is a single LED On X-Men LE that lights Magneto (out in front). Not sure the brand. The LED came with the game and was swopped from another spot. That particular light shuts off when I open the coin door. My question is...is it safe for the game? I do not think it is hot enough to start a fire. Nothing seems to be melting or discoloring. ???? I guess I could swop in another LED. Does anyone have a suggestion?

    #104 9 years ago
    Quoted from PinDescabarian:

    It is a single LED On X-Men LE that lights Magneto (out in front). Not sure the brand. The LED came with the game and was swopped from another spot. That particular light shuts off when I open the coin door. My question is...is it safe for the game? I do not think it is hot enough to start a fire. Nothing seems to be melting or discoloring. ???? I guess I could swop in another LED. Does anyone have a suggestion?

    I'd need to see a picture of the LED and where it installs in the prop. If I recall, Stern uses LEDs by default in their machines, and they may even be supplied by Cointaker.

    #105 9 years ago
    Quoted from PinDescabarian:

    It is a single LED On X-Men LE that lights Magneto (out in front). Not sure the brand. The LED came with the game and was swopped from another spot. That particular light shuts off when I open the coin door. My question is...is it safe for the game? I do not think it is hot enough to start a fire. Nothing seems to be melting or discoloring. ???? I guess I could swop in another LED. Does anyone have a suggestion?

    This is a 12 Volt source, and a 12V LED is needed. A 6.3 will get very hot and eventually burn out.
    I stock a flat 7 SMD 12 Volt for this, and our Op-Max will be in, in 12 Volts. In the meantime, or as long as you like, use a 12V flasher bulb.
    Art
    cometpinball.

    #106 9 years ago
    Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

    This is a 12 Volt source, and a 12V LED is needed. A 6.3 will get very hot and eventually burn out.
    I stock a flat 7 SMD 12 Volt for this, and our Op-Max will be in, in 12 Volts. In the meantime, or as long as you like, use a 12V flasher bulb.
    Art
    cometpinball.

    Ouch, that certainly would explain his heat issue. Was it perhaps a 906 socket that he put a 555 into?

    #107 9 years ago

    Yes, I have done it too! Popped and smoked...a 555, will fit just fine, and there is no voltage rating.
    WOZ, uses 12V too in the spots...

    #108 9 years ago
    Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

    This is a 12 Volt source, and a 12V LED is needed. A 6.3 will get very hot and eventually burn out.
    I stock a flat 7 SMD 12 Volt for this, and our Op-Max will be in, in 12 Volts. In the meantime, or as long as you like, use a 12V flasher bulb.
    Art
    cometpinball.

    Thanks to all for the help!. So it will be fine till I get a 12 V? I will check out your web site. Is it cometpinball.com?

    #109 9 years ago

    I plan to change the bulbs in my '84 Bally 's backbox, I believe, they are better, because they not heat the glass...
    Anybody try the leds there? Because on the market there is a lot type of #555LED, I don't know, which looks like the original...
    Thanks!

    2 months later
    #110 8 years ago

    So, just for grins, and since I've not seen this info posted anywhere else, I decided to take some current draw measurements of the various LED types I had on hand to compare them to the normal incandescent bulbs. Watts were calculated using 6.3V as the voltage.

    Eiko 555 bulb: 1.5W
    Ablaze "Ghostbuster" single SMD LED (all styles): 0.94W
    Ablaze 4SMD LED: 1.03W
    Ablaze 3-LED: 0.59W
    Ablaze entry-level single LED (all types): 0.23W

    #111 8 years ago
    Quoted from neurokinetik:

    So, just for grins, and since I've not seen this info posted anywhere else, I decided to take some current draw measurements of the various LED types I had on hand to compare them to the normal incandescent bulbs. Watts were calculated using 6.3V as the voltage.
    Eiko 555 bulb: 1.5W
    Ablaze "Ghostbuster" single SMD LED (all styles): 0.94W
    Ablaze 4SMD LED: 1.03W
    Ablaze 3-LED: 0.59W
    Ablaze entry-level single LED (all types): 0.23W

    do you have any cointaker superbrights? i'd be curious to know what they're drawing.

    #112 8 years ago

    manufactures should post this info on their sites. joe

    #113 8 years ago
    Quoted from Crash:

    I don't know, still quite a bit of flicker in these. They are not designed for slow fading. Pinball Life $0.39 LEDs paired with LED OCD is really the ultimate solution.
    » YouTube video

    OK I’ve seen that video,and there's some camera trickery there.. speed of film or something I have a kit from coin taker and they look nothing like the flickering mess that’s shown in that video.. I'm sure the ocd board is nice and if I had 150.00 to throw away I might try one ,but non ghosting leds solve the problem just fine for me without the added expense of added hardware.

    #114 8 years ago
    Quoted from tonycip:

    OK I’ve seen that video,and there's some camera trickery there.. speed of film or something I have a kit from coin taker and they look nothing like the flickering mess that’s shown in that video.. I'm sure the ocd board is nice and if I had 150.00 to throw away I might try one ,but non ghosting leds solve the problem just fine for me without the added expense of added hardware.

    there's no trickery in the video. the default matrix runs at 60z, while LED OCD runs at 250hz. the default matrix also does flashing and dimming effects that even a non-ghosting LED is not going to be able to deal with properly.

    investing in an LED OCD board would be the opposite of throwing $150 away. its the best $150 i ever spent on my STTNG.

    #115 8 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    there's no trickery in the video. the default matrix runs at 60z, while LED OCD runs at 120hz. the default matrix also attempts to flashing and dimming that even a non-ghosting LED is not going to be able to deal with properly.
    investing in an LED OCD board would be the opposite of throwing $150 away.

    Sorry didn't mean to offend anyone. but all I have are non ghosting premiums and I see zero flickering in my TZ. so for me it would seem like a waste .I know the board does other cool stuff but that video seems a bit over-exaggerated don't you think?

    #116 8 years ago

    I think all games benefit from the OCD board, and some more then others.
    I think for some people, the increased cycle rate, is a huge help to their eyes,
    with LEDs. I think for others, 60hz is just fine.
    I dont find any one answer better then another. But you wont know until you try one!

    #117 8 years ago

    If by "that video", you mean the TZ one, the only "trickery" is that it is running in slow motion, and "Slow Motion" is printed directly on the bottom of the screen. That's really how it looks, it's just that human vision tends to smooth it out. It is not my intent to fool anyone, and I didn't even shoot or edit that video myself; a customer did. Some people's eyes see that flickering worse than others, but it's always there. BTW, I hate having to try to show what the boards can do using video. What really matters is what they look like in person.

    #118 8 years ago

    A while back I did some lux measurements of various LED's on the market. Most were brighter than incandescents viewed from the top, and mixed results from the side. The one that stood out as being closest in light output to incandescents were cointaker warm white frosted. Almost identical.

    I had a few of these laying around as spares, and when I got my stellar wars machine I used them to replace a some burned out bulbs under inserts. I honestly don't even remember which ones have LED's and which ones don't, and can't tell the difference from the top of the playfield. They're that close in performance, in the controlled lighting anyway.

    -8
    #119 8 years ago
    Quoted from herg:

    If by "that video", you mean the TZ one, the only "trickery" is that it is running in slow motion, and "Slow Motion" is printed directly on the bottom of the screen. That's really how it looks, it's just that human vision tends to smooth it out. It is not my intent to fool anyone, and I didn't even shoot or edit that video myself; a customer did. Some people's eyes see that flickering worse than others, but it's always there. BTW, I hate having to try to show what the boards can do using video. What really matters is what they look like in person.

    Oh thanks for clearing that up, it’s been a while since I seen that video but I know something wasn’t right. . Maybe you should fix it .. Your intent wasn’t to fool anyone, but you had me fooled for a min. and I’m sure it fools a lot of others who don’t know any better. I had to go turn on my TZ and check it out for myself. I thought I may need to buy that … I understand the need to show it that way .because if people seen the actual difference there not going to want to plunk down the 150.00. I mean if someone slowed it down even more you’re would be flickering too right? And yes “some people” can pick up the 60 Hz cycle, and it bothers them like sitting in front of their computer monitors or even fluorescence lighting, so let’s have a little truth in advertising. Maybe another disclaimer on the video like this is a slow motion dramatization of what is happening. If your eyes could actually see at this speed.. I’m sure your product has some merit and people seem to like it so that’s great. Its just that video is like a parlor tick and seems a bit well you know .

    10
    #120 8 years ago

    OK, I've waited an hour since reading your response, so I hope I can respond fairly now. Having my integrity questioned by someone based on their misinterpretation of a video really has me seeing red.

    Here's a bit of context concerning that video. I suggest you read it.
    http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/altans-informal-review-of-led-ocd#post-1193324

    I'm having trouble even typing a sentence to say this because every time I start, I feel like I'm going to lash out, and that's not what I want to do. There is nothing wrong with the video. Yes, if you slow it down enough, you would see flickering even with the OCD. It runs at 250Hz, though, compared to 62.5Hz stock. I'm not aware of anyone who can see flicker at 250Hz. I AM aware of a lot of people who can see the 62.5Hz flicker, though not to the extent that the video shows. Without slowing it down, however, you're only able to see what the camera sees, and that doesn't give an accurate portrayal, either.

    If anyone, even tonycip, buys one and decides it's not doing what it should, I will refund your money. This is not a grab for cash, and if you took the time to read some of the discussion on Pinside, I think you would see that. I have multiple repeat buyers who did not rely on a video to base their opinion on.

    #121 8 years ago
    Quoted from tonycip:

    Oh thanks for clearing that up, it’s been a while since I seen that video but I know something wasn’t right. . Maybe you should fix it .. Your intent wasn’t to fool anyone, but you had me fooled for a min. and I’m sure it fools a lot of others who don’t know any better.

    jesus wtf are you talking about? the video says right on it that it is a slow motion comparison. it is not billed as anything else. nobody is trying to fool anyone.

    because if people seen the actual difference there not going to want to plunk down the 150.00.

    you could not be more wrong. LED OCD is in my opinion the best mod available for games right now. the difference is huge, and the control it gives you is invaluable.

    I mean if someone slowed it down even more you’re would be flickering too right? And yes “some people” can pick up the 60 Hz cycle, and it bothers them like sitting in front of their computer monitors or even fluorescence lighting, so let’s have a little truth in advertising.

    i sincerely hope you come across a game with LED OCD in it some day because you will instantly be like "...oh .... now i get it ... man i wish i hadn't shot my mouth off without knowing anything about that product..."

    Its just that video is like a parlor tick and seems a bit well you know .

    you are so off base here man. i am not even affiliated in any way with the product (other than being a happy customer) and it's pissing me off. in no way has the product been misrepresented.

    edit: sorry for losing my temper - i hope it doesn't reflect poorly on herg or his excellent product.

    -4
    #122 8 years ago
    Quoted from herg:

    OK, I've waited an hour since reading your response, so I hope I can respond fairly now. Having my integrity questioned by someone based on their misinterpretation of a video really has me seeing red

    Ok - you feel better now? Take a deep breath.... nothing to get excited about... If you read what I wrote I said the video is misleading. And it can fool people into expecting to see results like that. Like I said I even had to take a double check to see myself. Pay attention I'll go slow..I DIDN'T SEE ANY FLICKERING ON MY TZ. SEE, THAT’S MY HONEST OPINION..Sorry If I came off a little edgy in my earlier post, but come on now, you’re a businessman. Learn to take a little criticism. No need to get all mad.
    I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to have an opinion on an open forum. You don’t have to agree. Or like it. Or send your friend pezpuck in to defend you. Who just happens to live in the same state. Now I think you’re maybe overstating that most people can see 62hz flicker. But whatever..You like long articles? Try this one:
    http://books.google.com/books?id=kPyyBAomC4cC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=can+people+see+62hz+flicker&source=bl&ots=_jmT_Rxqy3&sig=2V1VlQbAJdkc6Em-qEzOXCCAXj8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uEACU6bXN-PSyAGV84HwDg&ved=0CGoQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=can%20people%20see%2062hz%20flicker&f=false
    I believe it says 90% of people can’t see 62hz flicker. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.
    Let’s summarize - I feel the video is misleading, and If I need to read 3 pages to figure out that it’s not, guess what? It’s misleading. People throw that video around in every led thread and it should be known that you’re not going to see that kind of improvement. And if you don’t want to fool anybody like you said, then there’s nothing to get mad about. You should want people to know that, right? Well, that’s all I got to say about that. Good luck in your endeavors and I'm glad people are enjoying your product

    #123 8 years ago
    Quoted from tonycip:

    Ok - you feel better now? Take a deep breath.... nothing to get excited about... If you read what I wrote I said the video is misleading. And it can fool people into expecting to see results like that.

    you could not be more wrong.

    Or send your friend pezpuck in to defend you. Who just happens to live in the same state.

    wrong again. i've never met Herg or spoken to him ever in my life. i bought LED OCD from his website and am thrilled with the results. that's the extent of our association.

    Now I think you’re maybe overstating that most people can see 62hz flicker. But whatever..

    i have no idea what percentage can notice the difference or not but the difference is night and day to me and many others.

    I believe it says 90% of people can’t see 62hz flicker.

    if it does say that it is flat wrong.

    I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

    if you were sorry you wouldn't continue posting your uninformed garbage.

    Let’s summarize - I feel the video is misleading

    it is objectively not misleading.

    , and If I need to read 3 pages to figure out that it’s not, guess what? It’s misleading.

    or you're unusually thick.

    People throw that video around in every led thread and it should be known that you’re not going to see that kind of improvement.

    i don't even know where to begin. the video illustrates exactly what the product does. there's no trickery. you are being really really weird.

    #124 8 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    you could not be more wrong.
    wrong again. i've never met Herg or spoken to him ever in my life. i bought LED OCD from his website and am thrilled with the results. that's the extent of our association.
    i have no idea what percentage can notice the difference or not but the difference is night and day to me and many others.
    if it does say that it is flat wrong.
    if you were sorry you wouldn't continue posting your uninformed garbage.
    it is objectively not misleading.
    or you're unusually thick.
    i don't even know where to begin. the video illustrates exactly what the product does. there's no trickery. you are being really really weird.

    well thats your opinion ..see not mad at all ,and next youll be telling me you and most people can hear a dog whistle too .. good for you!

    #125 8 years ago
    Quoted from tonycip:

    well thats your opinion ..see not mad at all ,and next youll be telling me you and most people can hear a dog whistle too .. good for you!

    Wait.....Dogs can't whistle....

    #126 8 years ago
    Quoted from 0geist0:

    Wait.....Dogs can't whistle....

    lol exactly...

    #127 8 years ago

    Here are some pretty cool LED Pop bumper caps (LED rings) that do a much better job of illumination than a single bulb. They illuminate both upward into the cap and downward onto the play field. Also they have adjustable brightness.

    Photo Feb 17, 10 16 13 AM.jpgPhoto Feb 01, 4 07 04 PM.jpg

    #128 8 years ago

    Alright, where did you get those. My FH wants some too.

    #129 8 years ago

    They are available at Pinballcenter.eu, and will be available, in a new form possibly, from cometpinball.com in approx 60 days.
    Art

    #130 8 years ago

    I'll wait for yours Art.

    #131 8 years ago

    I am trying to make them with an inline control in RGB....One piece....Any color, any brightness, and hopefully some
    built in modes....

    Art

    #132 8 years ago

    Those are really cool

    #133 8 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    do you have any cointaker superbrights? i'd be curious to know what they're drawing.

    Not at this time. I was using the sample pack of 555 replacements from Pinballlife. I could ask around though, and see if any of my local friends have any I could borrow and test. It's nice information to have.

    #134 8 years ago
    Quoted from FrankJ:

    Alright, where did you get those. My FH wants some too.

    Actually they are available from me right now, via Pinball Life. Here is the Link. $14.95

    http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=3336

    #135 8 years ago

    Here is a picture of a blue cap with ordinary bulb vs. my LED ring, also in a blue cap.

    Photo Feb 01, 1 33 11 PM.jpg

    #136 8 years ago
    Quoted from herg:

    I hate having to try to show what the boards can do using video. What really matters is what they look like in person.

    Almost anything involving lighting is terrible to try and document frankly. It's just not something easy to capture, in still frame or video. Hell I even hate seeing pictures of my translites, and those are simple backlit films. They never look like real life in photos.

    Everyone has to remember that the framerate of the camera and the cycles of the LEDs can cause a lot of havoc with the final result. Think about how many videos you've seen where the DMD is "rolling" even though to the naked eye it appears to do no such thing. The refresh rate just plays tricks.

    I bet the Britecaps above this post look way different in person, that blue is going to look blue, not white for instance.

    Anyways Herg, I hope to try your product myself some day, love what you're doing, and I hear your frustration about documenting it.

    #137 8 years ago

    great info here thanks everyone

    #138 8 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    i sincerely hope you come across a game with LED OCD in it some day because you will instantly be like "...oh .... now i get it ... man i wish i hadn't shot my mouth off without knowing anything about that product..."

    I agree with this point. People recognize issues with LEDs in the following order: brightness, ghosting, bulb fade, and flicker. Flicker is something that is more noticeable in playfield GI when the ball zips around, but fact is most people don't acknowledge 60hz flicker issues with a television either, so I'm not at all surprised that most people don't notice flickering with LEDs. Thus, without a point of reference most people don't mind a game with LEDs and no OCD board.

    At the most recent Southern Pinball Festival we had 2 SM's with LEDS, one with LED OCD and one without. Most people only had vague knowledge of the OCD board, so when I explained that one game had the OCD and one didn't, everyone immediately acknowledged the visual improvements it made, and their opinions vastly improved of the product... even the EM guys.

    #139 8 years ago
    Quoted from tonycip:

    Sorry didn't mean to offend anyone. but all I have are non ghosting premiums and I see zero flickering in my TZ. so for me it would seem like a waste .I know the board does other cool stuff but that video seems a bit over-exaggerated don't you think?

    By the way regardless of premium non-ghosting bulbs or not they would "flicker" or not the same. The non-ghosting bulb doesn't control this. You just simply can't see it, like most. It also helps to turn off A25 setting in bally/williams games f or GI flickering

    #140 8 years ago
    Quoted from jrivelli:

    It also helps to turn off A25 setting in bally/williams games f or GI flickering

    i didnt know that! thanks!

    #141 8 years ago
    Quoted from jrivelli:

    It also helps to turn off A25 setting in bally/williams games f or GI flickering

    Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

    i didnt know that! thanks!

    Yeah, that's pretty much a necessity on WPC games, especially ones that do a lot of GI dimming.

    #142 8 years ago

    I will give it a shot!

    #143 8 years ago
    Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

    I will give it a shot!

    Oh dang, if you hadn't done that before it will make 100x difference. It is a nightmare to have that one with LEDs in a lot of WPC games

    #144 8 years ago
    Quoted from jrivelli:

    Oh dang, if you hadn't done that before it will make 100x difference. It is a nightmare to have that one with LEDs in a lot of WPC games

    yup.

    #145 8 years ago
    Quoted from HHaase:

    A while back I did some lux measurements of various LED's on the market. Most were brighter than incandescents viewed from the top, and mixed results from the side. The one that stood out as being closest in light output to incandescents were cointaker warm white frosted. Almost identical.

    I noticed this myself when I was experimenting with different lighting schemes from a grab-bag of Cointaker LEDs. Basically if you want the "retro" look, Frosted Premium Warm Whites are the way to go.

    BTW, I once asked Melissa the relative strength of each LED they offer, and she gave me this general guideline:

    The ultras are a full 1 watt led bulb
    The supers are about 3 times brighter than an incandescent
    The 2 leds are about 2 times as bright as an incandescent.
    The mini's are pretty much along the same brightness as an incandescent

    5 months later
    #146 8 years ago

    Thank you for this thread. I am colour matching my red and blue chevron (arrows) on my F-14. You suggest 3 LED for larger inserts and single LED for smaller. My question is; what is considered a large insert and what is considered a small insert?

    4 years later
    #147 4 years ago

    Just wondering how much the LED technology has advanced and the problems they've solved since this "all you need to know" was posted 8 yrs ago. We need someone to give us an update on LEDs.

    3 weeks later
    #148 3 years ago

    I had the same thought. From my experience upgrading The Machine: Bride of Pinbot with LED's from Comet Pinball, I'd say the technology has advanced enormously, so much so that almost all of this thread may be obsolete. I'm really glad I hadn't read this thread before my upgrade or I might never have started, and LED's make an enormous difference visually. There's a little trial and error and you'll buy some bulbs you won't end up using, but the bulbs aren't really that expensive.

    I'm not dissing the previous posts, I'm sure one of the reasons the technology has advanced is feedback from these early adopters, but there's not much 8-year-old information on technology that's still current. Having this thread is such a prominent position is going to confuse people new to the technology.

    #149 3 years ago

    Bump for some enlightenment. Come on you mod monsters give us the current state of the art led info. I never got them early on for two reasons mainly: Ghosting everyone had this problem it appears; bulbs were to bright overall and didn't seem to fit well in the older pins with 44's and 47's bayonets.

    4 weeks later
    #150 3 years ago

    Hi,

    I am planning a LED upgrade to my Doctor Who pinball machine.
    I would like to ask for help in selecting the best option from the following LED types:
    http://www.pinball.center/en/shop/noflix-pinball-leds/wedge-base-t10/superflux/400/t10-noflix-led-warm-white-superflux?c=2917
    https://cointaker.com/products/555-premium-frosted
    https://cointaker.com/products/555-premium-super

    - What type would you recommend from these for behind the backglass?
    - What type would you recommend from these for the playfield inserts?
    - What type would you recommend from these for general illumination on the playfield?
    - Would you change the flash-type bulbs, if yes, what would be your recommendation?

    Thank you for your help in advance.

    There are 150 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 3.

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