Every lamp in a row turns on a second lamp in next column.

Anyone?

#3 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

I tried switching to none ghosting led's in both the JACK and ship inserts but the problem remains.

#4 6 years ago

MGP

mgpasman

Pinside member

Does the problem also occur with normal bulbs? Look at the lamp matrix, probably you can identify the problem to all lamps in 1 row or column, indicating a possible short (or diode missing).

Had the same problem in my Airborne.

#5 6 years ago

QRK

Deez

Pinside+ Frequent

12y 139K 6,785 13

Diodes typically fail open not shorted. I suspect you probably created a short while installing the LEDS. Just run along wires until you find the short.

#6 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Quoted from mgpasman:
Does the problem also occur with normal bulbs? Look at the lamp matrix, probably you can identify the problem to all lamps in 1 row or column, indicating a possible short (or diode missing).
Had the same problem in my Airborne.

Good, idea, I'll try with regular bulbs also.

Quoted from Deez:
Diodes typically fail open not shorted. I suspect you probably created a short while installing the LEDS. Just run along wires until you find the short.

Okay, I'll do a double check when I get home.

#7 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Okay, so I checked.
Looks like Q40 and Q41 are shorted somehow. is this fixable on the driver board only or is it possible to find a short under the playfield?
20170605_173054-01.jpeg

#8 6 years ago

KIM

Pin_-_K

KIMBALL's PINBALL's

Lakeside, TX

11y 66,350 665 31

Yes, it's fixable but those MOS-FETS are getting expensive ($8-$12 ea).
IIRC they are a 5 or 6 legged device.
Had the same issue on a SM & needed to replace 3 of them.
Check Great Plains Electronics or Marco, not sure if Ed carries them anymore as they were at "End Of Life" status more then a few year's ago.

#9 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Quoted from Pin_-_K:
Yes, it's fixable but those MOS-FETS are getting expensive ($8-$12 ea).
IIRC they are a 5 or 6 legged device.
Had the same issue on a SM & needed to replace 3 of them.
Check Great Plains Electronics or Marco, not sure if Ed carries them anymore as they were at "End Of Life" status more then a few year's ago.

I see, so it's defiantly the mosfets then?

#10 6 years ago

HLT

herg

OP
Quoted from webdiddy:
I see, so it's defiantly the mosfets then?

No. Actually, I would say it's more likely to be something under the playfield.

You can use test leads and a spare bulb along with the lamp test menus to test the board separate from the playfield wiring. Basically, connect one test lead from a column pin that you want to test to one side of a bulb. Another test lead from the row you want to test to the other side of the bulb. You can then run through lamp test to see if it lights only when it should or if it also lights when different lamp locations are selected.

#11 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Quoted from herg:
No. Actually, I would say it's more likely to be something under the playfield.
You can use test leads and a spare bulb along with the lamp test menus to test the board separate from the playfield wiring. Basically, connect one test lead from a column pin that you want to test to one side of a bulb. Another test lead from the row you want to test to the other side of the bulb. You can then run through lamp test to see if it lights only when it should or if it also lights when different lamp locations are selected.

Great tip.
Checking under the playfield, I'm guessing I should be looking for shorted diodes, does something like this occur only from diodes on lamps? Or does it include switches also?

#12 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Could something like this cause a problem like this?

The prongs in the socket are pushing up against each other on one side, I'm guessing the led was not inserted correctly.
20170605_212402.jpg

#13 6 years ago

HLT

herg

OP
Quoted from webdiddy:
does something like this occur only from diodes on lamps? Or does it include switches also?

It does not include switches. Well, not unless they are shorted to the lamps, that is. It is not limited to the diodes, though. It could be as simple as two lamp row wires shorted together.

OP
Quoted from webdiddy:
Could something like this cause a problem like this?

No. That would only make the socket to lamp connection be less reliable. Worst case, that lamp wouldn't light.

#14 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Quoted from herg:
It does not include switches. Well, not unless they are shorted to the lamps, that is. It is not limited to the diodes, though. It could be as simple as two lamp row wires shorted together.

No. That would only make the socket to lamp connection be less reliable. Worst case, that lamp wouldn't light.

Okay, good to know.
Any tips on what to keep out an eye for?

#15 6 years ago

YZF

yzfguy

Pinside+ Frequent

12y 146K 11,175 7

OP
Quoted from webdiddy:
Okay, good to know.
Any tips on what to keep out an eye for?

Never trust a guy wearing a pinky ring.

#16 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Quoted from yzfguy:
Never trust a guy wearing a pinky ring.

Don't know if I can trust your advice, for all I know you could be wearing one.

#17 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Anything I should be measuring with my multimeter to find the culprit?

#18 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

I took a look a J12 and the only problem I can see there is the wire connecting to pin 12.
149674123580271350576 (resized).jpg

#19 6 years ago

HLT

herg

OP
Quoted from webdiddy:
Anything I should be measuring with my multimeter to find the culprit?

I suggest doing the "single lamp with test leads" test first to narrow the problem to either a wiring or a board problem.

OP
Quoted from webdiddy:
I took a look a J12 and the only problem I can see there is the wire connecting to pin 12.

That is a nasty looking connection, but it would be unrelated to the problem you are describing.

#20 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Quoted from herg:
I suggest doing the "single lamp with test leads" test first to narrow the problem to either a wiring or a board problem.

That is a nasty looking connection, but it would be unrelated to the problem you are describing.

I will get to doing the "single lamp with test leads" but more as an last resort because I'm nervous of shorting anything else and do further damage.

I used my multimeter and checked the continuity between pin 9 & 10 on the connecter and heard a beep, this was however expected.
The connector was connected to the board wile testing but the machine was of. Should I have done the test with the connector disconnected to rule out the mosfets or doesn't it matter?

Post last edited 6 years ago.

#21 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

So I just measured the continuity pin 9 & 10 on the connector of the board and they are shorted some how, I also measured the pins on the board and they do not give me a beep so the mosfets should be good right?

This must mean that I have a short on the wiring maybe? All the diodes sits inside the the lamp sockets on most sterns so I can't imagine a way that a diode could be shorting, unless one is broken right? in that case how do I test for that?

#22 6 years ago

QRK

Deez

Pinside+ Frequent

12y 139K 6,785 13

OP
Quoted from webdiddy:
So I just measured the continuity pin 9 & 8 on the connector of the board and they are shorted some how

Do an all light on test and see if any of your LEDs in those two rows don't light. It sounds like you might have short in one of the LEDS. If they all light, I would just trace the wiring of each row and examine the connections closely till you find the short. It takes a little brute force but you'll find it.

#23 6 years ago

HLT

herg

OP
Quoted from webdiddy:
So I just measured the continuity pin 9 & 8 on the connector of the board and they are shorted some how, I also measured the pins on the board and they do not give me a beep so the mosfets should be good right?
This must mean that I have a short on the wiring maybe? All the diodes sits inside the the lamp sockets on most sterns so I can't imagine a way that a diode could be shorting, unless one is broken right? in that case how do I test for that?

It does sound like that is the case. Any other causes, like an additional short between the gate pins of two transistors, are very unlikely.

Quoted from Deez:
Do an all light on test and see if any of your LEDs in those two rows don't light. It sounds like you might have short in one of the LEDS. If they all light, I would just trace the wiring of each row and examine the connections closely till you find the short. It takes a little brute force but you'll find it.

A single shorted lamp would not cause pins 8 and 9 of the connector to read short. Even two shorted lamps would still have the diodes between them. Still, this test is quick to run and will give you more info about the problem.

I would agree that the best way to find the short in this case is by examining the wires. Are there any mods installed that connect to playfield lights and might be incorrectly shorting the red wires? Are there any lamps on those two rows that don't use the plastic IDC lamp sockets like you show above?

#24 6 years ago

DOC

drsfmd

Pinside member

10y 76,550 3,156 108

Quoted from yzfguy:
Never trust a guy wearing a pinky ring.

I thought it was "never trust a left-handed dwarf"?

#25 6 years ago

MGP

mgpasman

Pinside member

You are not looking for a short in the diode, but just "one of the leads" to the ground (or to each other). In general you should first investigate all lamps on the same row/column, and be on the wary of lamps that are hidden. In my case, there was a lamp on a normal socket hidden inside a tower that was shorting out. That lamp itself was also not working. So start with a single lamp test of all lamps on the same row and column, and look for any lamps not working. Try to find them and see if they are causing a short.

#26 6 years ago

QRK

Deez

Pinside+ Frequent

12y 139K 6,785 13

Quoted from herg:
A single shorted lamp would not cause pins 8 and 9 of the connector to read short

Dang you're right.

#27 6 years ago

MGP

mgpasman

Pinside member

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/capcom-airborne-lamp-matrix-problems

For inspiration, see my thread on how I fixed it on my Airborne:

#28 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Quoted from herg:
It does sound like that is the case. Any other causes, like an additional short between the gate pins of two transistors, are very unlikely.

A single shorted lamp would not cause pins 8 and 9 of the connector to read short. Even two shorted lamps would still have the diodes between them. Still, this test is quick to run and will give you more info about the problem.
I would agree that the best way to find the short in this case is by examining the wires. Are there any mods installed that connect to playfield lights and might be incorrectly shorting the red wires? Are there any lamps on those two rows that don't use the plastic IDC lamp sockets like you show above?

No mods installed. The rows only consists off IDC sockets, that's right.
I'm looking at the wires but I am not able to see a break, I can confess I have not looked over every inch of those two wires as they go on for miles it feels like
Maybe I need to though.

#29 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Quoted from mgpasman:
You are not looking for a short in the diode, but just "one of the leads" to the ground (or to each other). In general you should first investigate all lamps on the same row/column, and be on the wary of lamps that are hidden. In my case, there was a lamp on a normal socket hidden inside a tower that was shorting out. That lamp itself was also not working. So start with a single lamp test of all lamps on the same row and column, and look for any lamps not working. Try to find them and see if they are causing a short.

No hidden lamps as far as I can tell. I have gone trough the single lamp test and only the lamps connected to pin 9 & 10 seams like they're shorted. I do have some regular ghosting on a couple of other lamps but I'm pretty sure they're not related to my problem.

#30 6 years ago

HLT

herg

Is it just the picture, or are the red wires actually faded? Maybe that's a clue. The insulation on pin 12 is cracked right at the connector, which makes it look like it's brittle. Is there possibly a stray strand of wire on the back side of the connector that's shorting between 8 and 9. It seems awfully coincidental that they're adjacent pins. Under the playfield, they wouldn't typically be sitting next to each other (allowing them to short) as often.

#31 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Quoted from herg:
Is it just the picture, or are the red wires actually faded? Maybe that's a clue. The insulation on pin 12 is cracked right at the connector, which makes it look like it's brittle. Is there possibly a stray strand of wire on the back side of the connector that's shorting between 8 and 9. It seems awfully coincidental that they're adjacent pins. Under the playfield, they wouldn't typically be sitting next to each other (allowing them to short) as often.

I took a good hard look at the connector and wasn't able to find any rogue strands of wire.

#32 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

I guess my only option left is to trace both wires inch by inch to look for a break. This is however not as easy as it sound, that would mean I have to cut every single cable tie attached to these wires.

Or is there another option?

#33 6 years ago

HLT

herg

Remove all the bulbs from those two rows to make sure they're not related? Post pictures of all of the lamp locations for others to inspect? Short of that, yeah, I think you're nearly to the point of painstakingly inspecting those wires.

#34 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Quoted from herg:
Remove all the bulbs from those two rows to make sure they're not related? Post pictures of all of the lamp locations for others to inspect? Short of that, yeah, I think you're nearly to the point of painstakingly inspecting those wires.

I'll remove the bulbs and take pictures as soon as I get home from work, keeping my finger crossed.

#35 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

I can't believe I didn't test this before but I just tested the continuity between pin 8 & 9 and the ground braid, and guess what, I got a beep. Not sure if this is a major discovery or not but I'm not sure what further testing I should do from here?

#36 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Hmmmm... That's strange, I started probing around a little with a lead connected to the ground braid (with machine off) and suddenly pin 9 & 10 stoped giving me beeps, never mind, I guess?

#37 6 years ago

HLT

herg

I think those are both clues that there the short is somewhere making contact with GND, but that contact is intermittent. Maybe wires are getting pinched somewhere, maybe they're rubbing a bracket, etc.

#38 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

To check if there was a break on either the pin 9 or 10 wires I moved the wire a couple of inches by pulling on it carefully all the way from the first lamp socket all the way to the connector, that would mean if there's a break on one of the wires it shouldn't be touching any more. I checked once again but I still get continuity.
20170608_200425 (resized).jpg

#39 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

herg any thoughts?

#40 6 years ago

HLT

herg

What about from the first lamp, continuing down the rest of the wire to the second, third, etc.?

You seem to have found that you have a short between the two row wires, sometimes also to GND. Definitely not always to GND since if that were the case, those rows would be locked on all the time. You have to find the short. There might be "tricks" that could help you find it, but likely you're just going to have to keep looking.

If it were a WPC game, where the lamp sockets have wires soldered to the lugs, I'd recommend disconnecting a part of the daisy-chain of wires. Here, though, it's two long wires that just get pressed into the IDC sockets. There's no good way to divide the problem without having to cut and splice wires.

#41 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Quoted from herg:
What about from the first lamp, continuing down the rest of the wire to the second, third, etc.?
You seem to have found that you have a short between the two row wires, sometimes also to GND. Definitely not always to GND since if that were the case, those rows would be locked on all the time. You have to find the short. There might be "tricks" that could help you find it, but likely you're just going to have to keep looking.
If it were a WPC game, where the lamp sockets have wires soldered to the lugs, I'd recommend disconnecting a part of the daisy-chain of wires. Here, though, it's two long wires that just get pressed into the IDC sockets. There's no good way to divide the problem without having to cut and splice wires.

I just got home and spent about one hour on pulling on one of the wires lamp to lamp making sure it was moved about and inch everywhere. It didn't help There's must be something obvious I'm missing here.

Once thing is for sure, the wires between pin 9 & 10 are crossed some how but I can not for the life of me understand how, I mean by moving one of the wires they should no long touch if there is a break on the wires, at least the shouldn't touch at the point of the break. This makes me believe that it must be something else crating a short between the wires.

#42 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

updated to a more accurate topic description

#43 6 years ago

MGP

mgpasman

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from webdiddy:
updated to a more accurate topic description

So, if you run lamp test of say "58" (J in JACK), does it light "66" (same column, next row) or "59" (same row, next column)?

#44 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Quoted from mgpasman:
So, if you run lamp test of say "58" (J in JACK), does it light "60" (same column, next row) or "59" (same row, next column)?

No, #58 (J) lights up #66, #59 lights up #67 and so on.

#45 6 years ago

MGP

mgpasman

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from webdiddy:
No, #58 (J) lights up #66, #59 lights up #67 and so on.

Then that would be: Every lamp in a column lights up a second lamp in the next row.

Is that true only for this row? And if you test #66, will #58 light as well? If not, that rules out a short in the wiring, and we would go back to electronics.

#46 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

Quoted from mgpasman:
Then that would be: Every lamp in a column lights up a second lamp in the next row.
Is that true only for this row? And if you test #66, will #58 light as well? If not, that rules out a short in the wiring, and we would go back to electronics.

Yes, the other way around is also true. #66 will light #58.

#47 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

I just realized I've been referring to pin 9 & 8 when it's actually pin 9 & 10, not that it really matter because the wires I've been checking on so on are the once connected to pin 9 & 10, I just been calling them 8 & 9 here

#48 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member

I just removed all the led's connected to both pin 9 & 10, I then proceeded to connecting a regular bulb to socket #58 and #66 to rule out that there's a problem with one of the led's but with no success.

#49 6 years ago

HLT

herg

With all the bulbs removed, does it still beep the meter?

#50 6 years ago

XXX

webdiddy

Pinside member