Ann Arbor, MI
My favorite part is when people are calling iceman a Stern hater.
(Topic ID: 224730)
You really had to go through the B66 LE thing like Ice and I did! Nib completely broken!! I don't tkink we completely got over that one,especially on the coat tails of our GBs needing new node boards also nib,got kinda rough-so-don't go too heavy on the Iceman,he's one cool cucumber
Quoted from CrazyLevi:My toaster is worth less than when I bought it new
That's probably because you cheaped out and bought the pro. Step yourself up to the Toast-A-Matic 3000 SLE and watch your value increase with every perfect toasting!
Let's not play the pin stock market. Used games should not cost more then NIB. If you like the way it looks and plays and you can afford the price then buy it. Play it for a while and sell it for an acceptable loss when you need the space. Then buy your new game and repeat the cycle. Welcome to pinball.
Quoted from TheLaw:My favorite part is when people are calling iceman a Stern hater.
Drunk poster? Fan of "MASSIVE TAX CUTS?" Hangover poster?
Yes to all!
Stern Hater? Naw. That dude will buy anything, and drunkenly bitch about anything.
Fair and balanced!
Quoted from jgentry:Are you sure people like you that rush to put a deposit down on every new released game are not the problem. God forbid you miss out on having a rare title that lots of people will want and that you can have and they can't.
JJP and POTC are the best, nah, I don't want that, I want this now, now I want this, squirrel, squirrel..... Can you start to see why stern and Spooky started taking non refundable deposits? If not please go stand in front of the mirror until it sinks in.
Yes I agree, I WAS "part of the problem"
The "non refundable" gig that Spooky is doing is another one and done. That won't go over well next time.
As for what i do in the future, there won't be any "non refundable" deposits made.
It's about treating your good customers right, that's all. Don't want to do it right, then F U.
If I am not giving them money, or they are not taking any from me, I am not getting ripped off. At least that's the way I think it works.
Quoted from epthegeek:I'm *fairly* sure this is just Joe doing what he thinks is best for his business. Letting you out of your POTCCE reservation probably just means he's got to find another buyer for that game; he's already committed to it with JJP. But, he'd rather maintain a good relationship with buyers than stand behind a "I'm stuck with this, so you're stuck with this" policy.
That was the expectation from Day one with Joe.
It's about the "relationship" he has with his customers that take priority first.
Btw, I don't hate Stern games obviously, I love the ones i got!
NB
It’s hump day Ice, crack open a cold one and enjoy the rest of the day. Stern and the rest of 2018’s Pinball manufactures/distros will continue to take people’s money that willingly throw it at them based on a few pics, or future whisper of a beloved theme. Same as it’s always been...or at least from right after Tron LE came out.
Forget about the X-Men LE “double your money” bit of course. lol
Quoted from NimblePin:Stern and the rest of 2018’s Pinball manufactures/distros will continue to take people’s money that willingly throw it at them based on a few pics, or future whisper of a beloved theme. Same as it’s always been...or at least from right after Tron LE came out. lol
Well hell, and all this time I thought it was Elvis Gold that got everybody on this LE dream theme kick.
<begin I'm going to sound mean, but...
I've said it before and I'll say it again, until people STOP putting money down for non-refundable deposits on games sight unseen, the LEs are going to continue to sell out and nothing will ever change. (why would it?
as far as the value of LEs going down in the secondary market, stern couldn't give a rat's @ss about this (they already got their cheddar from the initial sale. they don't see a dime of secondary sales
to the people that bought into the hype that was the BM66 SLE, I feel both sorry and not sorry for them at the same time. stern's been doing this for a while and to plunking down $15K to purchase a game sight unseen is just crazy and you've got no one to blame but yourselves. a sign on the wall should have been the fact that they doubled the number of these supposed super limited editions to take more money in. do I blame them? not one bit. they are a business and if you were a shareholder, you'd be tickled pink
but hey! look on the bright side, it's only been 2 years and they're still pumping out code updates. maybe before year 3, you'll see that v1.00 code
end stark raving mad post>
Quoted from o-din:Well hell, and all this time I thought it was Elvis Gold that got everybody on this LE dream theme kick.
Well, it sure as hell wasn’t Monopoly Platinum Edition. 
Quoted from NimblePin:It’s hump day Ice, crack open a cold one and enjoy the rest of the day. Stern and the rest of 2018’s Pinball manufactures/distros will continue to take people’s money that willingly throw it at them based on a few pics, or future whisper of a beloved theme. Same as it’s always been...or at least from right after Tron LE came out.
Forget about the X-Men LE “double your money” bit of course. lol
Feels good to get it off my chest NP!
I’ll be cracking open cold and chilies when I touch down in Vegas tonight
It’s the annual fantasy football drafts with my Dad whose turning 80 in Oct
Speaking of blowing $$$
Quoted from Whysnow:I am coming from
DPLE still available
GOTGLE still available and selling cheaper on secondary
SWLE > yup still available and selling cheap on secondary
AeroLE > lol
GBLE> yup lol
should I keep going?
Maiden LE will hit the same path in time...
You forgot WWELE
Quoted from BoJo:Plus Stern offers a premium which plays the same and you have plenty of time to wait and see before you buy. The LE is a gamble. Some you win and some you lose.
It's the the pro and premium that is overpriced so the LE follows suit. No reason the pro should cost this much when games like SM were under 4k NIB. When you look at what you get on the premium over the pro I just don't see the cost justification. At least when you consider what you get on the LE compared to the premium on a game like Maiden it's not that bad (mirror backglass, upgraded speakers and pf glass, inner cab decals, custom shooter rod, powder coated trim, foil decals, shaker, etc). Plus having a LE increases your Pinside status as you become a member of the big dick club which is priceless.
Now that I know you this is even funnier. Great points
Quoted from iceman44:Yes I agree, I WAS "part of the problem"
The "non refundable" gig that Spooky is doing is another one and done. That won't go over well next time.
As for what i do in the future, there won't be any "non refundable" deposits made.
It's about treating your good customers right, that's all. Don't want to do it right, then F U.
So you have a non refundable deposit with Spooky right now and you also have deposit with Joe for a POTC CE that you are moving to a different game. Doesn't sound like anything is really that different.
The bigger question is why do people keep sending money for a game that they do not even know for sure that they want.
What’s all the hoopla?
It’s just a couple grand...most of us make that every day or two
And if you can afford a premium, then what’s a few more grand for an le?
And honestly, if it’s a good game, what’s even a few more grand of flipper tax on top of that?
Star Trek Le is such a beautiful package...
I only go for Le's as I wanna be a part of the big dick club. 
Every LE sells out...every single one. To distributors...who have no choice but to buy them...they literally cannot say no. I could go into more detail but I think you get the point. As a distro, I'd take non refundable deposits too!
Quoted from iceman44:I give MAJOR props to JJP for letting the game speak for itself and at least some distributors doing the "deposit refund" if for whatever reason things don't work out.
Of course, Joe is a great Distro and gets it. I just rolled my $2k JJP POTCCE deposit over to another pin, could have gotten a FULL REFUND but wanted something else.
Stern is jamming these LE's down the Distro's throats and making them commit to buying a certain allotment.
So when they say, "Munsters will sell out on day one"
What they mean to say is SOME Distros have locked people in with "non refundable" deposits. But hey, you get to decide after seeing the reveal after 24 hours.
I don't blame them, I blame Stern and give them a big F U, as an LE buyer!!!
Let the M fing game speak for itself! And Distros need to quit selling to idiots that just want to flip the pin. That JIG IS UP. NO MAS.
So bottom line is I'll buy games from people in the future like Joe and Game Room Guys that don't need to hold your balls hostage.
If the game is good, so be it, if not then STERN needs to F ing EAT IT.
at the same time if you are buying a game you have never even seen in the first place. I would say you're setting yourself up with a dumbass move.
London
Quoted from CrazyLevi:"significantly" is a loaded word.
How much do you stand to lose on your average LE game? $500? $1000 at the most?
For most of the time I've been in pinball - before the rush of free-spending newbies - you'd lose that exact amount just by opening the box on ANY NIB game. It's only a recent phenomenon that buyers expect their NIB games to "hold their value," or even APPRECIATE.
If you don't want to lose any of that "new car" money, stop buying new games. I don't think losing $500 on a year old GOTLE constitutes a "significant" loss, but at this point we are seeing the bizarre phenomenon of people taking natural depreciation personally, as if it's some kind of insult. My toaster is worth less than when I bought it new, why wouldn't the same be true for your pinball machine?
I kinda of agree with the spirit of Ice's post but but also agree think you got it spot on Levi in that there is no gun pointing at anyones head; just be happy you don't have UK prices!
However; my LE Toaster has held value because it has crumpet multi-toast and LEDS.
IMG_0055 (resized).JPG
Quoted from TKDalumni:Every LE sells out...every single one. To distributors...who have no choice but to buy them...they literally cannot say no. I could go into more detail but I think you get the point. As a distro, I'd take non refundable deposits too!
are you sure about that I thought GOTG and Star Wars still had games you could buy?
Had to settle for Pre and add!!
Quoted from jgentry:So you have a non refundable deposit with Spooky right now and you also have deposit with Joe for a POTC CE that you are moving to a different game. Doesn't sound like anything is really that different.
The bigger question is why do people keep sending money for a game that they do not even know for sure that they want.
I have zero issue with Spooky and love the game, I’m saying I wouldn’t do it again but no regrets there
Right after Expo reveal I put a refundable $2k deposit down on POTCCE. I think the game looks great but a year later other pins came on my radar like IMDNLE, another decision I regret but it’s a great pin.
I’m going with the secondary market from now on
I hate the idea of Stern getting distros to lock in LEs with non refundable deposits.
I get it’s to shake out flippers like Kaneda who try and reserve 3 Munsters at different distros BUT
The guy has ONE pin and will never buy another one other than to flip. That creates false demand and drives up prices
A great loyal customer should NOT have to put down a F ing LE deposit. Use it for first timers and known flippers like Kaneda
Quoted from CaptainNeo:at the same time if you are buying a game you have never even seen in the first place. I would say you're setting yourself up with a dumbass move.
But I’ve never bought a shit pin I’ve regretted. Just the opposite
100% correct, nobody holding a gun to my head. That’s why I would buy from a Distro that isn’t holding the non refundable gun to my head
As for wise, dumbass, stupid, whatever, I would argue buying pinball machines for $9k plus is more of the latter and I def resemble that remark
Sana'a
With sterns I actually think a non refundable deposit is best, since without guys scoop up spots before they even see the game, then if it looks great, keep it and flip it, and if not just ditch their spots
With a non refundable deposit, it should give more actual people a chance to order the game rather than flippers since it will make speculation more risky
I'm done buying any new machine. I will wait to buy a machine that is just like new, with updated code already done, and probably some free mods as well.
My last NIB was SWLE and I was not impressed with the fact that it did not come standard with a shaker.
Just bought a Pinball Pimp TZ. Love that game.
Anyway, Stern is making money and I am happy for them. I don't see a reason to hate them for it, but they are not taking any more money from me until I play the game.
As for deposits - I don't understand why people think they can have a seller hold a product for them only to back out. You either want to buy something or you don't. Deposits should not be refundable unless the seller does not deliver the game. It is stupid to take someone's money in anticipation of selling it only to have the buyer back out. What was the point of the deposit? Money talks. Force buyers to make $3k non refundable deposits and you will see prices level out and pins ending up in the hands of the end users and not the flippers.
Quoted from iceman44:That’s exactly what I’m doing Vid
Thanks
Or at the very least, come out to SoCal and play some great/brutal single ball pre-DMD classics to renew your faith in what playing/collecting Pinball SHOULD be like in 2018. 
Shasta and various lunch meats will be provided of course!
Stern forces Distibutors to take an allotment essentially
If a good customer decides he doesn’t want the game then sell it to someone else! Never seen a hobby where the consumer is continuously expected to bend over and grab their ankles
I think JJ was talking about the “abuse” from people like Kaneda. If you have done it repeatedly and you know it then make that guy pay in full up front. Not good loyal customers that get F Ed at every turn
That’s why Joe at Pinballstar operates his business that way, Game room guys, and I’m sure others
Just that simple
Quoted from NimblePin:Or at the very least, come out to SoCal and play some great/brutal single ball pre-DMD classics to renew your faith in what playing/collecting Pinball SHOULD be like in 2018.
Shasta and various lunch meats will be provided of course!
Chili and tacos too?
I’ll bring the ghost peppers. I’m down. EMs sound really good right about now
Quoted from iceman44:Stern forces Distibutors to take an allotment essentially
If a good customer decides he doesn’t want the game then sell it to someone else! Never seen a hobby where the consumer is continuously expected to bend over and grab their ankles
That’s why Joe at Pinballstar operates his business that way, Game room guys, and I’m sure others
Just that simple
So, if the distro doesn't agree with Stern's terms they should drop them or they can decide if they want to take the risk. It is no different than a vehicle dealership and the manufacturer. Ford forces dealers to take inventory. That is what you have to do if you want to be a dealer. It is part of being a dealer.
Quoted from libtech:With sterns I actually think a non refundable deposit is best, since without guys scoop up spots before they even see the game, then if it looks great, keep it and flip it, and if not just ditch their spots
I think the distros should do what the car dealers do; charge extra for pre-orders.
Anyone ordering a Beatles LE, sight unseen, certainly should pay $1000 over list.
macca1-418311 (resized).jpgQuoted from iceman44:Chili and tacos too?
I’ll bring the ghost peppers. I’m down. EMs sound really good right about now
For you Ice,
I can do both.
I’m sure even O-Din can be convinced to throw something on the ol’ Traeger for you to enjoy.
To further sweeten the deal, if you come around the 19-21 of October, you can be one of my guests at Pinball Madness.
Quoted from NimblePin:For you Ice,
I can do both.
I’m sure even O-Din can be convinced to throw something on the ol’ Traeger for you to enjoy.
To further sweeten the deal, if you come around the 19-21 of October, you can be one of my guests at Pinball Madness.
A traeger grill, old school EMs and great chili, if I didn’t know I’d swear you guys were from Texas! 
Quoted from NeilMcRae:are you sure about that I thought GOTG and Star Wars still had games you could buy?
That you could still buy from distros that are stuck with them. Not from Stern
Quoted from iceman44:Stern forces Distibutors to take an allotment essentially
If a good customer decides he doesn’t want the game then sell it to someone else! Never seen a hobby where the consumer is continuously expected to bend over and grab their ankles
I think JJ was talking about the “abuse” from people like Kaneda. If you have done it repeatedly and you know it then make that guy pay in full up front. Not good loyal customers that get F Ed at every turn
That’s why Joe at Pinballstar operates his business that way, Game room guys, and I’m sure others
Just that simple
You keep saying that stern is screwing you or customers or whatever. How are they asking you to bend over and take anything. They make games, if you want you can buy the games.
You also keep blaming Kenada but you just stated that you agreed to buy SWLE and bailed, now you agreed to buy POTCCE and have bailed.
Who made you send deposits for any game? How is stern screwing you?
Quoted from jgentry:One of the funniest parts about this drunken post is that JJP is applauded for letting the games speak for themselves.
What is also funny is all the uproar about JJP's "LE" as not being a true LE because they make 1000 of them.
So which is it:
(1) Stern is great because they only make 500 LE's
But on the same hand if the game is a hit all the LE's sell out in a day so you have to but money down before you see it and now you have a chance of losing that money.
(2) JJP is great because you can see the LE before hand then put money on it.
But because they make 1000 of them. They complain it's not a true LE.
I personally would never buy an LE just because of the limited quantity. I would only buy because of added features or artwork. so I couldn't give a rats ass if they 500 or 5000 LE's
Quoted from iceman44:I give MAJOR props to JJP for letting the game speak for itself and at least some distributors doing the "deposit refund" if for whatever reason things don't work out.
Of course, Joe is a great Distro and gets it. I just rolled my $2k JJP POTCCE deposit over to another pin, could have gotten a FULL REFUND but wanted something else.
Stern is jamming these LE's down the Distro's throats and making them commit to buying a certain allotment.
So when they say, "Munsters will sell out on day one"
What they mean to say is SOME Distros have locked people in with "non refundable" deposits. But hey, you get to decide after seeing the reveal after 24 hours.
I don't blame them, I blame Stern and give them a big F U, as an LE buyer!!!
Let the M fing game speak for itself! And Distros need to quit selling to idiots that just want to flip the pin. That JIG IS UP. NO MAS.
So bottom line is I'll buy games from people in the future like Joe and Game Room Guys that don't need to hold your balls hostage.
If the game is good, so be it, if not then STERN needs to F ing EAT IT.
Were you buying from a distributor that started behaving badly? Let us know who to avoid.
Quoted from Shapeshifter:Market is getting saturated so only buy a game ( LE ) if you really want to play and enjoy.
If you don't like taking losses on your 'investment' then buying NIB is not for you.
I only buy pro's now as they are usually nearly as good and less mechs to go wrong on them.
Don’t you mean no mechs?
Correct me if I'm wrong... these flippers never actually take possession of the game? Isn't that the issue? Maybe stern or the distros should not allow people to take over someone's "spot". They should have to pay for the entire game, have it shipped to them, then after they take possession of the game they can try to flip it at that point. I have no issue with this.
Quoted from hawkmoon:Yeah,Riffbear,and when I finally got my Money up for a ST/LE,THEY were GONE!!! Had to settle for Pre and add!!
Sorry to hear man!
Ive got spare LE side rails but I'm in OZ
So you are going to tell me that we should tell people what they can and cannot do with a machine they bought and paid for? Haha, good one. The consumer paid the distributor, and the distributor paid Stern. Full stop. You don't get tto dictate what other people do with the possessions they own. The owner can push a brand new LE off a roof if they want, or they can list it for sale at any price they want as well. That is the whole point of a free market...you can do with your money what you want. And I am saying this as someone who has never bought an LE, and currently has no plans to.
I think the price point is about to break. Any further increase by any manufacturer is going to be met with a lot of resistance.
JJP is going to go for 10k probably, Stern may raise a few hundred, Spooky are not immune either.
It's simple supply and demand. When games break a certain price point, less people will buy. I think we see that with JJP Pirates. I do not get to see the Financials though I can feel the ceiling is here.
Secondary market on games will be at least 20 percent less on most titles and 30 to 35 percent less on the less stellar ones.
Quoted from iceman44:EMs sound really good right about now
I only buy old games - not EMs but solid state. I have enough stress in other arenas of life... and the world of new pinball is laden with drama I hardly understand - nor care to.
Quoted from hank527:I think the price point is about to break. Any further increase by any manufacturer is going to be met with a lot of resistance.
really??
tell that to the 88 people that paid $15K sight unseen for the batman 66 SLE and the 200 people that lined up and purchased ALL of the re-themed spider-man home editions [supreme] for $10.5K (and up) in less than 10 mins
those may be small numbers, but all 500 of the iron maiden LEs sold out fast too and those were north of $9K
Quoted from vid1900:Stop buying any new pins.
Just play the frigging games you've already got....
Wait...don’t buy new crap and be happy with what you have? Are you a commie or something? 
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