It's how Stern and JJP make extra cash and I honestly think collectors like the idea, look at any other hobby (i.e. cars, baseball cards, coins)

Alot of B titles are just as fun or more than A titles and can be had for less than 2000 in most cases. I'm not buying into all the hype personally. I can't wait to try them out though But I'll probably never spend 7,8,9,10g's on a pin....ever....I might spend 5...tops..

"No matter how ridiculously hot a woman may be, someone somewhere is tired of her sh*t."

Same goes for pins....

Great wisdom there.

I also am baffled on what to do. I can't afford nor could I place them all, so I've decided to cherry pick two of them and purge my B & C title Segas. Which two to buy, that's the hard part. I've already made my risky choice and signed up for BHZA and decided to skip Predator. So, that leaves either X-Men/Avengers or WoZ/Hobbit. Still, not an easy decision as I used to be a big superhero comic fan, so I'm going to wait and get some feedback on the next two that come out. This is a short-lived pinball happy hour following some dry years if you look back to our options around the time CSI came out. So, we should enjoy the options while we have them. I doubt our new pinball options will be this good in 2-3 years.

I'm with badbilly on most of what he said. My game room holds 18 pins, my shop 9. At the same time, I can't keep every pin forever. I don't think of the stern LEs as investments. I think for stern it will be the premiums I look for. Since my collection is basically full, I will have to start selling pins to buy others. So it won't be a full $7000. It'll be a sale for $6000, a purchase for $7000, net loss $1000. I can afford that. BHZA is something different. A game with only 124 in the run done by Popadiuk will skyrocket in value.

Screw it dude lets go bowling. It only really matters what the collector or player feels regarding their collection. I personally think the prices for new pins (6500 to 10000 range) has gotten a bit out of control but people are buying them so I guess I am in the minority on that one and that's okay. I would really prefer makers to offer pins at more affordable prices and then sell Mods/upgrades to personalize them or bring them to the 'LE' level.

Due to Skit-B's open line of communication with the community, price, limited run, and the creative grittiness of the Predator theme I'm choosing to go that route. Not sure if I will ever spend over 6K for a pin if I did it would likely only be for a Lebowski theme. By no means am I saying its a bad idea to spend more. I just would prefer to have two awesome pins at 4K a piece than one for 8 to 10K but that is just me. And of course I have a limited budget for pins saving for my family takes precedence thats just my nature. Everyone has a different situation though if a pinhead has no problem paying 10K for one pin and they love it then more power to them. I agree with you that buying or even looking for pins is very addictive in our hobby BadBilly but you will find no help here to curtail it.

I have said that before...

I agree 100%. It is basically a computer in a big fancy box.

Well I can fit only so many and after looking at the prices of the classics pins I wanted I decided for the same money why not have new LE pins which feature LEDS, Shaker motors etc. Just want the most bang for the buck as I can fit in the space. For me its not collectability as much as cool features.

player myself - collecting never turns out good for me

I agree as well, but for the same reasons you pay more for a used pin retail you will pay more for a new pin from Stern.

I dont think Stern could financially offer a machine for lower price. I think their overhead must be pretty high. The designers they have on board dont work for peanuts I'm sure.

Combine that with the fact that they are not being as innovative with their pins as say WOZ makers are and collectors will find it easy to not be as loyal to them anymore.

Competition is great. It will force makers, if they are financially able, to lower their prices to gain your business.

I feel for you BadBilly!...I've fought the urge to keep buying and collecting and I'm up to 4 machines now with LOTR LE, SM, WOZ and BHZA....how many do I really need to enjoy playing? Collecting?.....

I'm going to try and limit my collection to 6-8 games and be satisfied with playing the rest of them at a place like Pinballz....

It will be interesting to see what happens with all these new games and new technology coming out how that impacts future prices, so far it's gotten a little out of whack, or maybe a lot out of whack, who knows

I started a player vs. collector thread last year and was told that once you have more than 1 pin you are a collector. I do not see myself as a collector. I buy a game, play it until i am sick of it and then move on. I'm not about to keep a game just to have it as a trophy, not that i have anything that qualifies as such...

Sell me your AFM if you run out of room, BB!

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/collectors-vs-players

Forget the Bentley. Forget the yacht. Forget the three week trip to Hong Kong. I found pinball! I want to own one of every pin. I will not be finished until then. It's a looooong road of collecting, buying, selling, fixing, and FUN for me!

I don't get the whole player vs. collector thing.I consider myself a player/collector.I collect ,so I can play pinball at home.The more I collect,the more I play.The more variety I play,the more I want to collect......and so on,and so on,and so on.Scott

I think with any hobby - you can get to a point where it becomes an obsession. At that point you spend more time researching, buying, fixing and obsessing over every little thing that is not perfect, then you actually do enjoying.

I was at a house recently where the person had about 135 machines. Just completely absurd.
The basement was just stacked with pinball machines and parts everywhere.
It would take you over 10 hours to play a 5 minute game on each machine.
It was awesome to visit, but would not want that in my home.
(Here is the collection if you are interested: http://www.pinball4all.com/collectionH.php)

I am trying to keep this something I enjoy.

As a collector, I do pretty well - good size collection of pins which are in good shape. As a player I consider myself slightly above average. Sometimes I get lucky and can beat a room full of people but usually finish in the middle of the pack. I know I am relly a collector at heart. Those that can play well, do, those that can't, collect them instead.

I started off with 4 machines before joining Pinside this past February. I'm now at 7 + pre-orders on BHZA and Predator. Yeah, it's an obsession, but one that is based on passion for something that enriches my life. Sure, it stretches the wallet, but it also keep me out of trouble

Sadly, I don't see any of the games in my collection as B or C list games. I've tried to do my best to get only what I really want. I would have a hard time trading or selling any in order to make room... but, I'm already out of space.

The way I see it, I would rather keep a couple in storage if I have to and rotate. I know I will eventually have the space, so that keeps me giong. The most important thing to do is to pick your number. I know I will not (and cannot) go beyond 10. I should really stop at 7 or 8 to be honest.

As for all the LE and boutique pins. I'd rather take a chance on the ones that sound promising to me and not miss out. I can always trade or sell them in the end.

+1000. I am going to add golf this year, but I think then I am set for life. My hobby plate will be full. Kids, smallmouth, pins, and golf. Can't fit it all in now as evidenced by the PF being up on CV for over a week now.

I like what Stern is doing with the LE/Premium thing. I'm not into the collecting side so having a pin with some special number means nothing to me. If I can get basically the same pin with all the features at a discount, I would do that.

Yup! I will pay for more play features but not for collect ability.

I can sympathise and understand where your coming from BadBilly but at the same time I've also kind of had my decision made a little easier. After all the TFLE nonsense and the fact that as cool asACDC is looking I can't help but think I've seen this before (T2) and the lower playfield looks very underwhelming IMO, I've decided never to buy a NIB stern again and I'm a huge comic book fan so Xmen/Avengers is a big attraction to me but thankfully Predator is an even bigger draw for me and I pulled the trigger on a Predator.

Way I see it why buy a NIB game from a company that continues to increase prices yet continues to under deliver when there are now companies emerging like Skit-B who are trying to keep prices down while going above and beyond to deliver a immersive pinball experience, Keven & Co from Skit-B have even said they plan on putting all money directly back into the company gradually buying what is needed to produce a pin requiring them to outsource less and less of the production hopefully making the next games a little cheaper or at least maintaining the current price but with more features. I know where my money's going this time and if Alien or SAW is a theme Skit-B use in the future my money will continue to go to them. Thankfully WoZ doesn't interest me as a theme as for the hobbit lets not go there I'm trying to pretend it won't happen.

I can completely relate to the "don't want to miss out on the next BBB mentality". Even though it wasn't nearly as limited, this is one of the main reasons I jumped on WOZ the first day you could order one. After seeing what had happened to the prices of BBB and SMB, I didn't want to miss the boat. What I couldn't have predicted is how much the pinball market would change over the course of 15 months. JJP opened the floodgates, and it's been a spectacular turn of events for collectors. JPop and Skit-B have shown that there is a market for boutique games, and where there is money to be made, competition will follow. What an exciting time for pinball!

with the time and money that JJP has invested in WOZ, I think they will be producing as many as they can sell. It will not be anywhere close to collectible as BBB. They will have to sell WOZ for a few years, at least until the next pin comes out, which I thought I heard was 2014

I have a disease, but at least there is comfort in knowing many of you are also afflicted.

My only problem now is that as I learn more about fixing (and gain a little confidence in my abilities) I am finding that I am enjoying that almost as much as playing/collecting.

I am finding I also like the hunt for a new pin/deal which is probably the worst thing for my pocket book

The "Oh no, I'm going to miss out" mindset is a marketing wet dream. That is what gets people to sell the kids for whatever it is that they painted up as exclusive. I try not to worry to much on missing out but, rather try to step back and take a rational approach at (at least as much as possible) to this hobby. If there is a limited run and I miss out, oh well.

The question is how many the next BBB's can there be? If there was already BBB then WOZLE then MG then TRONLE then BHZA then HOBITLE so on, how much further can irrational hype spending continue upward and fear of missing out can the hobby handle? Don't get me wrong, if I see a pin that I really want for reasons of my personal enjoyment, I will find a way to acquire it and I may even get one of these boutique pins one day. I will not buy one purely with the mindset that I'm going to miss out and can't get it later due to pricing frenzy.

I hope that all made sense!

I see it this way: A collector accumulates games. A player/retailer/flipper goes through continuous buy/play/sell cycles, so it's a bit harder to pin "collector" on that lot.

Just my theory on this... but BBB is BBB because it was produced (in a round about way) by a historical pinball company in ridiculously low numbers. There's a historical element, it's part of the timeline of pinball history. If in a vacuum Stern had come out with BBB it wouldn't be a $12k pin, as much if its premium is derived from historical significance and scarcity. Though with the crazy pricing lately, maybe Stern could get $8.9k in LE form

So the question is will there be enough perceived value long term in these LE's / JPop games to equate roughly to scarcity and historical significance of BBB? I understand JPop games will be extremely limited, and JPop himself brings some historical interest, so it remains to be seen.

Lots of us could be considered players/collectors. Some of us could be called players/restorers. To me though, you need to pick one above all the others. I consider myself a player. Playing the games is purest form of the hobby. That should be the priority if you're in the hobby. Too many collectors go off the deep end and lose sight of what the hobby is supposed to be about. Repair/ restoration guys sometimes say they enjoy working on games more than playing them. That's crazy. Look on the front page here. Very few threads about actually playing. Same thing over on RGP. Hard to imagine so much talk about games with so little of it being about actual gameplay.

Although I 'own' more than a handful of games, I consider the term collector derogatory. I'm a pin keeper, not a collector. I also operate games. I take pride in that. Call me an op if you want. I also repair games for other folks. So you can can call me a tech if you want. Just don't call me a collector. I don't want to be associated with that crowd.

The best thing about being a player is that you don't even have to own a game. I watched a dude who was living out of his van kick ass in the casual tournament at CAX a couple of years ago. Watching him forget his worries for a weekend and just enjoy the game was awesome. That's what pinball is all about.

I hate everything associated with owning a pin except playing it. If there were enough viable options to play "in the wild", I wouldn't own a pin. simple as that. The fact is, that isn't reality around here.

To be honest, I don't enjoy playing pinball at home anywhere near as much as on location.

Dave > why do you enjoy playing on location more than at home?

I love playing at home because I can really get to learn the specifics of each pin and how they really react. I also really enjoy having friends (both new and old) over to play. It is a blast for me to see others enjoy my games and is especially cool when a noob gets their first multiball or jackpot. Still one of the best things so far was seeing my non-pin buddy tour the mansion for his first time on TAF. He was grinning from ear to ear like a little kid.

If you want, I will happily keep your pins at my house and then you can just come over to play them 'on location' when you want

Playability>Collectibility

I'm probably in the minority here but, not only is WOZ ECLE not going to be as collectible, I'm not convinced WOZ is even going to be a very fun game to play. To me the layout of the game does not seem like it would be a great playing pin... just a feeling I get. It looks like they tried to throw a whack of stuff into that playfield. I'm very curious how it will flow and I hope I'm wrong.
I see JJP as a high-end version of Stern. Both are in it for profit and both will be chasing licenses for their game themes... but JJP just seems to want to put out a better product.

The only real boutique developers I see are JPOP and Skit-B. One is a proven creative mind and the other is going for broke, from a player's perspective. This is where the real genius will have an opportunity to surface. For my money, if I want both collectibility and playability, that's where I'm looking.
Here we have the opportunity to get in on games that are not only as (or more) rare than BBB, but they may also be more fun to play. Can you hear that? It's the sound of me having and eating my cake

Ain't that the truth though!...Luckily, I have Pinballz 75 miles away to get my fix on whatever machine I want to play as the mood strikes me...AND...it's BYOB into the facility......the dude that has 135 machines might be overkill! That's hoarder type obsession but hey, whatever floats your boat.....