"Well then I'll stop following his blog and cancel my trip to the Zoo."

If you don't go to the Zoo you could always come to the Ann Arbor show. The LL#2 won't be there, unfortunately though. We tried to buy it... But that's Ok. We do have a lot of other one-off custom games though. And the Williams Firefly will make its debut at the show. If that's any consequence to this whole thing.

On the pay vs not-pay situation, personally i would pay the $500. It's not worth this "drag thru mud" consequences. I mean we're all rich dudes, to some extent (we collect a totally non-needed asset known as "pinball"), what's $500 ? To ruin your reputation over $500 seems silly to me. The whole LL#2 game was a gamble, one personally i wasn't willing to go "balls deep" on (hence didn't get it.) I was willing to go $1500 straight up cash, but that's the most i would gamble personally. Obviously someone was willing to go deeper. Just ya gotta know your comfort level, and not stray outside of it.

i think making a deal pending on if "the roms are good" was a silly idea. i mean there's so much that could go wrong with that situation. both parties seem a bit greedy... i mean i can see both sides, but i can't understand why these two can't just figure something out. i thought the $250 compromise was reasonable. i mean the whole idea behind a compromise is that no one is happy. is all this really worth the $250 (or $500 depending on how you look at it?) I get that the ROMs aren't custom. And i get that the ROMs are good. Isn't the middle ground a good position for both parties? Or i guess they can continue to beat each other up to the end of the world over a little money.

I will say i have learned something from this... neither party is one that i would ever want to deal with!

I hope this gets fixed up and playable. (The game.)

How confusing. Hard to follow. (This thread)

What a coward. It truly amazes me the lengths that people go to in order to avoid responsibility. Way to represent the pinball community to someone new. I see you valued your reputation at $250...I can assure you it's no longer worth that.

They have done that already, and they do not match completely.

What a drag. He went from hero to goat and f'd his own rep over $250, and while I know to some that's real money, for most pinball guys that's kinda chump change.

I was pretty excited over someone getting the game and now this story is sad end.

99% of Michigan seems to be on the spectrum.

Why would Ted compromise????

The ROMs were good !

Ray-Day loaded the LL ROMs into QS and they did not work correctly; probably because of the multiball.

The buyer has a blog? What's his affiliation with the Zoo?

That, we have never found out.

I remember that the guy that was restoring the LL#2 (QS layout) for the new owner 4 years ago, was going to make a play video and dump the ROMs, but I don't think he ever did.

The lesson to be learned here: Whenever the buyer/prospect give out some flaky idea about the possibility of price adjustments based on conditions it is best to get all the money now and make refunds, if needed.

Actually, it kind of sounds like the guy never planned to pay in the first place.

Can you please provide a link to his blog?

Man, my 3k and local offer doesn’t sound so bad now...

Spot on!

Silly yes, but that is the deal the buyer proposed and the seller accepted.

I believe your view is slanted because you didn't get the machine for $1500, you guys couldn't agree on price. How does that make Ted greedy? Because he held out for the best deal possible? That's smart business in my book.

No one is happy because the seller is out $500 and the buyer is playing dirty pool. The buyer felt he had leverage to say too bad, I am not paying ONLY because the machine is already in his possession. Why is compromising reasonable? The seller is 100% in the right, the buyer is 100% in the wrong. The buyer doesn't want to own up to the terms HE brought to the table. That's not 50-50, and that's certainly not a level playfield for compromise. If the buyer were to offer maybe $400, then that MIGHT be reasonable for the so called implied uniqueness of the working Eproms. I think Ted might think so as well? Remember, the buyer originally told the seller to pound sand and ONLY made the $250 offer because of the pressure here from Pinside. The buyer may have unactivated his pinside account, but I guarantee he is reading EVERY word here.

And if the buyer is part of the Pinball at the Zoo crew, I also will have made my last trip there and be not be bringing any more solid state machines for the auction, unless the seller is made whole immediately.

We could always do a charity BJ act at Expo.

Charge $20 a person and give the cash to retarded kids or something.

I think the $250 compromise is reasonable because if he didn't accept it, he'll get NOTHING. Therefore, the $250 compromise looks like the best course of action. Because where i live, $250 is better than $0 any day of the week. And being "right or wrong" is really quite irrelevant at this point, assuming that you're looking at the bottom line....

This makes the most sense by far. Take the $250 and don't make "gladly pay you Tuesday" deals again. ALL cash up front avoids any problems. I can't believe all the pitchforks swinging in the air over something so trivial. I don't know about you guys, but I have real problems in my life.

I’d like to see it to. Is it a pinball blog?

There is nothing to compromise about. The ROMs worked, end of story.

You pay the money you owe, or you STOLE that money.

How dumb can people be????

Not sure what your point is. I did nothing wrong and just wanted to be paid what was owed to me as per agreement messages from buyer. Im sorry you didnt get the game and looks like your feelings were hurt by that. You would never want to deal with me? LOL

Here's his post with the link to the blog and announcement that he's taking it to Pinball at the Zoo.

I tried the link and the blog is now private. Probably all butt hurt from people going over there and telling him to pay up.

If $500 is so trivial, please send Ted $500 of your money. Not so trivial now is it?

I have never understood why people who get screwed should take the advice to just live with it. That's bullshit, fight for what is right and not let that spineless crook get away with that. Why ANYONE would defend the buyer in this community should have their heads examined. It doesn't matter that any of us think it was a crazy deal, it's the FACT that the buyer came up with this deal and it was agreed upon. Now that same buyer wants to renege because his own gamble wasn't a total jackpot? Pure and total bullshit, take the buyer and his reputation both to the gutter.

Ok, he has nothing to do with PATZ other than taking the machine there. In that case, who would like to join me at PATZ in making sure everyone there knows he cheated the seller out of $500 so that machine could be there?

I've heard from 2 more people that Ken has NOTHING to do with Pinball At The Zoo, so we can squash that rumor.

Can the pinball at the zoo crew put some heat on this loafer?

I doubt it, turns out the buyer(Ken) has nothing to do with the PATZ show other than wanting to show off the Lazer Lord.

New PATZ T-shirts are available for pre-order $20 http://www.pinballatthezoo.com/ :

581ee76df5669e360ed64992744c0617 (resized).jpg
/s

He already stole the money and essentially admitted he did so in saying he wasn’t going to pay it. Then after stealing $500 from sellers pocket he offered $250 back. F yeah I’d take it at this point. Buyer is never going to get the $500 back, there’s no recourse to do so. It’s just a huge time suck to try to continue to do so either thru court (seems unlikely it would go anywhere without clear documentation/terms of sale) or pursuing the buyer personally in attempts to drag his reputation down in the mud.

It’s 250 and be done with it or zero - but looks like it’s zero at this point.

Vid sez, "How dumb can people be?"

Pretty dumb if you think $0 is better than $250.
At this point "right vs wrong" is irrelevant. It's $250 or $0. Take your pick. There is no $500 option here.

To all of you who think $250 is nothing please write a check and send it to Ted.

I just don't get how easy it is to say take the $250 and be done with it or that's a good deal. So the for the buyer his integrity is OK for $250, but Ted should live with he can be bought for $250? I am with Ted, screw that. They agreed to the buyer's terms, not Ted's, and that is the exact reason why compromise is bullshit. Does anyone really think the buyer would be good for the $250 now anyway?

How is there no $500 option? This is where you are all wrong. Ted(seller) has complete email documentation of the deal. If Ted were to file this in small claims it would be a slam dunk case, buyer knows this too. He would file for the $500 owed PLUS ALL costs involved(filing fees, document fees & court costs)He could even ask for $1500 in damages(3x the amount) proving that the buyer was willfully trying to evade payment, but that's for a judge to decide. Take this scumbag court and make him pay. It's a long drive to the Kendall Co.(Deal was made in Yorkville IL and that's where the buyer took possession, so case belongs there) courthouse from Rockford MI. That's more money in travel, gas, and time. So the buyer is now going to be on the line for a minimum of $1000 and possibly more. So now I ask all of you who think a compromise is such a good deal, which is better, pay the $500 and be done, or take the $1000 plus gamble in court? Seems like paying the $500 is the VERY best deal after all.

I'd take 0. My principles and belief in right vs wrong is worth more than $250. I want no part of comprises with a thief. Pay me what you owe me or go F yourself.

And this is the problem with the world today. Just because you think you’re right doesn’t mean you really are right. I see both of their points of view. I think they both have valid complaints. Ted more than Ken, but whatever. I think anybody that is even somewhat reasonable can see that too. Plus the fact that the $500 thing isn’t going to happen even if it is fully correct. Compromise is never a bad thing. If you think it is I guess you should go join Congress and let me know how that all works out for you. Seems like they’re doing one hell of a job at getting nothing done and yelling and screaming at each other.

well according to the video. The roms only work in his version. Just because they are made available to everyone, only really helps the VP guys. he is the only one with that layout. All roms should be available to everyone all the time anyway.

Only unprincipled people think that Right vs. Wrong is irrelevant.

What????

What possible **valid** complaint does Kenneth have???

He wanted working ROMs - he got them!

He wanted one-of-a-kind ROMs - he got them!

He has the ONLY pinball machine in the world than can run those ROMs

His only complaint is that he wanted to steal $500 from a pinball nubie, and now he is exposed to the world.

$500 is a pretty big deal. I have at least 7 games in my collection that were under $500.

Good debate....and obviously I am on the side of the seller. ONLY because of the evidence presented. I do also comprehend the buyers point. However, his point is moot in this situation because his only stipulations for the $500 being withheld were the Eproms worked and were not corrupted. You can't make a deal, take possession of the merchandise, and then renegotiate said deal. That's dirty pool!

It's no different than hiring a painter to paint your house blue and then telling the painter that you are not going to pay him the full amount because you don't like the way the house looks after it was painted blue. There is no implication that the painter wouldn't get paid in full because the homeowner didn't like how the new color looks is there? Should the painter compromise for less? Hell no, he did his part.

Same with Ted, he did his part and trusted the buyer. Buyer reneged because the Eproms are not exclusive, he doesn't like the new color. Too bad, pay the $500.

I currently have 4 !

I have 15

Talk about a marked pinball machine. If the guy ever takes it to a show or tries to display it in any way, the nice story about the LL prototype will be tainted by all the whispers of the sour deal that is sure to travel with it. Doubtful this pin will ever see the light of day.

This is really a shame too.

Ken, is this really worth $500 to ruin everything? Taint the legacy of this find? Ruin your reputation in pinball? Having to look over your shoulder if you take it to a show wondering if someone is going to cause a scene?

Reinstate your account, offer to pay Ted his $500(and do it!), and everyone will just tell you it's was the right thing to do. No more worries, no hiding, no accusations. I know you are reading this, you have been beat on pretty good here, but you hold the opportunity to change everything.

Do the right thing.

Yes im sure he reads this thread every day. All he needs to say is "oops my bad!" and pay up. Im not a rich guy...... just an dumb plumber but i have ethics and principals i live by. I try to treat people with respect and hope for the same in return. The $500 would have been great for me right now... shit even the $250 would have helped but i have to live with the fact there are people out there that take advantage of guys like me. I could sit on here all night and boo hoo about it but im not going to do that. Guys like Ken will get whats coming to them for sure.

Wrong....THAT's what's wrong with the world today. Here's a good read: http://www.businessinsider.com/why-compromise-is-a-bad-deal-in-life-and-in-business-2016-5

What he is talking about is nothing new. Negotiation is all about having your cup running over with things that mean little to you that you can throw away. Your opponent, if he is smart, is going to have some throw away items, as well. Like, I don't really care about items A and B but item C is damn well going to stay. My opponent can't stand Item C buy really wants item A. We haggle. We bluff. We keep our cards in close. Eventually, A and C stay and B goes away. We talk A and C. We talk up B with no A and no C. We trade B be away and start pushing for C. blah-blah-blah. We did not compromise. You want this? You are going to have to give me this. Have a bucket full of items you can throw away.

Unions and companies do this all the time. Ask for the moon and negotiate to get two extra days of vacation each year.

This is a rather simplistic explanation, but don't give up anything unless you get something in return.

In this guy's example of the brown shoe-black shoe compromise. Don't compromise; Tell the old lady you will wear the black shoes if you get laid two or three extra times this coming week and see how much she wants you to wear those black shoes
+++++++++++++++

In a like vein, when in business, the legal community will tell you to never apologize. No matter how minor or egregious your fault or mistake is---never apologize. Screw up in business and the lawyers will come. If you have apologized, then you have admitted wrong doing on your part and you are going to get hit with a lawsuit and the apology has weakened your position.

(edited by mod team)

Correct, and there is no law that says he has to.

He sure did. Where does he think the IPDB ROM images came from?

Lets say the ROMs were fried and he burned a set from IPDB, how would he ever know if the IPDB files were 100% correct for his white wood Lazer Lord? Seriously, stop and think about that. Guess what? Ken got EVERYTHING he needed out of those working ROMs.

The compromise was made at the time of the purchase. The seller didn't get his asking price, but compromised for cash today, another machine, and a bet that the ROMs would work.

I don't understand why the seller is being asked to compromise again.

It is too bad the buyer is ruining his reputation for $250.