(Topic ID: 198627)

Lawman help needed

By Tru33

2 years ago

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  • 14 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by HowardR
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider


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SD Rst Pulse (resized).PNG
SD Rst Cntrl (resized).PNG
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#1 2 years ago

I recently got a lawman that is doing a couple things incorrectly. First when you start a game the 10 reel or second to last reel is not reseting. The reel does move during game scoring and also move when I manually trigger it. Not sure how to fix the reel to reset each game start. Secondly when you lose your ball and it tallys points it starts doing some phantom scoring. I noticed the scores were in the 100 incroments so it may be a bumper or the right side targets maybe? Lastly the right side targets all work to open and close the gate but only one target awards the 100 point as it should. Any help would be great, thanks!

P.S. I'm newb to pin repair.

#2 2 years ago
Quoted from Tru33:

when you start a game the 10 reel or second to last reel is not reseting.

Check the switches on the offending reel. One or two of them should be closed except when on zero.

#3 2 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Check the switches on the offending reel. One or two of them should be closed except when on zero.

This is that set of 3 switches that are at the top of the score reel. One switch is used to trigger the carry over at 9 to the next digit (closes at 9). The other two are for the reset function (closed everywhere except at 0 like HowardR stated). One allows the score reel solenoid to pulse during reset to make it to zero (this is the one giving you problems). The other is part of the reset circuit that tell the game when all 16 score reels are at zero (this one appears to be working for you or may be stuck open if your game actually finished reset and starts a game but leaves the 10 point reel where it sat).

For the random scoring, it may be a playfield switch gapped too closely. Start a game and then pound on the playfield and see if you get any free scores. If so, try to locate the problem switch. Those star Roll overs are very touchy as far as switch adjustments go. I can't remember if they score 100 or 10. Check and re-adjust.

For the Red and Green Spot targets that control the gate, there are probably two sets of blades on each switch. One controls the gate function, the other would score the 100 points. Check the gap and clean the points on these switches. Also, check for broken wires, not just at the dead switches, but also at other switches that are labeled to score 100 points. One wire would chain around the playfield from switch to switch and this could be broken at a working switch, killing all the other switches down stream.

Rubber Rings usually only score 10 points. So, not sure if there is one on the playfield that would score 100 points to be suspect.

But I almost wonder if the two 100 point problems are related. Look closely at the switch blades to make sure that they aren't touching all the time (which would normally cause a stuck score reel solenoid and bell chime solenoid - assuming your game actually has the bell chime unit installed or connected - many re-import games from Germany were never made with bell chimes). Unless this game is old enough to not use the bell chime unit but instead, has a single bell for higher points, and a bell and clapper that are part of the 00-90 Match step up unit (bell is often missing). If one of the 100 point switches were really close and touching, that one might score when hit but blind the game of all the other ones. During bonus collect, the score motor has switches on it that open disconnecting many features on the playfield from scoring. So, it could go from being stuck on, to opening during a motor cycle, and then score again when the score motor is at home position (between bonus step downs).

#4 2 years ago
Quoted from Tru33:

the right side targets all work to open and close the gate but only one target awards the 100 point as it should.

Check these switches on the Opens Gate and Closes Gate relays. On 4 player Sheriff they're D and E.

Pinball (resized).png

#5 2 years ago

Thanks everyone. This pin is at my fathers so I have a limited amount of time work on it from time to time. I dove into the first problem, the score reel. With all your help plus using the 100 reel beside it for a guide, I mimicked that 100 reel. The switches seem to be working ok. However on game reset it again wont reset the 10 reel. Another issue I notice is I have the game set on 5 balls and it doesn't always same game over after the last ball. Instead it continues to give you a ball and score but the current ball at left doesn't light up on any ball. Basically I'm occasionally playing a game without the pin keeping track that their is a new game or the ball. I'm new but I'm learning..

#6 2 years ago

Not having a schematic to look at, I believe the G.O. relay is tripped by one of the snow shoe jumpers (more like Ice Skates) on the back wiper of the Player unit. Many times, these spring loaded jumpers lose the small "areal" stranded wire that jumpers the ends of the two shoes together while still having the one across the two channels they go up and down in. This makes for an intermittent connection. Sometimes it will make contact, sometimes it won't. You should also confirm that the center of the snow shoe is centered on the brass rivet it sits upon. If not centered, it can be adjusted by those three screws with the slots in the bakelite wiper.

Basically, your player unit gets to 6th ball, 1st player (doesn't exist) and the cam switches do not distribute the score relays to any of the 4 player score drums until it moves many many balls and comes back around to 1st Ball, 1st Player. There are a number of dead steps between 5th ball 4th player, and 1st Ball 1st Player. Plus there are a couple of positions in there that are used by part of the score reset process.

#7 2 years ago

I had the same issue Cactus described on my Pioneer. In my case I cleaned the rivets on the ball count unit with 600 grit sandpaper dampened with 99% isopropyl, then cleaned with novus 2. I haven't had an issue with the game not ending in over a year now.

I have no idea is Lawman is the case, but a lot of gottliebs I've worked on at least have a "last ball" relay somewhere. If it does check to see if it's activating, and if it is check the switches on it.

Also when you say the switches look ok on the 10s reel, did you ohm them out or just visually inspect them? From my experience it doesn't take much resistance to cause wacky behavior. (I've had issues with even .1 ohm resistance) Even if the switches visually look ok, they may still be dirty and not making proper contact. Also does both players 10s unit not reset, or just player ones?

#8 2 years ago

"Also does both players 10s unit not reset, or just player ones?"

Just player one. Thanks.

#9 2 years ago

The game ending issue sounds like a switch on the score motor. Occasionally the spacers between them fall off and cause trouble. I've had this problem 3 times on single-player Gottlieb games due to said problem, but never on a multiplayer machine yet, so I can't help you there from personal experience.

As for the relay, you can tell you're getting the correct pulse/signal from the score motor as all of the other reels share this same pulse.

Let me just through something weird out there, I had never seen or heard of this issue before I personally had it but it changed how I looked at pinball and coils (people always say "a coil works or it doesn't" - WRONG.), I had a coil in a machine that was perfectly burnt to the brink of dying but not quite to where it would make and break it's internal connection occasionally and work sometimes and not others. It was so bizarre and almost unheard of. It made troubleshooting nearly impossible as the game itself was in-check perfectly fine. Make sure that is not the case with your coil. Is it burnt at all?

Additionally, on these later games the reset is controlled via the AX relay.

There is switches for each score reel on there that needs to be clean and properly adjusted for the reset to work properly.

It is a common problem point for all Gottlieb pinball machines.

I can almost bet your problem lies there. I am surprised it was not mentioned yet. I would assume this kind of electro-mechanical error would effect both players though rather than one, which may be why it wasn't mentioned prior, but who knows.

#10 2 years ago
Quoted from Otaku:

Additionally, on these later games the reset is controlled via the AX relay.

From everything I've read gottlieb didn't go to the AX latch relay until 75. I have a 73 that still uses the reset bank and Lawman is a 71.

#11 2 years ago

Attached are to snips of a Snow Derby schematic (Dec. 1970). Lawman is Oct 1971. Wire colors may not match but function should be about the same.

One shows the reset control function as to how it moves the player unit (Via CAM switch P5B) and then waits for half of the score reels to reach zero and then step to finish the next half of the score reels and then sets up to player 1 ball 1. As best as we understand your description, this portion is functioning fine. This also shows the 3/5 Ball game over trip point (wiper off the player unit) for relay XB.

SD Rst Cntrl (resized).PNG

The second shows how the pulses are sent to the score reels through the Player unit cam switches from Motor 4A. (Motor 1A pulse switch
- not shown, is used for 100's and 1000's reels) So, for player one 10 points, it may be a switch in the stack P3B of the player unit cams. Also check condition of any solder joints at the back of the switches. Especially any bare wire jumpers that chain from stack to stack.

SD Rst Pulse (resized).PNG

#13 2 years ago

Thanks everyone I'm getting closer to fixing and learning as I go. The reel did work perfect for a few games then went back to sticking. So I must have a pesky switch. I'm just eye balling it. What multi meter should I purchase. I saw a $25 dollar one at lowes. Is that sufficient?

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from Tru33:

What multi meter should I purchase. I saw a $25 dollar one at lowes. Is that sufficient?

Instead of a meter, I always used the technique described in the Alligator Jumper Wires section of http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features

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