(Topic ID: 147426)

Lawman going nuts

By futurepinhead

8 years ago


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    #1 8 years ago

    Lawman was playing fine Monday, on Tuesday it started getting stuck in reset. Even when it is just powered on, before I even hit the start button. All the score reel switches are fine, I have triple checked them all. The only thing to get the reset to stop is manually pressing the SB Reset Control Relay.

    I decided to clean the Player Unit since it was pretty gunked up. I marked where everything was and took it apart. I left the switches and the main bracket alone.

    Now when I fire it up (I still have to start the game by manually hitting the SB Reset Control Relay) I can play, but most of the Ball lights do not work and during a game Ball 2 lights up on around the 5th Ball. That's when I called it a night.

    #2 8 years ago

    Lawmen are all a little crazy. oh, you meant the pin...
    I would go through the pin, and clean/lube all the steps, tighten switch stacks, clean/adjust switches etc...
    if the player unit was gunked, so are the rest of them...
    how are the coin switches?

    #3 8 years ago

    Sounds like something not right with that player unit. Check that again.

    #4 8 years ago
    Quoted from Dr_of_Style:

    tighten switch stacks

    That is one thing I forgot to do. I can do that for sure.

    Quoted from Dr_of_Style:

    how are the coin switches?

    The game has a temporary mod to go into free play so I haven't even checked the coin switches.

    What are your thoughts about it trying to reset when I just turn it on? It shouldn't even attempt to go into that until I hit the start button right?

    #5 8 years ago
    Quoted from poppapin:

    Sounds like something not right with that player unit. Check that again.

    Yeah, on the player unit there is the part with the rivots (I have no idea what its called) it has adjustments where you just loosen the screws and move it to adjust to the correct setting, I think this is where I messed up. However, since the lights aren't working anymore on the Ball numbers, I can't get it to go to Ball 1 on single player.

    #6 8 years ago

    No, Lawman, no!

    Lawman going nutsLawman going nuts

    #7 8 years ago

    That is a fiber contact board, and it needs to be adjusted correctly, or...expect headaches.
    The big ratchet gear shud have a peg on it that stops at a cup on the bracket. it needs to be there to be truly "HOME".
    Then remove the spider, loosen screws so it just moves with a twist, then put the spider on, and align ALL the contacts, meaning move it manually through its step positions, and when it all looks good, remove spider and tighten screws in the fiber board, lube and replace spider.
    I dont have that pin, but suspect if coin switches are bent it cud cause a constant signal to the coin relay, etc.
    on am EM pin, NEVER assume something cannot interfere with something else.
    ALWAYS look over EVERYTHING!
    99% of EM problems start with " that LOOKS ok"

    #8 8 years ago
    Quoted from Dr_of_Style:

    Then remove the spider, loosen screws so it just moves with a twist, then put the spider on, and align ALL the contacts, meaning move it manually through its step positions, and when it all looks good, remove spider and tighten screws in the fiber board, lube and replace spider.

    I tried different positions on it to get it to different rivets and I just don't know what rivets do what since all the sudden my Ball lights don't work on the Apron. If I can get those to work, then I would know where "Home" is.

    #9 8 years ago

    I will definitely check the coin switches by the way, that would be great if it was something so simple.

    #10 8 years ago

    ok, I assume we are talkin bout a regular step/down unit.
    the big coil steps up. and small coil steps down, or returns to home. the ratchet gear has a clock spring on it to return to home.
    each time the big coil fires, it moves the ratchet gear forward one step. then levers hold it there.
    you can move the unit one step at a time by moving the arm towards the coil. the rivits shud line up on each step.
    same thing in reverse with small coil, or it zips back to home.

    #11 8 years ago
    Quoted from Dr_of_Style:

    ok, I assume we are talkin bout a regular step/down unit.
    the big coil steps up. and small coil steps down, or returns to home. the ratchet gear has a clock spring on it to return to home.
    each time the big coil fires, it moves the ratchet gear forward one step. then levers hold it there.
    you can move the unit one step at a time by moving the arm towards the coil. the rivits shud line up on each step.
    same thing in reverse with small coil, or it zips back to home.

    The one in the backbox is only one coil and it just goes one direction indefinitely. I've never seen this style before. It has many gears on it like a drum of gears.

    #12 8 years ago

    I had to run home and check on something, the coin switches are fine.

    #13 8 years ago

    Did you completely remove the fiber board/wiper or just loosen screws? There are 3 ways to mount the wiper. 2 out of 3 runs into big issues...

    #14 8 years ago

    The unit in the back box with only one coil is prob the match unit? guessing, that needs to work properly too.
    does it have a bell hangin from it?
    or, it may be the player unit??? thats a Gottlieb rite?
    I dont have that pin, but sounds like one or the other.
    If that is the player unit, it can be a bear to work with. lots goin on there.

    #15 8 years ago
    Quoted from pinhead52:

    Did you completely remove the fiber board/wiper or just loosen screws? There are 3 ways to mount the wiper. 2 out of 3 runs into big issues...

    I completely removed both fiberglass boards I wasn't able to remove the entire wheel (wasn't sure how) so I cleaned the gears, advanced it to expose new areas and cleaned again.

    Quoted from Dr_of_Style:

    The unit in the back box with only one coil is prob the match unit? guessing, that needs to work properly too.
    does it have a bell hangin from it?
    or, it may be the player unit??? thats a Gottlieb rite?
    I dont have that pin, but sounds like one or the other.
    If that is the player unit, it can be a bear to work with. lots goin on there.

    Yes, it looks like a nightmare as soon as I saw what it looked like I knew it was going to be problematic. I will take photos in just a bit and let you see what it looks like.

    #16 8 years ago

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    #17 8 years ago

    The player unit, as well as trip/latch relays are part of the reset sequence. So, yes, if a reset was started and never finished, it will take up where it left off when you re-apply power.

    Sometimes, when in the middle of reseting, you can manually step the player unit step up plunger a few times and get it to a point where it will take over and go back around to player 1 ball 1. But there is a lot involved in this style reset sequence going all the way through.

    But turn it on, try stepping the plunger a few times, if it takes over and then ends and goes to game over, try starting another game. Remember, instead of hitting the coin switches or start button, you can always manually push the START relay in to begin a new reset sequence.

    #18 8 years ago

    When the player unit step up ratchet is at rest, do the wiper fingers (spring loaded ice skate looking contacts) sit centered on the round rivet heads on the bakelite disc?

    #19 8 years ago

    He's removed the wiper and probably put it back wrong. Manually stepping the player unit you should be able to find player 1 ball 1 by the lifters then orient the wiper according. The outer wipers do ball in play, the inner wipers will do 3rd ball/5th ball.

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    #20 8 years ago

    For a Player Unit, at the "reset" position the first and fifth cam switch stacks will both be lifted by their respective cams.

    And that wiper disc should be nominally centered in the adjustment grooves; shouldn't need to have it cranked all the way to one end of the slots.

    Then the trick is getting the wiper back in the correct orientation. The problem with marking is that if the cam moves/steps during cleaning, then the relative positions are all off.

    Here's a ~'76 Player Unit cam in the reset position with the wiper.

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    #21 8 years ago

    Thanks guys, I'll take a look at it after Christmas. You guys are the best! I wish you and yours the best this holiday season!

    #22 8 years ago

    Here is a video of my issue. I was able to see the Player unit not completing a full circle at times so I took it apart and found the dirty culprit there. Now I can get it to do a full rotation every time. Still the same reset issue. My biggest concern is that it shouldn't be doing a reset on initial power up, correct?

    #23 8 years ago

    Since the Start relay keeps energizing, that suggests that there's maybe a stuck coin mech switch (so it's stuck trying to coin up/start a game).

    Also, one of the black, cloth-covered wires on the Player Unit wiper disc appears to be disconnected.

    Otherwise, look on the schematic for the score motor symbol ('M' in a circle), and read left to right to see all the switches that can cause it to run, then see which are closed. So for example, you'll probably see that a switch on 'S' will cause it to run, and since 'S' is energizing, the score motor keeps running. Then you find the 'S' relay on the schematic and see what causes it to energize (and you'll see that things like a coin chute switch will). The 'coin chute' switches are the ones on the coin door that are inside/below the coin rejecters (easier to see if you pull out the coin rejecter mechs).

    #24 8 years ago
    Quoted from DirtFlipper:

    look on the schematic

    Ah, I hate the S word. One of these years I will be able to read them. I actually plan on taking a night class at a local college but time is the biggest issue. If I could read one of those, I would have a lot less broken EMs.

    I removed the coin mechs and the switches all appear to be fine.

    Yes there is a loose ground wire on the Player Unit that I need to reattach. There are two going to the Lug so it should be fine as is but I do not plan on leaving it hanging. I managed to get the Player Unit to quit spinning but now I am just down to a few of the other problems. I am uploading a video now that I will link in a few minutes.

    #25 8 years ago

    It's not a ground wire, it's the wire that bridges the signal between the two "snowshoes" (as Gottlieb calls them).

    #26 8 years ago
    Quoted from DirtFlipper:

    It's not a ground wire, it's the wire that bridges the signal between the two "snowshoes" (as Gottlieb calls them).

    Well, then that could be my whole problem then.

    1 week later
    #28 8 years ago
    Quoted from DirtFlipper:

    It's not a ground wire, it's the wire that bridges the signal between the two "snowshoes" (as Gottlieb calls them).

    I fixed this wire and it is definitely not what is causing the reset. I spent a lot of time at the coin switches, the jones plug that has the coin switches, and start button. There is nothing out of whack there that I can see. I also spent some time looking at a schematic and am more confused than ever with those damn things.

    #29 8 years ago
    Quoted from futurepinhead:

    I fixed this wire and it is definitely not what is causing the reset.

    No, it wouldn't. That was just a collateral observation in the video. That would have caused a problem reaching Game Over though (when it gets that far).

    Is the Start relay still energizing repeatedly?

    #30 8 years ago
    Quoted from DirtFlipper:

    No, it wouldn't. That was just a collateral observation in the video. That would have caused a problem reaching Game Over though (when it gets that far).

    What I noticed immediately is when I fixed this wire, the Ball lights started working again.

    Quoted from DirtFlipper:

    Is the Start relay still energizing repeatedly?

    It depends. Half the time, the Player Unit will fire continuously and spin around indefinitely. When it does that, the Start Relay does not fire.
    The other half of the time, the Player Unit will find its stopping point and at that point the Start Relay starts up, as well as the motor in the bottom of the cab and the Bonus Stepper on the bottom of the playfield.

    I just had someone message me and tell me to check the ax/bx relay.

    #31 8 years ago

    I'm not sure Lawman has an AX or BX relay, being a '71 game.

    Post a schematic snippet of the path to the Start relay and one of the path to Add Player Unit.

    #32 8 years ago
    Quoted from DirtFlipper:

    I'm not sure Lawman has an AX or BX relay, being a '71 game.
    Post a schematic snippet of the path to the Start relay and one of the path to Add Player Unit.

    I can do that. Thanks Dirt, I'm coming to give you a beer sometime.

    #33 8 years ago

    Here's some photos. I couldn't even find the Start Relay on it. But hopefully I captured it.

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    #34 8 years ago

    So the Control Bank isn't resetting? (this is the relay bank at the front of the cabinet, in the bottom)

    Manually reset it, then turn the game on and see what happens (this should prevent it from running when just turned on). Then when you start a game, the Start relay (S) should trip, the score motor should run, the SB relay should trip, the score reels reset, the Player Unit reset, then the Control Bank should reset to complete the reset sequence.

    But it looks like the Control Bank isn't resetting, so that's going to be one of the switches along the path to the Control Bank Reset (bottom of the schematic). SB Armature switch not closing is a common cause, but could also be the P5A switch, or the score motor 4C switch. And also make sure the fuse for it is good. Might check the fuse first actually.

    (And the 'S' relay is about 3 inches away from your finger in the first picture.)

    2 weeks later
    #35 8 years ago

    Hey guys, sorry I haven't updated in awhile. I switched projects to get some fresh eyes on it when I came back. I did notice it is the 2nd player on the Control Bank that is firing continuously, Not SB like I had previously mentioned. I checked the control bank and it looks like all switches are where they should be. I played with them a lot today and they seem to be fine.

    I also checked all fuses out of the fuse holders and when they were in the fuse holders. I found 6 fuses total. I will post some videos and pics in a new comment from my phone.

    #36 8 years ago


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    #37 8 years ago

    Since the Start relay is continuously energizing, that still really suggests that one of the coin chute switches is stuck closed, or is shorted against something (which I think is where we were a month ago). Or the replay button is stuck closed. That's also why it keeps trying to add a second player too.

    What's on the coin door? Are all the mechs present?

    Something is giving it a continuous start, so look at the trip wires for the coin chutes, the replay button, stuff in that area that could be touching or shorted.

    #38 8 years ago
    Quoted from DirtFlipper:

    he replay button, stuff in that area that could be touching or shorted.

    I think you may have got it there. That makes complete sense. Forgive me, I am very sleep deprived, I woke up at 4 am and drove 12 hours to get 4 games today. So further testing will be needed tomorrow.

    When I got back, I tested the continuity on the start switch from one leaf to the other and I was getting continuity. I shouldn't be getting a connection until the button is pressed.

    #39 8 years ago

    Ok, I think we found the problem, just need to find the solution.
    Take a look at the video and see if I'm right.
    Tomorrow, I'll start removing things and see if I can find the short. There is nothing visible so I'll have to dig deeper.

    #40 8 years ago

    Is the coin door Jones plug unplugged?

    I don't always trust continuity testing, since there can be "back channel" paths present, unless/until the other 'end' of the circuit is disconnected (i.e., an open switch can still show continuity because it's find a path all the way back around to the other side the long way).

    But I see that the coin mech brackets are still present. Can you post some pictures of those and the switches in them?

    When you power the game up, does it immediately start try to start/reset? If you unplug the coin door Jones plug, then does it stop doing that?

    #41 8 years ago
    Quoted from DirtFlipper:

    Is the coin door Jones plug unplugged?
    I don't always trust continuity testing, since there can be "back channel" paths present, unless/until the other 'end' of the circuit is disconnected (i.e., an open switch can still show continuity because it's find a path all the way back around to the other side the long way).
    But I see that the coin mech brackets are still present. Can you post some pictures of those and the switches in them?
    When you power the game up, does it immediately start try to start/reset? If you unplug the coin door Jones plug, then does it stop doing that?

    I checked the continuity on the Bank a Ball right beside it and it had no continuity on that switch when open, that's what got me suspicious. The coin door does have a Jones plug. I disconnected it once to see what it would do and it just brings on lights like it should when it is just turned on. Yes as soon as I turn on the game at the power switch, it goes directly into the reset/start. I can post pictures of the coin switches when I go home for lunch.

    #42 8 years ago
    Quoted from futurepinhead:

    I disconnected it once to see what it would do and it just brings on lights like it should when it is just turned on. Yes as soon as I turn on the game at the power switch, it goes directly into the reset/start.

    Ok, so then that further confirms the issue is with the start circuit being stuck. I'd guess it's one of the coin mech switches stuck closed, or maybe the lockout wire shorted to one of them.

    #43 8 years ago

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    #44 8 years ago

    Tuck the fishpaper back underneath the trip wire on the mech closest to the hinge. (So it matches the one on the left.)

    #45 8 years ago

    You did it again Dirt. Alright it fires up now like it should. I will play a couple games tonight or tomorrow to make sure the Player Unit is working correctly.

    Thanks a lot, I greatly appreciate it.

    #46 8 years ago

    Excellent. Have fun playing it.

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