Toronto, ON
Ah yes, the pf hooks. Check those for sure. I had a rocky abd bullwinkle that was doing funny things because of those
(Topic ID: 332409)
Linked Games
Last Action Hero
Data East, 1993
Topic Gallery
Glenview, IL
Just to add some clarification, my game has the original Gun and Smart Missile buttons, and I also have both of those connectors, the one with all the orange wires, printer connector perhaps, and also found the other one with the purple orange black and grey wires not connected to anything. My game works 100% so I can add verification that those connectors are indeed normally not connected to anything. I also have the shaker motor installed and working and those connectors to not have any connection to the shaker. Thought it might help eliminate that as an issue.
Quoted from kvan99:Yep...that turns the spotlight on the MPU itself. So you need to break out the schematics to see where the circuit for the flipper switch is on the MPU. I must say though a closed flipper switch may or may not be something that may impact the game play. But we have no other leads now.
Also, I wouldn't worry about the 2 connectors, the orange one is for the printer, the other I'm not sure about. But the game is playing solid with the exception of the slam tilt issue. So disregard them for now and zero in on the issue with the right flipper.
I checked my machine the only active switch should the crane limit switch #9, since the crane is parked and activating it.
One last thing, the slam tilt issue is documented in pinwki, so check the pic I attached and make sure it's not happening in your game. Btw, they're talking about the hooks that are attached to the pf that go in the slot on the lockdown bracket.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
So I got this machine from a guy who fried a bunch of chips on the MPU doing soldering with the machine plugged in. What happened is when the machine booted up, a whole row or column of switches would fire at once, triggering slam tilt. I found someone from our pinball league who said he could do board work and fix the MPU. He replaced a ton of chips and said the MPU is 100% fixed. However, the unplugging of the connectors on the flipper board, and then on the MPU, really seems to point the finger at the MPU still not being fixed. He really doesn't want to admit that he could've possibly missed something on the MPU, so we will see what happens with it. I paid him $250 for parts and labor to repair the board. Now it's seeming I should have gotten the reproduction rotten dog board for $400. I guess my question now is does anyone on here do board work on Data East MPUs?
As for the playfield screw dropping down and hitting a switch, I've already verified this isn't happening. I've gone thru the whole playfield multiple times and found a couple diodes that were possibly getting shorted and bent them out of the way of the metal or wire. That didn't fix it. I also screwed down all lightbulb brackets and any switches that had too much play. I verified all solder joints are intact. I made sure no wires are getting crunched in the sides of the playfield when lifting and closing it. So all signs point to the MPU still having some bad chips.
Chris Hibler is an excellent tech here at Pinside--he might be the guy to fix your board. Def worth reaching out to him to discuss.
Quoted from frunch:Chris Hibler is an excellent tech here at Pinside--he might be the guy to fix your board. Def worth reaching out to him to discuss.
http://chrishiblerpinball.com/
I contacted Chris Hibler a few days ago and he thinks it's a shorted diode or switch or pinched wire causing the slam tilt. He's willing to take a look at the MPU if I ship it to him. However, from talking to some pinball techs I play league with, they were saying that if it's the MPU causing the right flipper switch 64 to stay on, then every switch in that row would also be getting triggered. Which is what happened after the MPU had been zapped by the previous owner working on it. We did find a pinched wire that had been clamped underneath the ball trough. We taped the wires up and got them out of the way of the trough so it wouldn't happen again. We were hoping this would be the fix for the slam tilt, but sadly I did get a slam tilt later that night (during multiball, had a ball or 2 in the pop bumpers, not much else, I may have just drained one). Tonight I played it for 2 hours and haven't had a slam tilt at all. So maybe there are multiple causes for it, and they're gradually being worked out?
I did have one mechanical mishap tonight while playing, which I've seen many times before at this point. I lock a ball in the crane lock. Then shortly after for some reason the locked ball gets released, and I have an unintentional 2 ball multiball. After I drain one of the balls I get a grim reaper on the screen and it says "Death Save" and gives me 3 million points. A guide I read said this "Death Save" happens as an outlane ball save. But I interpret this to mean the game is thinking I did an actual death save by nudging the ball back out of the ball trough. Can anyone clarify if the locked balls in the crane are ever supposed to get released for any other reason than multiball? Perhaps this is a ball chase and the game is releasing the ball since it thinks a ball is missing (although it never goes into a ball search)? I'm also curious about how "Death Save" works. Finally, someone mentioned that I should replace ball trough 7 switch whether it's working or not. I've ordered one of these switches, and I've also ordered the anti magnetic plastic insert for the ball trough. There's also a Data East opto board for the ball trough that was developed by a pinsider, I plan on getting that as well to further eliminate any problems with the ball trough.
https://www.actionpinball.com/parts.php?item=180-5118-01
https://pinside.com/pinball/market/shops/1256-upkick-pinball/05597-trough-anti-magnetic-shim-acrylic-data-east-sega
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/interest-check-data-east-ball-trough-opto-board-
Okay I think I have finally found the issue. There's a completely missing diode on the center scoop. I don't understand how all the functionality is still working for this scoop (I hit it for chicken and other shots all the time). Anyway I'm going to solder on a new diode this weekend and play it a whole lot to see if the slam tilt is finally cleared.
On the switch matrix this is middle scoop right #58. So for this to form a box with slam tilt #7, it would require left flipper #63 and 4th coin #2 (I don't even know what this is... the coin door is disconnected from the harness also). Anyway were finally getting somewhere. Thanks for your patience and your help.
20230323_221138 (resized).jpg20230323_221206 (resized).jpg20230323_221257 (resized).jpg20230323_221347 (resized).jpgScreenshot_20230323_215247_Chrome (resized).jpgQuoted from frunch:Persistence pays off! Glad you appear to have found the culprit, def looking forward to the next update!
Alright well it's confirmed that it was the missing diode on the center scoop which was causing the slam tilt. After soldering on a new diode, there has been no more slam tilt. This issue is finally fixed. I appreciate all the help and patience of the community on this one.
The issue I'm battling with now is the ball Trough 7 switch. The only source I found for the replacement switch was Action Pinball. However, that switch doesn't just work out of the box. The existing switch in the cabinet is bent into a very curved hook shape. I've been trying to finesse the new switch into a similar shape, but it always ends up the ball isn't putting enough pressure on the switch and gets lost, or the ball gets stuck on top of the switch while it's resting. Anybody got any advice here? And is there any better alternative for this switch? Here's a pic of the switch I pulled out of the machine. The new switch is now bent into a similar shape, and we naively cut it down a bit at the beginning since it was getting caught on the top edge of the little window it sits in. Now I'm thinking I should buy another one and start over. But like I said it didn't work out of the box, didn't work when the top edge was cut off, etc. I guess I'm just gonna have to keep messing with it until it both registers properly and doesn't get the ball stuck on it.
180-5118-01 (resized).jpg20230325_200254 (resized).jpgCongrats on conquering the slam tilt, nothing like putting an intermittent problem like that to rest.
Did you add the shim to the ball trough (or sand out any divots on it)? Might have to get another switch and try again. I recall that particular switch also being a problem on my buddy's LAH for a while. It probably was some amount of bending/tweaking the actuator until it was just right. I remember having to go at that one quite a few times before success. Note that the whole trough assembly can be removed for easier servicing.
Quoted from frunch:Congrats on conquering the slam tilt, nothing like putting an intermittent problem like that to rest.
Did you add the shim to the ball trough (or sand out any divots on it)? Might have to get another switch and try again. I recall that particular switch also being a problem on my buddy's LAH for a while. It probably was some amount of bending/tweaking the actuator until it was just right. I remember having to go at that one quite a few times before success. Note that the whole trough assembly can be removed for easier servicing.
That's a good point about the shim. It may give just enough extra slope to get the ball pushing up against the trough 7 switch to where it stops getting lost. I didn't add that yet but I will and I'll keep tweaking the switch itself til I get it sorted out.
Also I searched thru every post I could find on pinside about flippers not being able to change lanes. Since we ruled out the flipper board and the flippers themselves, I kept reading that for many people it was the opto couplers on the driver board. However, they always said the switch wouldn't come up in the switch test. Very strange that it shows as stuck on in active playfield / playfield status. Anyway, is that what we're looking at for this issue, a driver board or MPU issue? Also I heard that if it was an MPU issue that all switches in the same row or column should be firing. Which as I've said is what the machine was doing before the MPU was repaired. So does that leave the driver board as the most likely candidate? Can I unplug some connectors from the MPU to try and narrow that down like we did with the Flipper board?
Edit: Looks like this was a newbie question since the driver board is another name for the power supply board? In which case there would be no disconnecting it from the MPU to do a switch test...
No worries--there's a lot of overlap in terminology and function. Some driver boards are also the MPU/CPU, and so on. But yes, in this case it appears we'll need to narrow down if the problem is on the MPU or the flipper board on the side of the cabinet. I was thinking it could be an optocoupler...they're used on a lot of games to monitor the flippers without interfering with the circuit. I think they design it that way to eliminate the extra physical switches for the lane change feature, and whatever problems can crop up from their use. Either way--the next thing we'll need to do is track down that optocoupler, which is likely on the MPU or flipper board. I'll see what I can find out and post back later.
Quoted from frunch:No worries--there's a lot of overlap in terminology and function. Some driver boards are also the MPU/CPU, and so on. But yes, in this case it appears we'll need to narrow down if the problem is on the MPU or the flipper board on the side of the cabinet. I was thinking it could be an optocoupler...they're used on a lot of games to monitor the flippers without interfering with the circuit. I think they design it that way to eliminate the extra physical switches for the lane change feature, and whatever problems can crop up from their use. Either way--the next thing we'll need to do is track down that optocoupler, which is likely on the MPU or flipper board. I'll see what I can find out and post back later.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we already ruled out the flipper board since the right flipper #64 switch was still coming up even with the flipper signal wire disconnected from the flipper board, then with the flipper board connectors disconnected, and finally with the CN8 and CN10 connectors disconnected from the MPU itself. Also, the little 3 pronged transistors on the flipper board were already replaced, which was also a common cause of the lane change issue in other threads. So I'm pretty sure the issue has to be with the MPU, or one of the other boards in the backbox. I will take a look at the MPU schematics as well and try to decipher them too.
Oh yeah, forgot we tried that. It would appear that the problem would be on the MPU, then. Not exactly sure where to look on the MPU but I'll see what I can find.
Also, could you post the links you've been following for help with this problem? I might be able to pick up something from them.
Quoted from frunch:Oh yeah, forgot we tried that. It would appear that the problem would be on the MPU, then. Not exactly sure where to look on the MPU but I'll see what I can find.
Also, could you post the links you've been following for help with this problem? I might be able to pick up something from them.
This seems to be the best thread on the subject. Although it's for Terminator 2, the issue ended up being one of the 4N25 opto couplers.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/tech-help-t2-not-advancing-lanes
Edit: This is another possibly useful Terminator 2 thread. Not sure why that issue happened so much on that game.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/t2-flipper-works-but-not-flipper-switch
And a useful thread for Gilligan's Island. Sorry no Data East threads that I can find.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/no-change-lane-and-cant-introduce-initials
This is a Data East one but it was the transistors on the flipper board that were the problem. As I said these have been replaced. Plus we ruled this out already.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/data-east-wwf-royal-rumble-flipper-problem
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/flipper-switches-won%E2%80%99t-register-high-score-initials
Edit #1 million: I've found the flippers mentioned in CN19 and CN20 of the MPU. Perhaps this is where we should be looking on the MPU?
Screenshot_20230329_104055_Adobe Acrobat (resized).jpgScreenshot_20230329_104749_Adobe Acrobat (resized).jpgWait a sec--i think we've been overlooking something for a little while here. The wiring for the left and right scoops shows a problem. As far as I can tell, you're left scoop is wired correctly: the green wires go to the middle lug, white/brown wire goes to left lug, banded side of diode on the right lug, non-banded side of of the diode on the left lug, shared with the white/brown wire. Screenshot_20230329-171019.png
Now, I know you've installed a diode on the right scoop switch, but if you left the wiring the same--you still have a problem:
Screenshot_20230329-171045.png
See that wire on the right lug? It shouldn't be there at all! What color combo is it? White/red by any chance? If so--it shouldn't be on that lug, it should actually be sharing the left lug with the other white/red wire. If it's a different color combo, then we need to figure out where it goes. Given it is the white/red that I suspect it is, here's how to wire it correctly:
Left lug: *both* white/red wires *and* the non-banded side of the diode
Center lug: 2 green/grey wires
Right lug: banded-side of the diode and *no wires*
Hopefully that's it???? 
Quoted from frunch:Wait a sec--i think we've been overlooking something for a little while here. The wiring for the left and right scoops shows a problem. As far as I can tell, you're left scoop is wired correctly: the green wires go to the middle lug, white/brown wire goes to left lug, banded side of diode on the right lug, non-banded side of of the diode on the left lug, shared with the white/brown wire. [quoted image]
Now, I know you've installed a diode on the right scoop switch, but if you left the wiring the same--you still have a problem:
[quoted image]
See that wire on the right lug? It shouldn't be there at all! What color combo is it? White/red by any chance? If so--it shouldn't be on that lug, it should actually be sharing the left lug with the other white/red wire. If it's a different color combo, then we need to figure out where it goes. Given it is the white/red that I suspect it is, here's how to wire it correctly:
Left lug: *both* white/red wires *and* the non-banded side of the diode
Center lug: 2 green/grey wires
Right lug: banded-side of the diode and *no wires*
Hopefully that's it????
So here's the scoop (get it?). I now see that the white wire from the right lug of the center/right scoop goes to a cabinet wiring terminal which has a diode. The white and brown wires from the left lugs of both scoops are then both feeding into the same terminal. The white wire from the right lug of the center/right scoop goes to the banded sided of the diode. Both white/brown wires from each scoop go to the non banded side of the diode. The center/right scoop has a single green wire coming off of it and the left scoop has 2 green wires coming out of it. I completely missed this diode before. So now it begs the question of whether I made a mistake by soldering a diode here? It seemed to fix the slam tilt. But now I'm wondering if it's just been hiding again for a while.
20230329_174845 (resized).jpg20230329_175445 (resized).jpg20230329_180305 (resized).jpgSo yeah its looking like adding that diode was a mistake. However the slam tilt does appear to be fixed. My friend Tony who has been working on it with me suggested that maybe it was ball trough 7 switch that was causing the slam tilt. This theory checks out because ball trough 7 is literally right next to slam tilt in the switch matrix. So I guess we just need to remove that diode and get that ball trough 7 switch bent correctly. Still doesn't explain the right flipper issue but at this point I am probably willing to let that go.
Edit: I snipped off that extra diode and adjusted the ball 7 trough switch again. The slam tilt is still gone. So it does seem it was the ball 7 trough switch going bad. It does have a lot of play in it so maybe it was shorting itself out or something. Nice job noticing the extra wire on the scoop.
2 months later
I'm still chasing after this slam tilt issue. I replaced the Left Lock Bottom #23 and Left Lock Top #22 switches because Left Lock Top was showing as stuck closed in switch test. I'm still getting an occasional slam tilt, generally when the ball is bouncing around in the slingshots or pop bumpers. I found the diode on ball trough #6 was broken on one side and not making good contact. So I'm going to solder on a new one and see what that does.
Anyway, can one of you tell me if this diode is on backwards for ball trough 7? I still don't really know how to tell which direction a diode should be pointing.
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