(Topic ID: 204703)

Laser Ball: Drop Target bank help

By Brewchap

6 years ago


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  • 59 posts
  • 2 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Brewchap
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There are 59 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 6 years ago

I have a Laser Ball pin that I have been working on for some time now, almost a year. I tried fixing the system 6 boards and got to the point that I bought an Rottendog MPU327. Now the pin starts, but there is still a few issues that I thought that a new board would fix. I still have a (one) pop bumper , 2 kickers and the 3 drop target banks not working. (and a kicker that shorts out)

I thought that I should tackle one problem at a time and start with the Drop Target, but I don't know where to start. I had hoped that the boards replacement would have fixed all this.

#2 6 years ago

Does it not reset when a game starts, or not register, or not reset after you knock them down?

#3 6 years ago

No sir, it does not. Right now I am doing the coils test in the diag menu to test all solenoids. This is how I know that the other solenoids are not working also.

#4 6 years ago

If they don't fire in coil test, go for the basic stuff: voltage at the coil, jump the transistor tabs in the backbox, etc

#5 6 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

If they don't fire in coil test, go for the basic stuff: voltage at the coil, jump the transistor tabs in the backbox, etc

How do you jump the transistor? And how will I know which transistor to jump? Easy to find on the system 6 assy drawings, I don't know how the Rottendog is set up.

#6 6 years ago

I "think" that the transistors are labeled the same as the system 6 boards.

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

I "think" that the transistors are labeled the same as the system 6 boards.

After checking their site, it looks like it uses fets instead of transistors so you might not be able to jump them.

A similar test would just be jumping the coil connected to the non banded side of its diode to ground. Just take a wire, attach one side to ground (the ground strap is easiest) and touch the other side to the coil to make sure it fires. If it has voltage at the banded side of the coil but won't fire when you ground it then you've got a problem with the coil.

Grounding the transistors is better because it also takes the connectors and wiring into account but if grounding the coil doesn't even work then that's a problem.

#8 6 years ago

Thank you for your advice zacaj. I took a spare wire and attached it to the grounding strap. I grounded out 3 coils which fired until I developed a dead short blowing the fuse on the power supply. This pin will be the death of me. lol

#9 6 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

Thank you for your advice zacaj. I took a spare wire and attached it to the grounding strap. I grounded out 3 coils which fired until I developed a dead short blowing the fuse on the power supply. This pin will be the death of me. lol

Dead short is probably one of three things:
- bad diode on the coil
- bad (shorted) coil
- you jumped the wrong side of the coil (banded side of the diode)

Which 3 coils fired and which was the problem?

#10 6 years ago

I fired solenoids #02, 20, and 22 before I tried to fire #04 (drop target) is when I found that the fuse was blown. At this time I can't replace the fuse without it blowing. Somethings is touching somewhere.

#11 6 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

I fired solenoids #02, 20, and 22 before I tried to fire #04 (drop target) is when I found that the fuse was blown. At this time I can't replace the fuse without it blowing. Somethings is touching somewhere.

So were 20+22 two of the ones that wouldn't fire normally?

Try disconnecting 2J11 and 2J12, see if the fuse still blows. If it doesn't, then you know you've got a short somewhere in the coils. You can try leaving only one of those connectors in to try and narrow it down. Also try disconnecting the 04 coil first since it was the last thing you touched, see if the fuse still blows.

To avoid wasting fuses, there's a test you can do that can often confirm whether a short still exists without needing to turn the game on: wth the game off, check the resistance between the black and orange wires going to the solenoid rectifier (mounted below the PSU in the backbox). If there's a short blowing the solenoid fuse then you'll get a low resistance.

#12 6 years ago

h

#13 6 years ago

ok I typed this thing 3 times all ready. not sure what is going on. lol

2J12 #22 blows fuse

2J11 with all (grey) wires disconnected on the solenoids , the fuse keep blowing. I found that with the playfield disconnected the fuse does not blow. off to narrow it down a bit more

#14 6 years ago

2J11 info is not correct. Found gray wire touching solenoid. back to testing.

#15 6 years ago

2J11 #06, 07 and 08 blows fuses.

(2J12 #22 blows fuse)

So over all I got a total of 4 shorts.....

#16 6 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

2J11 #06, 07 and 08 blows fuses.
(2J12 #22 blows fuse)
So over all I got a total of 4 shorts.....

Take one of the coils out and clip off the diode. Test the diode both ways, see if it's good. Check the resistance of the coil (usually you can find the proper resistance online to compare). Hopefully one of those is bad and it'll explain your problem...

#17 6 years ago

2J11 #06, 07, both diodes tested bad, and the coils tested good per http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Testing_a_coil
2J11 #08 and 2J12 #22, Both diodes tested good but replaced and the coils tested good per pinwiki.

Going to install 2J11 #06, 07 (dbl drop target bank) to test.

#18 6 years ago

Still blowing fuses. Tested the gray wires to ground and they ohm to ground.

#19 6 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

Still blowing fuses. Tested the gray wires to ground and they ohm to ground.

Do they still ohm to ground with the solenoid connectors on the driver board unplugged?

#20 6 years ago

zacaj, After double checking my findings, I found that I had the meter set in the wrong position.
I also checked the wires up to the board connector and no problems.

#21 6 years ago

Did the diodes blow again when you blew the fuse? Or do all four coils+diodes test fine now?

#22 6 years ago

One diode blew out of the four. All coils and diodes test good now.

I tested each coil one at a time to determine if the fuse would blow or not.

#23 6 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

One diode blew out of the four. All coils and diodes test good now.

Try swapping two of the pins in one of the solenoid connectors so that one of the good coils is fired when one of the drop coils would be. If it still blows I would test the transistors. It's possible the bad diode blew one.

#24 6 years ago

Do you test a fet the same way as a transistor?

#25 6 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

Do you test a fet the same way as a transistor?

I'm not sure which legs specifically to test but if you just check all six ways the test should work the same. Still a chance with fets or transistors that it won't catch it but a good chance it will

#26 6 years ago

I found a way to test the Fet. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-test-a-fet-transistor

I'm going to read this again just to wrap my head around it.

Quoted from zacaj:

Try swapping two of the pins in one of the solenoid connectors so that one of the good coils is fired when one of the drop coils would be. If it still blows I would test the transistors. It's possible the bad diode blew one.

Still working on this one

#27 6 years ago

I identified 4 Fet's and the "Q" numbers on the Rottendog seems to match that of an system 6 board.

#28 6 years ago

So I have pulled and ordered replacement fet's, so it will be a week or so before I can start back on troubleshoot the Drop Targets. So I turned my attention to the lone pop bumper that will not fire. I have 27 volts on the switch. The coil ohm out good and the diode is good but was replaced anyways. Grounding the switch will not make it fire either. What would keep it from firing?

#29 6 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

So I have pulled and ordered replacement fet's, so it will be a week or so before I can start back on troubleshoot the Drop Targets. So I turned my attention to the lone pop bumper that will not fire. I have 27 volts on the switch. The coil ohm out good and the diode is good but was replaced anyways. Grounding the switch will not make it fire either. What would keep it from firing?

You shouldn't have any voltage at the switch, it should just be connected to ground. (the skirt switch, not the other one that's closed by the yolk)

Does the coil fire in coil test or if you ground the coil like you did the other ones? If it won't fire there then there's no use in testing the switch

#30 6 years ago

No sir, the coil does not fire in the coil test or fire when grounded. Sorry, after reading my last post, I made a mistake saying that the switch had voltage. I meant that the coil had voltage.

#31 6 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

No sir, the coil does not fire in the coil test or fire when grounded. Sorry, after reading my last post, I made a mistake saying that the switch had voltage. I meant that the coil had voltage.

I assume it's physically free... My only other suggestion would be to swap two pop bumper coils and see if the problem follows the coil or not.

#32 6 years ago

I swapped two pop bumper coils as suggested, but the problem did not follow. For peace of mind, I thought that I will change the 2J12 connector out that attaches to the Rottendog board. The pop bumper and two other coils (#20 and #5) that are not firing, is own this same connector.

#33 6 years ago

When you say it does not fire when grounded, what are you grounding specifically?

#34 6 years ago

Bottom set of switches in the stack.

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#35 6 years ago

Sorry, when I said ground it, I meant the lug of the coil, not the lug of the switch

#36 6 years ago

Here we go! The pop bumper fired this time. I also blew the fuse I guess cause I held the ground to long to the lug. I also blown the diode because the fuse blows right away.

#37 6 years ago

What does the resistor and the capacitor do for the pop bumper?

#38 6 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

What does the resistor and the capacitor do for the pop bumper?

Something about steadying the signal for the driver board to detect the switch properly, but neither switch or the resistor / capacitor should affect the solenoid's ability to fire in test mode or when you ground the non banded side of the diode.

#39 6 years ago

I replaced 2 coils today and now have all the coils firing when I ground to the non banded side of the diode. If the coils are firing now in this manner would the resistor / capacitor now be suspect?

#40 6 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

I replaced 2 coils today and now have all the coils firing when I ground to the non banded side of the diode. If the coils are firing now in this manner would the resistor / capacitor now be suspect?

Once they fire in coil test as well then the switch will be suspect.

Grounding the coil makes sure the coil and power wiring is good. Coil test makes sure the driver on the board is good. Then can check if the switch fires it, which could be a problem with the switch or the board.

1 week later
#41 6 years ago

I have great news! All solenoid now fire in the coil test and all switches work. All 3 drop target banks work and reset at game start up. During game play 2 drop target banks do not reset once all targets are down. What do I need to look for to fix this issue?

#42 6 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

I have great news! All solenoid now fire in the coil test and all switches work. All 3 drop target banks work and reset at game start up. During game play 2 drop target banks do not reset once all targets are down. What do I need to look for to fix this issue?

If you haven't yet, you'll want to take all the pcbs off the drop target mechs and clean them with metal polish (and wipe it off with a paper towel till it comes away clean). Clean the horseshoe contacts too and make sure they're bent enough to make good contact with the boards. You can also buy new boards or contacts if one keeps giving you trouble.

#43 6 years ago

Zacaj, I had a set of pcbs that was installed upside down keeping the drop targets from resetting. My wife is now playing the pin, pointing out what needs to be adjusted. She looks to be having a blast!

I wanted to thank you for your help and taking the time to answer my questions as I learned how to repair this pin. Without your help, I'm sure that this pin would still be in a non-working condition. Thank you very much for your help sir!

#44 6 years ago

I have some question concerning game play. I get random tilts, random awards of new games and the high score remain 50,000 even after beating the high score. Strange stuff.

#45 6 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

I have some question concerning game play. I get random tilts, random awards of new games and the high score remain 50,000 even after beating the high score. Strange stuff.

I don't think the default high score is 50k, is it possible you're missing a digit or something weird? Display test runs fine? If so I'd suspect one of your rom or ram chips or sockets is flaky somehow, but that's still weird.

#46 6 years ago

Thats my fault, it was a type-o

#47 6 years ago

Random tilts is usually a switch matrix issue. Next time it happens, immediately then the game off and note which drop targets, etc are down, then go into switch test and start hitting other switches to see if any registers wrong.

I had an issue on one of my games that only occurred when a specific combination of three drop targets were down and then another specific switch was hit.

#48 6 years ago

This is what I found so far. It seems that the roll over stars is causing the problems.

Star number 1 causes the Tilt and Left Kicker to activate.
Star number 5 cause the Drop Targets to reset.
Star number 7 cause the Drop Target to reset and the Upper Kicker to activate.
Stars number 6, 8 and 10 do not score.

Also activating the Stars can produce random awards of new games, but not one stands out as the cause.

#49 6 years ago

I tested all the diodes and they tested good. Surely this will not be another board problem because I'm not sure where to look.

#50 6 years ago

No obvious pattern to those.. Which upper kicker? Which drop targets?

6,8,10 not registering could just be dirty contacts as easily as a matrix problem

We also don't know which tilt is being activated..

Can you get what numbers these are actually triggering from the switch test?

The next thing I'd do is unplug the switch matrix connectors and try to trigger those stars directly on the board with a jumper wire to find out for sure whether it's the board or the playfield, but I'd bet it's something on the playfield.

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