(Topic ID: 306324)

Lamp circuit riddle on Bally Monte Carlo

By TimMe

2 years ago



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  • 7 posts
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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by TimMe
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Monte Carlo even odd lights (resized).jpg
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#1 2 years ago

Here's a fun one for all you circuit gurus to puzzle out. Maybe you've already come across this one, but if not, I hope you find this interesting and informative.

I've been working on rebuilding a Bally Monte Carlo, and today I came across an unusual wrinkle in a portion of the lamp circuit. This may have been a (benign) design error, or it may have been intentional. Either way, I think it is interesting because this circuit does not behave how I expected. In fact, at first I thought something needed fixing, but after doing some troubleshooting and testing, it turned out that everything was working the way it should. I will post an update on how I figured this out in the next day or so.

Here is a description of the wrinkle, along with a schematic snippet. Note: The snippet has been simplified a bit for clarity, but all of the relevant circuitry is shown.

On this game, there are ten numbers you need to make. Five of the numbers are odd (1, 3, 5, 7, 9) and the other five are even (2, 4, 6, 8, 10). There are two kick-out holes, one for the five odd numbers, and the other for the five even numbers.

Each hole has five "spot" number inserts associated with it. During the game, each hole will have one of its five spot number inserts lit. If the ball goes into a kickout hole, whatever number is currently lit will be spotted (made) if the player has not previously made that number.

The lit spot number at each kick-out hole changes each time 10 points are made. On the schematic, you can see the wiper and rivets on the 00-90 unit disc that select the lit numbers.

Also on the schematic, you can see a reference to two trip relays called the ALL EVENS TRIP RELAY and ALL ODDS TRIP RELAY that actuate when all five numbers of each group are completed. There is a lamp control switch on each of these relays (highlighted in yellow on the schematic) that opens when each relay is tripped. The purpose of each of these switches seems to be to shut off the completed group of spot lamps for each kick-out hole.

The wrinkle is this: If you make all of the odd numbers, the ALL ODDS TRIP RELAY will trip and its lamp control switch will open, but the odd spot lamps will continue to stay lit if any even numbers are still lit. Similarly, if you make all the even numbers, the ALL EVENS TRIP RELAY will trip and its lamp control switch will open, but the even spot lamps will continue to stay lit if any odd numbers are still lit.

However, if you manage to make all ten numbers, and BOTH trip relays actuate, then all ten spot lamps for both kick-out holes will indeed go out.

The trip relays are definitely tripping, and the highlighted lamp control switches are indeed opening, but somehow all the spot lamps still get power if only one of the two lamp control switches is opened. Can you see why?

MonteCarloSpotLamps (resized).jpgMonteCarloSpotLamps (resized).jpg

- TimMe

#2 2 years ago

Hey Tim,
Nice to hear from you. This looks like fun...

I see a parallel path for each of the odd lights even when the "ALL ODD TRIPS RE." switch is open.

The red arrows show the obvious path through the selected (by the 00-90 unit disc) even bulb. But following the blue and then green arrows, is this another path through the odd bulbs? And you can find a similar path through each of the other odd bulbs....so all the bulbs would then be lit, though some would be lit more dimly since there would be several bulbs in series now?

monte (resized).jpgmonte (resized).jpg

#3 2 years ago

Cool. Here's another way of looking at the circuit. If the All Odds trip relay switch has opened the circuit simplifies to this:
Monte Carlo even odd lights (resized).jpgMonte Carlo even odd lights (resized).jpg
The #2 bulb sees the full 6.3 volts of the lamp circuit, but the #1 bulb sees most of the voltage since there are four parallel paths supplying it. While the #1 bulb doesn't see quite as much voltage as #2, it's probably indistinguishable from the #2 bulb when lit. Also all eight bulbs in the parallel path are seeing some small voltage and may be glowing ever so slightly.

The #1 bulb probably sees about 2/3 of the lamp circuit voltage (or about 4.2 volts) while each of the parallel bulbs sees about 1/6 of the voltage (or about 1 volt).

/Mark

#4 2 years ago

Looks alot simpler in your circuit, Mark!

#5 2 years ago

Yep, that's it! Good detective work guys.

The "phantom" selected lamp in series with the other eight parallel/series lamps actually runs at nearly full brightness. I had to watch the filament of that lamp while tripping the last number in the group in order to notice that it got just a tiny bit dimmer. It's not something I think you would ever notice while playing. The eight parallel/series lamps each have so little current flowing through them that they don't glow at all.

Once I surmised that this was how the phantom selected lamp on the completed group was staying lit, I started removing the other four lamps in the group. As I removed each one, the phantom selected lamp got dimmer and dimmer, while the remaining (unlit) group lamps started to glow dimly. When I removed all four unlit lamps in the group, the phantom selected lamp went out. So that's how I made a practical determination that this behavior was a result of the circuit design.

This really does seem to me like a mistake in the original circuit, and that Bally decided to just live with it. It seems like a very unconventional way to get this behavior on purpose. It sure had me scratching my head for a bit.

- TimMe

#6 2 years ago

This is great to see. If you have seen my thread here you know I have spent a lot of time looking at the Monte Carlo schematic. Yes, I have noticed the very strange behavior with the way the lighting behaves when different combinations of all-odds and all-evens are achieved. It was driving me crazy trying to figure out, and it very much seemed to be some sort of error in the circuit design.

My problem was, the Monte Carlo I bought had had a hard life, it had been left outside at one point, it was filthy, it had strange hacks and broken pieces all over the place, and so on. So I had to spend a lot of time troubleshooting and fixing things. There were weird gremlins that were hard to sort out, and I was never sure if this was a gremlin that I hadn’t figured out yet. It looks like it’s actually a “feature”

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-machine-complete-circuit-description-2-bally-monte-carlo

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from xsvtoys:

If you have seen my thread here you know I have spent a lot of time looking at the Monte Carlo schematic.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-machine-complete-circuit-description-2-bally-monte-carlo

I had not seen this thread before. Thanks for doing such a complete write-up! I will enjoy reading through this over the next couple of days.

It's no secret that I'm not much of a Bally EM fan, but I have to admit Monte Carlo is a good player. This was one of Jim Patla's earlier game designs, which he did in his 20s. So that's pretty impressive.

I posted a couple before-and-after pics of the game I just rebuilt in the EM hangout forum: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/what-are-you-working-on-right-now/page/46#post-6668463

- TimMe

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