(Topic ID: 249204)

Laguna Beach - too many balls


By KYBingo

11 months ago



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  • 37 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 months ago by bingopodcast
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#1 11 months ago

I have been working to resolve this problem for a while and ... *%& ... I haven't gotten it fixed yet.

When I start the machine, the ball lifter works; however, it lifts multiple balls. It lifts two and tries to lift a third but there is no room in the alley and it stops. If these ball are put into play, no other balls are lifted. I have cleaned and checked the switch under the where the balls rest before being shot. I have checked the switch in the gate at the top of the alley. I have checked the switches under the ramp (balls 1-8) and the switch under the lifter where the balls rest before being lifted.

Here is the clue that has had me scratching my head: If I take three balls out, it will lift one ball. Then if I drop a ball into the ball re-shoot hole, it will lift one ball. Drop another..and it lifts another. Drop two and it will lift two.

I know that there are a dozen jokes about balls in this somewhere.

I need some suggestions to get this game playable again. Thank you.

#2 11 months ago

I would check everything in the 'Ball lifter motor' circuits.
1. Manual lift button...... closed ?
2. Timer stepper unit..... verify it moves smoothly by manually stepping/ reseting it.
@ should reset to Zero position , then step up one rivet ( position 1).
3. Extra Ball unit........... same as above.
ScreenHunter_165 Aug. 11 18.21 (resized).jpg

#3 11 months ago

Frank, I had a problem similar to yours
In my case all the balls would lift out.
For some reason when I lifted up my playfield and then
put it back down in place this started to happen.
I moved my playfield back and forth and got it back inplace
(I guess) to the position where every thing was good.
Terry K

#4 11 months ago
Quoted from KYBingo:

When I start the machine, the ball lifter works; however, it lifts multiple balls. It lifts two and tries to lift a third but there is no room in the alley and it stops. If these ball are put into play, no other balls are lifted. I have cleaned and checked the switch under the where the balls rest before being shot. I have checked the switch in the gate at the top of the alley. I have checked the switches under the ramp (balls 1-8) and the switch under the lifter where the balls rest before being lifted.

Check the last trough switch (#8). It has a direct feed to the lifter motor on game start and might be arcing or stuck closed.

#5 11 months ago

Because this is my first machine, sometimes I need to be lead to the solution. Or in this case, to the Timer stepper unit.

Location please?

#6 11 months ago

One of these units in the picture. There should be a label near the unit to identify it.
Verify the unit moves freely when you Step & Reset it manually.
*** I mentioned this in a previous Post...

ScreenHunter_166 Aug. 12 09.30 (resized).jpg
#7 11 months ago

Thanks... I'm headed to the game room to see if I can figure this out.

#8 11 months ago

Okay...here is what I found.

The manual lift button was closed...but... there has always been this extra button on the bottom of the cabinet on the opposite side from the on/off switch. I thought that one day I would understand what it was for. That day has come. I guess that at some point there was a short of something and someone added this push button and wired it to the #8 trough switch. It acted as a manual lift button. The actual manual button does nothing. In my investigation I discovered that the wires from that switch were arching at the switch making like there was someone leaning on the manual button. Before locating this arching switch, the lifter would lift five balls.

The way I discovered this was by removing all the balls and replacing them with a strip of wood engaging all the trough switches. Then reaching into the lift chamber and pressing the switch (like there was a ball ready to be lifted) the lifter lifted and lifted and lifted. A shorter piece of wood that didn't open the #8 trough switch, again imitating a ball ready to lift, nothing happened. However, if while doing this and then pressing the #8 trough switch, the lifter lifted.

Does that make sense?

I also did check the Timer stepper unit to verify it moved smoothly by manually stepping/ resetting it.

Now the balls just drop through the playfield because the tray that moves to prevent the balls from dropping through...doesn't. I have checked the fuses. It isn't that it moves but not far enough..it doesn't move. With the playfield lifted, I can move this. It doesn't seem to be jammed.

As Rosanna Danna said, "If it isn't one thing. it is something else."

#9 11 months ago

There is a motor switch (the one closest to the shutter) that sounds like it is fouled or not making properly. It should make until the cam follower drops into the dwell on that cam.

That is, if the shutter is moving at all. If it is not, perhaps the ball guide on the bottom of the playfield is getting caught on the edge of the ball return board?

Congratulations on finding that problem. Weird add-ons are always interesting to find, and trying to put yourself in the mindset of the creator can be maddening, but I like solving a puzzle like that.

#10 11 months ago

Tomorrow I will look into it again. Thanks for heading me in the right direction. I don't think it was getting caught. I had the ball return board out while chasing the ball lifter puzzle. I will check the motor switch.

Correct me if I am wrong. The shutter moves after the first ball enters the play field. Not before. Not when the machine cycles after a coin is drop and the game begins. A ball has to enter the play field.

#11 11 months ago

Bally Bingos also had a 'knock-off' switch under the cabinet so the store owner could reset the
Replay Counter to payoff Winners when the player wanted to 'Cash out'.
Are you sure the switch in question is not a 'Knock-off' switch.
The manual Ball Lift button has a purpose.

#12 11 months ago

"I get by with a little help from my friends" - Joe Cocker

Up from the play room with this report:

My Bally Bingo does not have a "knock off" switch. Originally, I thought this ADDED switch might have been that. However, I never had a chance to test it. Now I know that it is wired to the switch for the #8 ball in the trough and acts as a manual ball lift switch. I am thinking about removing it and seeing it I can get the REAL manual ball lift switch to work.

Here is where I am with the ball lifting and no shutter (I will try to use correct terminology). I tried to follow a playing sequence to identify where the failure is happening:
1. I turn the machine on with the #8 ball not in the trough and the shutter closed.
2. I drop a coin and the the shutter opens and the #8 ball is returned to the trough. Ball one is lifted.
3. I trip the hair on the switch at the bottom of the alley and the Lifter Starter Relay clicks energized).
4. I release the hair switch at the bottom of the alley and trip the switch at the top of the alley and the Lifter Start Relay releases.
5. The shutter does not close; however, if I pull slightly on the arm on the shutter and begin the motion, the shutter will close.
6. I open a switch in a ball hole on the play field and the light lights on the card.
7. No next ball is lifted.

If I open the #8 ball switch in the trough, the next ball lifts. Same as if I pressed the ADDED switch. It's the manual mode.
Again, I checked all the fuses. I also inspected all the switches that I think are involve to insure that wires leading to them are not arcing or shorted together.

Your wise counsel is appreciated.

#13 11 months ago

Bally stopped adding knock off switches to the games around the end of '53. Laguna Beach was much later, so there would not be a factory knock off switch.

Your symptoms make it sound like the timer unit is not stepping. It should step 1 time as the initial ball is lifted to the playfield, which happens when switch 2A on the lifter motor assembly makes. As the first ball leaves the playfield, the relay closes for Lifter Start, then a ball should lift. When it does, it will step the timer again.

If the timer doesn't make the initial two steps, then balls will not be captured on the playfield, and the game won't operate properly.

#14 11 months ago

I will be looking at the timer unit on my next visit to the game room. I have the back of the game open and I have checked to make sure that it's steps and releases freely. As I start the game, before I drop a coin, the timer unit should have already advanced one step(?). Once the ball is in play and in a hole, the timer should have advanced again(?).

Do I have that right?

#15 11 months ago

The timer unit advances one step every time a ball is lifted.

#16 11 months ago

Good morning from the game room.

I have the manual out and open to the timer unit. I have checked that the unit. When the game is turned on and a coin is dropped, the unit has advanced one rivet. If I cause the machine to lift a second ball - after simulating that the first was put into play - the timer unit does not advance.

#17 11 months ago

I have tried listing additional balls but the timer unit does not advance

#18 11 months ago

Check switch 2A on your lifter motor cam.

#19 11 months ago

I have cleaned switch number two on the lifter motor cam. According to the schematic it should be normally open. It is. My thought is when the machine is turned on I should be able to close that switch and have the timer unit advance. With the machine on if I close the switch the timer unit does not advance.

#20 11 months ago

How many balls are in the trough when you turn it on? Is the anti-cheat relay engaged?

#21 11 months ago

When I turn the machine on, there are 7 balls in the trough. After a coin drop, i place the 8th ballin the trough. This is how i prevent 5 balls being lifted when i turn the machine on.

I need to be told about...and thelocation of the anti-cheat relay.

I am labeling things as I learn their physical location. I've learned to find things on the schematic and in the manual. Sometime I feel like a nut, sometime I don't.

#22 11 months ago

Gotcha, my comment was geared towards figuring out why five balls weren't immediately lifted. Asked and answered.

So, the circuit for the timer step up is relatively simple (for the first few steps).

It requires:
Lifter cam 2A (you've already checked, but listing here for completeness)
The timer unit being on a compatible rivet (0 would be compatible)
And control unit 14B moving.

Since you've checked the first two, time to check 14B. Verify switch stack in your manual. Remember to count switch stacks from left (motor side) to right, just as they are in the manual. When in doubt, double-check the picture in the manual.

#23 11 months ago

I am labeling things as I learn their physical location. I've learned to find things on the schematic and in the manual. Sometime I feel like a nut, sometime I don't.
*************************************************************************
You have to have a 'Good sense of humor' when you work on these Bingos.
A large bottle of aspirin also helps!
We are lucky to have nick here helping us.......all the others must be on Vacation still.

#24 11 months ago
Quoted from KYBingo:

I need to be told about...and thelocation of the anti-cheat relay.

Oh, also, the anti-cheat relay is in a bank of four or five relays mounted vertically on the right hand side of the head when looking in the back door.

#25 11 months ago

Tomorrow morning I'm going to check 14B on the control unit again. I looked at it today after noticing it was in the circuit. As I remember, it was closed while the schematic said it should be open. The cam in the control unit was just shot of the lobe that would have opened switch 14B.

I will also try to identify the anti-cheat relay.

#26 11 months ago

Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends...

I took a day off (wedding anniversary) and took a deep breath before ramping up the enthusiasm.

I did check the 14B on the control unit. Cleaned and it appears open. This raised the question: When is the machine like the schematic?

I also check the "anti-cheat" to make sure it was engaged...guess what? ..it wasn't. So I gave it a push and it engaged. I returned to the shooters stance and turned the machine off and on again (I.T. folks suggest that first LOL) . Reached in a simulated a coin drop and the machine went wild!! Cycling, cycling, cycling. Walked around to watch it happen through the open back door. WOW everything setting and resetting. Solenoids clicking and switches switching. I watch in amazement for a sort time before walking around the front to see the shuttle shuttling - open and close and open and closed. Watched the game counter count one and none, one and none. It really was better than anything at the State Fair.

After I calmed down, I thought, "Why is this happening?"

With the playfield up I could see the back of the coin mechanism. The wire that the coin (or my big fingers) trips was caught down. Once released, the machine landed and came to a rest in the start play position. One ball up.

After simulating the ball lifted, shot, and into a numbered location in the playfield, I am back to the "when and why won't the machine lift a second ball"?

#27 11 months ago

That would come down to trough switch issue. If I had to guess I'd say #1.

#28 11 months ago

Today the trough comes out.

#29 11 months ago

Trough switch #1 is not attached to the trough, but mounted underneath the lifter assembly. Won't hurt to check the other switches, but something to make note of!

#30 11 months ago
Quoted from KYBingo:

Today the trough comes out.

That will be Fun..........
There are only a few circuits for ball lifting; I would try to isolate the problem first before doing that.
****** Edit...... I would wire in that manual Ball Lift switch first, if I was T/S this, but that's me.
Just my thoughts.
ScreenHunter_171 Aug. 20 10.33 (resized).jpg

#31 11 months ago

I have had issues with switch 2 on the ball lift that caused the problem you are describing. Have you tried jumping 43-2 to 27-2 on the lifter? Just bypass the switch with clips and see if it works. It may not be making properly even though visually it appears to be.

#32 11 months ago

OKORANGE -
Thanks for the suggestion. I will try to by-pass and see if that works.

JKnPA - I have been studying the schematic. The added manual ball lift button wired to the eighth ball switch in the trough has me wondering if I should take it out and focus on fixing/restoring the original manual lift button under the shooter. When the eighth ball rolls into the trough, the ball lifter lifts one ball. If I push the added button, another ball is lifted.

The basic problem still persists only slightly different. I did look at all the switches under the trough. I checked the #1 switch under the ball lifter to insure that it was opening and closing and that the plunger wasn't getting stuck.

After simulating the lifted ball into play on the play field another ball ISN'T lifted and the shuttle does not close. Because I am a tinker, I discovered that if I release the "anti-cheat" relay, the machine tilts and the shuttle closes!!!

taking a deep breath and scratching my head. I am always thankful for suggestions...

#33 11 months ago

JKnPA - I have been studying the schematic. The added manual ball lift button wired to the eighth ball switch in the trough has me wondering if I should take it out and focus on fixing/restoring the original manual lift button under the shooter. When the eighth ball rolls into the trough, the ball lifter lifts one ball. If I push the added button, another ball is lifted.
..........................................................................................................................................
Sometimes We buy Bingos that are ALTERED.......... always a problem.
I have a 'BeachTime now, that has extra wires on my C.U. 16 switch...... who knows why it was added!
I would try to keep the Bingo wired according to the manual. Just my Opinion.
**** Note : Your Timer Unit should step to pos.2 when you shoot your first ball.
Maybe your Timer isn't stepping Up. I would look at that particular circuit.

#34 11 months ago
Quoted from KYBingo:

After simulating the lifted ball into play on the play field another ball ISN'T lifted and the shuttle does not close. Because I am a tinker, I discovered that if I release the "anti-cheat" relay, the machine tilts and the shuttle closes!!!

The anti-cheat is what I like to call a soft tilt. It doesn't throw the tilt relay, but it can be the canary in the coal mine about problems with your 50V. It sounds like that is all working as expected.

Regarding the manual ball lift button... in most games there are two switches - one NC and one NO behind this button. I am not certain on Laguna, but can you verify if you have two switches physically present behind there?

I would suggest removing the modification once you verify that they did not physically move part of the game to the bottom... or else intentionally misadjust it closed and see if the behavior changes. Pardon if you've already tried that - busy day and just trying to help!

#35 11 months ago
Quoted from KYBingo:

I did check the 14B on the control unit. Cleaned and it appears open. This raised the question: When is the machine like the schematic?

you're screwed. This switch needs to be closed when the replay cams underneath it are locked. If this switch is open, the timer unit won't step up ... which means the shutter won't close and you're endlessly shooting a ball that drops thru the playfield.

for the CU switches on the schem, "normally" is when the cams/wipers are locked. 'course, there's a couple cams that are always turning on the CU and mixer shafts, so those switches are constantly toggling. Sometimes it's easier to just look at the assembly and verify the switch changes state when the cams turn, the relay powers, or whatever moves the switches moves them. If you suspect a switch that looks closed isn't, move it more, jumper it or get out the voltmeter.

the timer unit is almost always one of the steppers on the bottom of the back door. Usually it's the middle unit (just right of the reflex unit) ... which it is on laguna. JKnPA has the right idea in post #6, but he didn't notice the pic is the score units in the middle of the door instead of the stuff along the bottom.

unfortunately, the laguna pics on bingo.cdyn.com are poor ... too low a resolution and don't have images of the entire back door or inside head to made drawing arrows easier.

anyway, get the timer unit stepping correctly first:
1] fix 14B so it's closed
2] if raising a ball or manually closing ball lift 2A switch does not step the timer unit for the first 3 steps, verify the timer unit is resetting properly. Check the wipers look like as shown in the manual diagram at reset.
3] grab a voltmeter and put probes on the 2A switch blades. If you don't see 50VAC, you've got a problem.

-------------------------------- ignore the below unless you want to be confused about ball lifting ---------------------------------------

the manual lift button and trough 8 aren't related to each other, and your sequence in post #12 is all correct behavior.

on laguna, the manual lift button has two switches:

1] a NO bypass for the ball lifter pin switch at the bottom of the lifter. If the pin switch is not working, the manual button will replace it's function
2] a NC switch that can unpower the lifter start relay when the manual lift button is pressed. This deals with a flaky ball gate switch - the switch at the top of the runway that opens when the ball enters the top arch.

when the pin switch and ball gate switch are working right, the manual lift button won't do anything. The only thing you can use it for is shooting a ball partway up the runway - enough to get it off the runway switch rollover wire - and push the manual lift button to raise another ball (if the other circuitry allows it).

ball trough switch #8 serves one function only - when the game is reset and therefore the timer unit is reset, balls cannot raise until all 8 balls are in the trough. The goal is really to prevent the shutter from closing until all 8 balls started in the trough. On a couple of the early games, you can reset the machine, use the manual lift button to get 3 balls in the runway, then reset the game and cycle multiple times for scores/features. When you shoot all the balls in the runway, the game thinks you only shot 1 ... so you get extra balls for just the cost of the original coin/credit to load up the runway.

the key thing is balls must raise to step up the timer unit, and if the timer unit does not properly reset or does not step to the first step when the first ball is lifted, you're basically screwed. The shutter only closes when the timer unit steps to the second step.

the trough switches on the schematic are drawn in the state when no ball is on the rollover.

wrt the added button on the bottom:
- if they wired that button in parallel to trough switch #8, then they were working around a switch issue on the timer unit or EB trip #2 or a plug connection problem.
- if the added button has one wire going to wire 38-3 on trough 8, and the other wire goes elsewhere, it sounds like someone added an extra button to the bottom of the game that turned on the ball lift motor....basically let them get extra balls without the pain of playing for them. Why they connected to trough 8 instead of going all the way to the lift motor who knows ...it's the same wire in both spots.

also to correct post #29, trough switch #1 is on the ball trough. The switch under the lifter that a ball operates via pushing down the pin is called the "ball lifter sw" on the schematic. The trough switch numbering doesn't really make sense ... see:
https://bingo.cdyn.com/techno/howtheywork/ball_lift/

#36 11 months ago

the timer unit is almost always one of the steppers on the bottom of the back door. Usually it's the middle unit (just right of the reflex unit) ... which it is on laguna. JKnPA has the right idea in post #6, but he didn't notice the pic is the score units in the middle of the door instead of the stuff along the bottom.
................................................................................................................................................
You are correct Sir.
I thought that was the bottom of the door area.
I was hoping there were labels still on the door so he could locate the Timer.
The Timer is usually a major source of Problems.
***** We always appreciate your help *****
Best wishes,
John

#37 11 months ago
Quoted from baldtwit:

also to correct post #29, trough switch #1 is on the ball trough. The switch under the lifter that a ball operates via pushing down the pin is called the "ball lifter sw" on the schematic. The trough switch numbering doesn't really make sense ... see:

Ah, the problems of going off of (shaky) memory. Thanks baldtwit !

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