Lady Luck pop bumper score problem

(Topic ID: 213040)

Lady Luck pop bumper score problem


By nightfire

6 months ago



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There have been 7 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

0Lady-Luck-Work-22 (resized).jpg
Lady Luck Target relay (resized).jpg
Lady Luck Eject relay (resized).jpg
0Lady-Luck-Wms-pinside-snippet-Work-01 (resized).jpg
Lady Luck 50 pts (resized).jpg
Lady Luck No 1 relay (resized).jpg
Lady Luck 1 pt (resized).jpg

#1 6 months ago

On my Lady Luck pin, the top center bumper is supposed to add one card point to your card hand each time it is hit. But instead, it adds the lit card amount shown on the playfield.... Any ideas? It used to work just fine.
I looked at my schematic, but I am still in novice mode, so I can't seem to see where to go with it....
Thanks, Walt

#2 6 months ago

Hi Walt -
Recel, Gottlieb, Williams and Bally all made machines named Lady Luck. Which is yours?

#3 6 months ago

Hi Howard,
Sorry, it's Williams.. (Every time I try to load the site's archive game selection related to my post, it doesn't take it...?)
Walt

#4 6 months ago
Quoted from nightfire:

On my Lady Luck pin, the top center bumper is supposed to add one card point to your card hand each time it is hit. But instead, it adds the lit card amount shown on the playfield.

Lady Luck 1 pt (resized).jpg

The bottom half of the schematic above shows that the top center pop bumper (No 2) and the center yellow target should both fire the Target relay which should add 1 point. Do both the pop bumper and target misbehave the same way?

It also shows that the Target relay should release as soon as either player's 1pt reel advances. Can you verify that too?

Finally, can I assume you get the same bad behavior from the pop bumper and target on both players?

If so it's likely that the Target relay is working fine and that your problem is in the top half of the schematic in the red box. The top half of the schematic shows that the Target relay only sends 1 point to the score reels. The No 1 and No 2 relays could allow multiple pulses from the score motor (Impulse C) to get to the score reels if either of those switches is closed. Find those two switches that connect the red-brown wire to the blue-red wire and put a piece of folded paper in them to keep them from closing and see if you still have the problem. Also look for bent solder lugs, solder blobs, etc. around those two switches while you're at it and make sure that the No 1 and No 2 relays aren't firing when you only expect 1 pt.

/Mark

#5 6 months ago

Mark,
Thanks for the note. I will check it out and reply. But before I do, I just want to be clear.... the top center bumper(#2) is for 1 CARD POINT advance ONLY. The center lower bumper(#3) is a 10 point SCORE or 100 point SCORE when lit. They are not related. The top center bumper for card points is the bumper in question.

BUT... your second sentence may make sense for this. I believe when when the pop bumper is activated, it does add the one card point. However, it keeps going and also adds the lit card shown on the playfield, which should not happen...

I'll update.
Thanks again,
Walt

2 weeks later
#6 5 months ago

Mark,
Ok, I got the time to get back on this.. I proceeded with your diagnosis on post #4. Going through all of that, the problem is one that you address where you say "Make sure no.1 and no. 2 relays do not fire when you expect 1 point" Well, that is what is happening. So I suppose whatever is causing those 2 relays to fire is my culprit....?
I did find and paper-jamb the two switches you mention on those relays, meaning the r/bn to blu/r switches, but no difference on that test. What may this tell us?
Walt

#7 5 months ago
Quoted from nightfire:

Going through all of that, the problem is one that you address where you say "Make sure no.1 and no. 2 relays do not fire when you expect 1 point" Well, that is what is happening. So I suppose whatever is causing those 2 relays to fire is my culprit....?
I did find and paper-jamb the two switches you mention on those relays, meaning the r/bn to blu/r switches, but no difference on that test. What may this tell us?

I'll need to dig a little to understand what makes the No. 1 and No. 2 relays fire. But in the mean time I don't understand your results in blocking the two switches in the schematic in reply #4. If you blocked both switches at the same time I wouldn't expect to see extra points awarded. With the power off measure the resistance, not the continuity, between the red-brown wire and the blu-red wire in the schematic on either side of those two switches. When either one of those switches is closed you should see no more than an ohm or so of resistance. When both switches are open you should read something higher, probably at least 5 ohms, maybe even infinite resistance.

#8 5 months ago
Quoted from nightfire:

the problem is one that you address where you say "Make sure no.1 and no. 2 relays do not fire when you expect 1 point" Well, that is what is happening. So I suppose whatever is causing those 2 relays to fire is my culprit....?

Here's a theory. You said that the top center pop bumper gets extra points. And we're working under the assumption that the pop bumper should only award one point and that the No. 1 and No. 2 relays should not fire. Here's the schematic for those two relays:

Lady Luck No 1 relay (resized).jpg

The quick schematic summary is that the No. 2 relay is only fired by the No. 1 relay, and once fired both No. 1 and No. 2 relays hold until the extra points are added.

The four switches in the red box should be the only ways that the No. 1 relay can fire. Could it be that one or more of those switches is gapped too closely, and that the vibration from the pop bumper is causing it/them to close? You could test that theory by 1) pounding your fist on the playfield to see if you can get the No. 1 relay to fire or, 2) block those 4 switches with paper to see if your pop bumper awards just 1 point.

#9 5 months ago

Ok, here is what is going on with this. First off, I want to say that this pin worked fine up until this problem occurred, so I would guess all this stuff is related. I went to do further testing as you stated, and I thought I would give the whole game an overview by playing by hand to work all the switches, etc.
So, in addition to the problems mentioned in my previous posts, I have one more. It is interesting that you showed the positions on the schematic to block certain switches, because I noticed also that those two kick out eject switches that you show are also the ones I noticed not working correctly. When you land in the eject hole, it awards the card points indicated as lit on the playfield, plus awards 50 scoring points. I noticed while doing the last test run, that those kick out eject switches will award the card points but not the 50 score points... I assume this is all related..?
As per your switch blocking test on this, it didn't change anything, the #2 bumper still awards the card points as lit on the playfield, which it is not supposed to do.
Thanks again,
Walt

#10 5 months ago

Hi Walt +
it is a mystery --- MarkG asked a question at the end of his post-8: POUNDING Your fist ... question: Did You do this test ?

In Your post-9 You write about "50 points - but the Eject-Switches do not award 50 points". I do not understand this remark. Question - When You let the ball roll into one of the Eject-Holes and let the pin act / react: Do You never ? or sometimes ? or always ? get 50 points ?
(((In the schematics at E-20/E-21I see a switch "Eject RE." - closed when the Eject-Relay is pulling --- schematics at C-9: The running Score-Motor actuates five times the Motor-IMP-B You must get 50 points WHEN the Eject-Relay is pulling AND the motor runs)))
Greetings Rolf

#11 5 months ago

Rolf,
Thanks for the note...Maybe I am saying this wrong, so let me clarify. What I am talking about the the 'Joker' kick out holes. Is that considered the eject holes mentioned? I thought that was. Maybe I am not stating the correct part. But, the Joker kick out holes should advance the score points as well as reward 50 score points, but do not reward the 50 points. If I am not understanding the correct eject holes, please clarify that for me....I am still a novice, remember!
Also. I did bang on the playfield with my fist. I did get a 1pt SCORE switch wanting to make contact, but that is it. Not any card points.
Thanks a lot,
Walt

#12 5 months ago

Hi Walt +
I did "manoeuvre" me into an problematic situation. Many pinsiders have the knowledge - some are willing to (regularly, often) help. MarkG is one of these helpers. When I see "one of the 'some' is taking care": I usually keep out of the discussion (((is it needed "me writing": Yes, yes do this test ?))) - maybe I should have waited for MarkG to ask "Walt, did You do the test with the fist ?" (((I also would have asked for doing this test))).

Besides the "fist test" there was my problem of understanding "Eject-Holes" and so I was asking about these Ejectholes - and "by the way did You do the fist-test" ?

I would like to leave the party and be an "interested reader" - I think we have clarified "You have one more problem "Eject-Holes do not score 50 points".
Look here: http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1404 - ipdb mentions: TWO Kick-out holes - click on text "Kick-out hole" and You land here: http://www.ipdb.org/glossary.php#Kick-out_Hole --- also called Eject Hole.
Here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1404&picno=16912 we see the Eject-Holes and read "Card Value and 50 Points" - You do have one more problem "Eject-Holes do not score 50 points". Greetings Rolf

#13 5 months ago
Quoted from nightfire:

the Joker kick out holes should advance the score points as well as reward 50 score points, but do not reward the 50 points

Walt,
Here is the simplified circuit for how your 50 points should get to the 10 Point relay:
Lady Luck 50 pts (resized).jpg
When the ball lands in one of the eject holes, the score motor should start turning and (eventually) the Eject relay should fire. As the score motor turns, the second switch from the bottom (B) on the Impulse cam closes 5 times connecting the yellow wire to the grey-white wire. Those five pulses go through a switch on the Eject relay connecting the grey-white wire to the white-red wire which should fire the 10 Point relay 5 times. The Eject solenoid should kick the ball out after the 50 points are awarded and then the Eject relay should release.

I'm still grappling with the schematic but it it looks like the Eject relay doesn't fire until after the No 1 and No 2 relays fire and award whatever card points are due so I'm not entirely clear on when the Eject relay should fire.

Rolf,
Thanks for the kind words. I too often step back if I think the topic is in good hands. But I'd welcome another set of eyes on this one. We still need to figure out why No 1 and No 2 relays fire when the pop bumper #2 is hit.

#14 5 months ago

Hi Walt, Mark +
I am not fully convinced - see the JPG I have taken from post-8. First choice: Walt says; No - these switches are fine. Maybe, so lets Check second choice: The manual http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1404/Williams_1968_Lady_Luck_Instruction_Manual.pdf on page-7 (ori-5) informs us: The No. 1 Relay and the No. 2 Relay are mounted ON THE PLAYFIELD. maybe (maybe) the "Self-Hold-Switch" on an relay is TIGHT - too tight - a bit of shaking and the Self-Hold-Switch faulty closes --- see manual at page-27 (ori-25): Switches "No. 2A" on both - "No. 1B" on No-1-Relay. Greetings Rolf

0Lady-Luck-Wms-pinside-snippet-Work-01 (resized).jpg

#15 5 months ago

Thanks guys for all the help here! I have cured one problem, but still have the others. You guys were so adamant about the #1 relay doing something wrong, I spent time on that. Even though I would bang my fist on the playfield, it would not engage. However, I noticed that when I touched the relay plate, it would engage. I know the normal relay feel from fooling with these pins the last couple of years, and it seemed to me that relay was way too sensitive. It seemed like residual magnetism was present. I decided to bend the backing arm on the relay a bit, and put a different return spring on it. Well, that did the job on that! No more #2 pop bumper scoring the lit card quantity on the playfield, just the 1 card point it is supposed to do. Is it OK that I assume I am good on how I cured that, or should I go back and approach it differently...?

Next, the two problems I still have.. One, both eject holes still don't work correctly. They will award the lit card score, but not the 50 points, and not the ball eject. Mark, you are right about the sequence. It advances the lit card points, then the 50 score points, then ejects the ball. But, like I said, it won't proceed to the 50 score points, or eject the ball.

Next thing.., I thought the #2 bumper single card advance was the problem for the other single card advance switches, but evidently not. There are 5 places to be awarded a card advance. The said #2 bumper, the center playfield target, and the 3 rollover switches. The pop bumper and the center target will award a card point, but none of the three rollover buttons will.... Once again, a few weeks ago, this all worked..? Frustrating!

Thanks again!!
Walt

#16 5 months ago
Quoted from nightfire:

Is it OK that I assume I am good on how I cured that, or should I go back and approach it differently...?

Go with it.

Quoted from nightfire:

both eject holes still don't work correctly. They will award the lit card score, but not the 50 points, and not the ball eject. Mark, you are right about the sequence. It advances the lit card points, then the 50 score points, then ejects the ball. But, like I said, it won't proceed to the 50 score points, or eject the ball.

Somehow I missed the fact that the ball isn't kicking out. Does your Eject relay fire? If not, I'd suspect one of the switches in red:
Lady Luck Eject relay (resized).jpg
Since the sequence gets started when the ball lands in a kickout hole I think the Eject switches are probably OK. The score motor switch in red is on a cam by itself (as shown) and the No.1 and No. 2 relay switches should close once card points are awarded and the No. 1 and No. 2 relays relax.

Quoted from nightfire:

I thought the #2 bumper single card advance was the problem for the other single card advance switches, but evidently not. There are 5 places to be awarded a card advance. The said #2 bumper, the center playfield target, and the 3 rollover switches. The pop bumper and the center target will award a card point, but none of the three rollover buttons will.... Once again, a few weeks ago, this all worked..? Frustrating!

Hmm, the schematic shows that the pop bumper and target do different things than the three rollover switches:
Lady Luck Target relay (resized).jpg
The bumper and target fire the Target relay while the three rollovers step the Advance unit (via the Advance relay). Are you sure they should all behave the same?

#17 5 months ago

Mark, Oops, my mistake. You are right, the rollovers are different than the bumper and target. I guess I was so overwhelmed by all the things going on that I forgot what I was looking at!
Anyway, I will check out the kickout hole situation and report what I find.
Thanks again!!
Walt

#18 5 months ago

Ok Mark... here is what is happening.. I used your red schematic section to test my kick out hole operation. I checked each switch, relay, connection, etc to test the circuit. Everything worked individually, but from the playfield game, only the card points. I ended up using a jumper wire from the yellow transformer wire to each point in that circuit. At every point from the score motor Y/B contact to the eject relay, it would score the 50 points and eject the ball. At the points from the score motor Blu/Y contact to the eject switch, it would award the card points.
So, I figured the problem must be at the score motor contacts. I adjusted the contacts, cleaned them, pinched the contacts to be sure current went through the blades. I even tested the system actually touching the contact pin on the blade switches on both sides. So from there, I figured it would all work...wrong. It made no improvements, and I don't see how it could be anywhere else from the tests I had run. What did I overlook...?
Walt

#19 5 months ago

I agree with your theory that the score motor switch could be the problem. I'd shut off the power and ohm out the circuit. Put your meter on the lowest resistance setting (not the continuity setting) and clip one lead to the Eject relay solder lug with the grey-green wire and leave it there. Then with the other lead measure the resistance to the grey-orange wire on the other side of the No. 2 relay switch, and then to the yellow-black wire on the score motor switch. In both cases you should see about the same value which is probably less than an ohm. Then move the lead from the yellow-black wire to the blue-yellow wire on the other side of the score motor switch and slowly turn the score motor cams by hand until the score motor cam follower falls into the gap on the single dwell cam and the switch closes. When it does your resistance measurement should fall to about the same (less than one ohm) value you got without the score motor switch.

Another experiment you can try with the power on is to tilt the game, then drop a ball into either eject hole. The tilt will keep the game from scoring the card points (and probably the 50 points too) but will kick the ball out of the hole. That would exercise the Eject relay circuit except for the score motor switch. (See the first schematic from reply #16 for reference.)

Finally, I'd like to understand whether the Eject relay fires at all during game play when a ball drops into the eject hole. It sounds like either it doesn't fire at all, or it does fire but only briefly. If the 2nd case is true we should probably be looking into the hold circuit rather than the trigger circuit.

#20 5 months ago

Mark,
OK.. As per your test, all the ohms readings as noted were the same. Like you said, very low. Even the score motor reads fine.
Great test idea about the tilt. When I do that, the ball does kick out of the eject hole with no points scored on either score reel.
I've had this game for a while now and you know how it is, you get used to all the sounds. When the ball does drop into the eject hole on the tilt test, it does hold for the normal period. I can tell from the sound... make sense? In other words, concerning you 3rd paragraph, it sounds like it holds for the normal period, even when I did my jumper testing it seemed normal to me in that respect. At one point, I held it longer manually, but no difference. I'm not sure what to make of all this when all the individual tests show normal. Weak coil on one of them?
I actually replaced the 2nd coin trip relay coil on this about a year ago. It would only work with jumper wires so I assumed it had a resistance problem. It cured the problem. But it seems to be a bit different symptom on this...?
Walt

#21 5 months ago

One more thing I did.. I used a test light all along the schematic you pointed out in post #16 regarding working the eject relay. The test light would not light on the B/Y wire at the blade switch. It would light on the Blu/Y side though. No brainer, right?....bad switch contacts. Since it is a single switch pack, I figured it was easy enough to remove it and re-solder the two wires at the connections, as well as solder the points to the blades on the back sides to ensure a connection. I also noticed the spring tension was weak as the arm contacted the motor wheel, which is how the points contact one another. Lastly, I adjusted the point gap again just to be sure. I was excited to have it up and going again, so I plugged it in and.....0. It did not work. I tested again with the test light. No current through the switch at the B/Y wire..
So, can a blade switch be that bad conducting electric current that it needs to be replaced? Even after all that solder on the all the contact points?
I'm probably still overlooking something, maybe?
I did notice with the test light on the Blu/Y wire at the blade switch, that the light would flash on just as the wheel started moving. Then again quickly as the wheel just passed the 'divot' point for the switch. So in other words, as the points closed, the light stayed off until it just passed the divot point where the points opened again. Shouldn't the light change as the points make contact? Seems like strange timing on that the light comes on twice when the points aren't making contact, but when they do, the light is off...
Aargh!!

Walt

#22 5 months ago

I don't follow all of your test light experiments (not sure where the test leads are). But it does give me another idea to try.

To make sure I'm still on the same page the current problem is that when the ball lands in an eject hole, you get card points, but not 50 points and the ball doesn't kick out. And through some jumper wire testing you can get it to award 50 points and kick out. Is that right?

I believe that the complete sequence should be:
- ball lands in eject hole
- No 1 relay fires, score motor starts turning, Advance unit advances through 5 steps, card points awarded
- No 2 relay fires, No 1 relay relaxes, score motor keeps turning, Advance unit advances through another 5 steps, more card points awarded
- Delay relay fires to keep the score motor running after No 2 relay relaxes
- No 2 relay relaxes, score motor still turning, Eject relay fires, 50 points awarded, ball kicked out
- Eject and Delay relays relax once the eject hole switch opens (when the ball is kicked out)

It sounds like you can get the first part or the last part of this sequence to work, but not all the parts at the same time.

With a game started and the playfield up, can you jumper across one of the eject holes an watch how far through the sequence you get? In particular I'd like to know if the Delay relay fires when the No 2 relay fires. The Delay relay seems to be the bridge between the two parts of the sequence that you've seen work separately. If it's not firing, or if it's switch to keep the score motor running isn't working that could explain why you can't complete the sequence.

Note that you'll need to keep that eject hole switch closed until you hear the Eject solenoid fire just like it would be if there were a ball in the Eject hole.

If the sequence stops before the eject solenoid fires, what happens if you give the score motor a nudge (just enough to get it turning)? Does the Eject relay/50 points/Eject solenoid sequence complete?

#23 5 months ago

Hi Walt, MarkG, +
many Williams have in the first cam (next to the real motor) on top of the switchstack: An threebladed Make-and-Brake-Switch --- the Make-Part is the "Self-Hold-Switch for the Score-Motor. Whenever we want the motor to make a turn of 180 degrees: We gently press down the topmost blade and let go (instead of giving a nudge). Greetings Rolf

0Lady-Luck-Work-22 (resized).jpg

#24 4 months ago

WOW, I got this thing fixed. I'm not sure what it was, but I just did everything related to what you guys said and it finally worked.
Mark, I'm really glad you put in your post #22 about needing to keep the eject hole closed to simulate the ball holding the switch. As I read that, I realized I had stopped doing that by leaving the playfield propped up and using my finger. Sometimes I forget about the basics!
Anyway, that is why I am not sure what fixed it, because I was doing that after the last few repairs/tests until you had mentioned it.
Thanks again for all the help, it works great. I have my game back again!
Walt

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