(Topic ID: 202700)

Lady Luck, 1968 Williams. 500 ohm resistor on Change Relay question

By Alan_L

4 years ago


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  • 11 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Alan_L
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 4 years ago

There is a ceramic 500 ohm resistor on the lugs of the Change Relay coil. Sometimes that relay locks on. Is that resistor there to keep the coil from burning?

Also, the 1 card point score reel for the first player buzzes like crazy when rotating from one number to the next. The coil stop is worn to a concave condition but it is integral with the u-shaped bracket that holds the switch stack. Does anyone still sell the whole bracket with a new coil stop? Or should I just try to file it level? File the plunger level and bevel the edges too?

#2 4 years ago

Hi Alan_L
the "1 card point score reel for the first player buzzes" --- question: ONLY when You are playing ? --- OR ALSO at starting a new game / resetting ?

The resistor --- I assume that there are several topics about resistors. One of the theories is "the relay acts more lively" --- I doubt. Another theory is "keeps the contact-points / snow-shoe riding on rivets stuff from burning" - maybe - but why are the resistors seldom mounted ? Coil (over) heating and finally burning ? ipdb only has the schematics - hard to read - WHAT coil is mounted in Your pin on the LOCK-RELAY ? hard to read in the schematics - is it an Z-28-1150 ? The same as the coil on the Change-Relay ? The LOCK-RELAY may stay pulling for hours - then why is there NO resistor on the LOCK-RELAY ? So I do not believe in the theory "keeping the relay from over heating".
Williams decided to call it "CHANGE-Relay" - we could say "Alternating relay" - it alternates from "non-pulling for a while" to "pulling for a while" - non-pulling - pulling etc. as the No-Match Unit is stepped. The No-Match-Unit is stepped (among others) by making points in the Ones-points. Have a friend manipulating on the playfield - he makes points (single points) - and You watch the No-Match-Unit --- DOES the Unit ALWAYS do a step ?
See in my JPG - on the bottom to the right: Bumpers will be lit / unlit - and the Light on the bottom-rollovers changes / alternates. Greetings Rolf

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#3 4 years ago
Quoted from Alan_L:

There is a ceramic 500 ohm resistor on the lugs of the Change Relay coil. Sometimes that relay locks on. Is that resistor there to keep the coil from burning?

Resistors do these 2 things: (1) Draw current, and (2) Dissipate that current. A 500 ohm resistor across 24 volts will draw about 0.05 amps which is negligible so (1) isn't what the resistor is for. Thinking about (2) though, the resistor could dissipate current flow.

Looking at rolf_martin_062 's typical excellent research in post #2 above, I see that in every case the resistor is installed in a circuit with a contact disk. So it must be that the resistor is installed to dissipate the voltage spike caused by suddenly switching off the flow of current to the coil in order to prevent arcing and wear at the contact disk.

#4 4 years ago

Hi
Howard - thanks for the flowers. I actually stumbled over an "I started once to do a documentation JPG" in my "Spirit of 76" files. At the time (then) I must have decided to not being pinky (?) / itchy (?) and did not proceed in the documentation. A long time ago I was more on the "acts more lively" rail.

Well, here in the JPG we see on the right a funny thing Bally used for a while - to save costs by "not mounting an Tilt-Relay" --- instead: The Tilt-Switches made an "short" so the Hold-Relay quits pulling (which indicates an Tilt) --- and the resistor (encircled orange) prevented / prevents the fuse from blowing --- only a short time --- as the "Hold-Relay quit pulling" very soon opened its Switch in the wiring.

And on the left - my red question mark is the reason why I was on the "acts more lively" side --- WHAT is the purpose on that Coin-Lockout-Coil-Resistor ??? You may read this: http://bingo.cdyn.com/machines/features.html ---- here is a search in pinside --- if You want to dig-in: The 3,4-5,6 references in the search will get You to some lively discussions: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/search?s=1&what=posts&q=bingo&topic-machine=&pinsider=rolf_martin_062&age_days=&subforum=0&sort_by=date&sort_order=DESC#results --- Greetings Rolf

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#5 4 years ago

Thanks for the replies, guys.

It does sound like that 500 ohm resistor is supposed to act like a diode on a solid state game, keeping voltage from kicking back into the No. Match Unit.
But sometimes the No. Match Unit locks up and I have to power down to release it. Should I cut a leg off the resistor and test it? None of the 1 point switches work which is probably part of the problem. I have put paper strips between all the 1 point switch contacts to try and isolate the problem. Still can't find something that is making constant contact. Will keep checking tomorrow.

The coils on both the Lock and Change Relays are Z28-1150. The 1 point card drum only buzzes when advancing when I am playing, not at start up or resetting. File the coil stop? Is the coil stop itself replaceable?

#6 4 years ago
Quoted from Alan_L:

sometimes the No. Match Unit locks up and I have to power down to release it

The No Match unit is driven by this switch on the 1 Point relay. What's happening there?

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#7 4 years ago

Hi Alan_L +
the "1 card point score reel for the first player buzzes" ONLY when You are playing. I am not familiar with the logic of play, Here is what I see in the ipdb-schematics.
Starting a game makes the "1" close as the Coin-Relay pulls-in. This makes the "2" pull-in and it establish " (3) Self-Hold-Circuitry for a long time" - until all is resetted (4 stuff) - then the "2" drops out. When playing the reset is done everytime a new ball is given (5,6,3,4). The motor is running so "7" pulses - through "8, 9 closed by pulling relay", "10" is the "11" stepped.

Now my problems of understanding the logic: Through running motor, pulsing "7" and pulling relay "either 12 or 13 closed" - then "14": The "11" is also stepped five (?) times. Please write about the No.-1- and No.-2-Relays.
When playing the pulling Target-Relay closes "15" and through "14" the coil "11" fires.
I would look at and clean the switches "12,13,14,15" - do You see sparks ?

(((Funny - I was looking for snippets of schematics to my Gtb Ice Revue and stumbled over))) Here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/game-over-light they also talk about resistors. I am not an electricien so I do not know - interesting is (the whole topic and) post-8, POST-12, post-15 and on.

The No. Match Unit sticking sometimes: HowardR (post-6) shows the schematics and asks about the "Switch on the 1-Point-Relay" - is this switch adjusted tight - sometimes faulty closed when the relay is not pulling ? We also see on the snippet "when the Player-Reset-Relay is pulling and the motor runs:" A stepping is done - therefore it may be that these "Switches involved" are adjusted tight (?).

Alan_L --- in post-5 You write "NONE of the 1-Point-Switches work" --- maybe they do work - make the 1-Point-RELAY pull-in and then this RELAY keeps-on faulty pulling - so the No-Match-Unit is just a symptom of the faulty endlessly pulling 1-Point-Relay (?). Greetings Rolf

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#8 4 years ago

I have been searching all 1 point switches, including the slingshots, for the last two days. I have checked each switch for touching wires that shouldn't, leafs making contact and anything else that looks off. When you close a 1 point switch, it locks the 1 Point Relay which in turn locks the coil on the No. Match Unit. You can manually push the plastic actuator on the 1 point relay to release it and the No. Match Unit will release. But the 1 point relay should just pulse and not lock on, right?

Here's something: When I first started repairing the game, I removed the No. Match Unit disc in order to sand and clean the many contacts underneath. I marked the disc's position on the contact plate with a sharpie so I could reinstall it in the same position, and then when I wiped the contact disc with alcohol to clean off any sanding dust, I wiped off the sharpie mark. Pure genius.

I reinstalled the disc in what I thought was the same position, but I could be 180 degrees off. I think. Maybe. Who knows?

If the disc is not in the proper position on the plate, could it cause the locking 1 point relay problem? If so, how would I fix it?

Thanks for staying with me.

#9 4 years ago

The 1 point relay drops out when the end of stroke switch on the score reel opens. Check the score reel.
Also try it for player 2 — if it is the score reel you shouldn’t see it on the other player.

4 months later
#10 4 years ago

Was your problem ever found? I’m having a very similar issue with my Lady Luck machine that the coil locks on and the match coil is constantly pulled in.

#11 4 years ago

Hi Wayne,

No, I was so pissed off with that thing that I walked away from it about 2 months ago to work on other machines. I've got to call a friend nearby who has more expertise on EM's than I do. I'll let you know.

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