(Topic ID: 181703)

KISS Pinball 79


By Torso718

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 289 posts
  • 29 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Quench
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

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There are 289 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 6.
#251 1 year ago

And this is the reading I got on A1. Makes no sense to me. Is my meter junk?

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#252 1 year ago

Not that this is any kinda science but if you throw your leads on a 9v or 1.5v battery do you see the right voltage and polarity- what if you carefully stick the leads into an outlet having set the meter to AC voltage first. Then measure resistance through a piece of wire and then if you have it, across a very long spool of wire or a resistor if you have any laying around. A 1.5 v battery (AA, AAA, C, D) should be dang close to 1.5 v (use a newer battery), the outlet is probably 117-121 and your short wire should show low to near zero resistance whereas a hundred feet on a spool should get you some resistance... maybe someone has an easy empiric test but these will at least give you a little confidence.

Also- using the probes on test points and legs of chips, it's easy to make poor contact. I read everything at least two times that I am confident I have the leads correct and compare. If they don't match I figure out what I missed.... keep on trucking!

#253 1 year ago

I checked each test twice and on the J4 pin 13 I checked it multiple times. I'll have to try testing the new batteries. Thx for more things to try Rufessor. Here's a vid after I unplugged the J4 pin 13. You were right Quench, It lit up like a Christmas tree.

#254 1 year ago

Earlier in this thread you were using a red multi-meter of the same type. Do you no longer have it?
This yellow meter is giving you inaccurate/unreliable readings. Borrow/buy another meter.

So far all tests have indicated your main lamp driver board is working properly.
The problem is down to that Lamp Strobe #1 signal we've been trying to measure. It appears to be shorted to ground.

With the game board connectors all connected but machine switched OFF, get/set your multi-meter dial to the "20k" range in ohms/resistance mode near the bottom of the meter.
What readings do you get when you:
a) put the red meter lead on pin 19 of U10, and the other meter lead on TP4 of the MPU board (top right area).
b) put the red meter lead on pin 19 of U10, and the other meter lead on TP5 of the MPU board (bottom right area).
The following two are the same as a) and b) but the black meter lead goes on pin 19 of U10 this time.
c) put the black meter lead on pin 19 of U10, and the other meter lead on TP4 of the MPU board.
d) put the black meter lead on pin 19 of U10, and the other meter lead on TP5 of the MPU board.

#255 1 year ago

Results of test:

a) put the red meter lead on pin 19 of U10, and the other meter lead on TP4 of the MPU board (top right area).----------- .03
b) put the red meter lead on pin 19 of U10, and the other meter lead on TP5 of the MPU board (bottom right area).------ .12
The following two are the same as a) and b) but the black meter lead goes on pin 19 of U10 this time.
c) put the black meter lead on pin 19 of U10, and the other meter lead on TP4 of the MPU board.-------------------------- .03
d) put the black meter lead on pin 19 of U10, and the other meter lead on TP5 of the MPU board. ------------------------- .12

#256 1 year ago

Are you using a working meter now?
Were those measurements taken with the multi-meter set on "20k" ohms resistance mode (7 o clock position on your multi meters dial)?
In the 20k ohms resistance mode if you touch the two meter leads together to short them do you get a reading around 0.03?

If yes to all the above, those readings indicate that Lamp Strobe#1 signal is shorted to ground which is bad and also explains the playfield lamp symptoms you're seeing. Question now is where is the short...

Can you post some clear pictures of the MPU board back of U10 (solder side) and back of connector J1 (solder side)?

#257 1 year ago

Yes to all. I will be posting the pics of the MPU.

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#258 1 year ago

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#259 1 year ago

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#260 1 year ago

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#261 1 year ago

Happy thanksgiving to you too!

Your board is in pretty nice shape.
Can you redo the measurements with the board out of the machine? I've copy'n'pasted the below for convenience.

Set your multi-meter dial to the "20k" range in ohms/resistance mode near the bottom of the meter.
What readings do you get when you:
a) put the red meter lead on pin 19 of U10, and the other meter lead on TP4 of the MPU board (top right area).
b) put the red meter lead on pin 19 of U10, and the other meter lead on TP5 of the MPU board (bottom right area).
The following two are the same as a) and b) but the black meter lead goes on pin 19 of U10 this time.
c) put the black meter lead on pin 19 of U10, and the other meter lead on TP4 of the MPU board.
d) put the black meter lead on pin 19 of U10, and the other meter lead on TP5 of the MPU board.

Then do these same measurements but with the U10 chip removed from the board. Let us know what readings you get for both lots of tests.

#262 1 year ago

Here are the results:

Set your multi-meter dial to the "20k" range in ohms/resistance mode near the bottom of the meter.
What readings do you get when you:
a) put the red meter lead on pin 19 of U10, and the other meter lead on TP4 of the MPU board (top right area). -------- .03
b) put the red meter lead on pin 19 of U10, and the other meter lead on TP5 of the MPU board (bottom right area). ---- .96
The following two are the same as a) and b) but the black meter lead goes on pin 19 of U10 this time.
c) put the black meter lead on pin 19 of U10, and the other meter lead on TP4 of the MPU board. ------------------------ .03
d) put the black meter lead on pin 19 of U10, and the other meter lead on TP5 of the MPU board. ----------------------- .94

Then do these same measurements but with the U10 chip removed from the board. Let us know what readings you get for both lots of tests.

With the U10 chip removed I could not get a reading on the socket with either lead.

#263 1 year ago
Quoted from Torso718:

With the U10 chip removed I could not get a reading on the socket with either lead.

Doh, yeah the plastic socket is getting in the way of measuring the internal pin at the empty U10 socket. You'll have to put the meter lead on the solder side (back of the board) of U10 pin 19.

How is your patience on this holding up?

#264 1 year ago

Holding up well. It's kinda fun doing this. A nice mystery. Buying a new board would be too easy
It also gives people some information who own a bally machine.

#265 1 year ago

After flipping the board over and testing pin 19 of U10 I got nothing on TP4 or TP5. I switched leads and tried it and nothing. I checked the pins to the left and right (18 & 20) and got a reading so I know that I am making good contact.

#266 1 year ago

I was worried you were probably getting frustrated by now.

You got no reading from U10 socket pin 19 to TP4 or TP5? Interesting.. With your meter on the 20k ohms resistance scale you should have got a reading around 3.3 between pin 19 and TP5. There is a red 3.3k ohm resistor on that signal connecting it to the 5 volt rail on the board. It is resistor R20 which is on the very right of the U10 socket. The bottom of R20 connects to the 5 volt rail on the board (i.e the plane that TP5 exists). The top of R20 connects to pin 19 of the U10 socket.

With U10 still removed and your meter still on the 20k ohms resistance scale, put one meter lead on the top of R20 and the other meter lead on the bottom of R20. What measurement do you get across resistor R20? It should measure around 3.3

Next, put a meter lead on TP5 of the MPU board and the other meter lead on pin 11 (11th pin from the top) of J1 on the MPU board - this is where that signal leaves the board. What resistance measurement do you get? It should measure around 4.5

From the back side (solder side) of the board, put one meter lead on pin 19 of U10 location and the other meter lead on the top of resistor R20. You should get a reading around zero. Is that what you get?

[EDIT] can you also measure the resistance across R19 which is just below R20. One meter on the left side of the resistor R19, the other meter lead on the right side of the resistor R19. You should get a reading around 1.2

Can you post some clear pictures of the U10 socket (top side of the board) with U10 still removed. A straight on top picture and some 45 degree angled shots along the socket to PCB area hopefully showing a little bit of the pins underneath the socket.

Looking at a previous picture of your MPU board, what is that white spot above R20 - is it a knick in the board - possibly a cut trace from the top of R20??

Kiss_MPU_R20.jpg

#267 1 year ago

Measuring R20 from top to bottom................. 1.09
Measuring TP5 and J1 pin 11 on MPU.............. 2.28
Measuring top of R20 and U10 pin 19............. 0.00
Measuring R19 from top to bottom................. 1.18

The spot on the board was just a mark. I kinda rubbed it out.

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#268 1 year ago

That reading across R20 is too low. It's inconsistent with the no reading you mentioned in post #265 where you measured the same circuit essentially.
The second reading is also too low but is caused by the low resistance across R20.
The third and fourth readings are ok.

With your multi-meter still on 20k resistance ohms mode and the U10 chip still removed, can you measure the resistance between the top leg of R20 and TP4 on the MPU board - i.e. one meter lead on the top of R20 and the other meter lead on TP4 (top right corner) which is the ground plane of the board. I read about 5.7 what are you getting?
Then please change the meter to the "200" resistance ohms scale (6 o clock on the meter dial) and remeasure the same thing. Let us know the readings.

#269 1 year ago

Measure the resistance between the top leg of R20 and TP4 on the MPU board - i.e. one meter lead on the top of R20 and the other meter lead on TP4 (top right corner) which is the ground plane of the board. I read about 5.7 what are you getting?
My reading is .03

Change the meter to the "200" resistance ohms scale (6 o clock on the meter dial) and re-measure the same thing.
My reading is 22.7

#270 1 year ago

22.7 ohms on that signal to ground is way too low and is bad. On the 20k scale you should probably get around 5.7 which translates to 5700 ohms.
This effective short to ground on this signal is causing the playfield lamp behavior you're seeing. Question now is where is this short coming from...

I was helping another pinsider during the week with a switch issue related to U10. I asked him to remove the plastic part of the U10 socket which revealed his problem. Can you very carefully and slowly pry off the plastic part of the U10 socket and let's see what's going on with the pins. You should be able to push the cover back on later after we're done having a peek. Post a clear picture if you can.

See the picture on this post to get an idea what it looks like when the plastic part of the socket is removed:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wrong-switch-locations#post-4091424

#271 1 year ago

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I had to straighten some of the pins on the right side of the board because they bent a little taking the plastic socket off.

#272 1 year ago

All looks ok. Carefully put the plactic cover back on in the same direction as shown in your previous pictures. Pin 21 top right might need to be massaged back into position a little more.

The only things connected off that U10 lamp strobe #1 signal on the MPU board are resistor R20, the eight small orange diodes (CR11 - CR18) to the top right of U10 and a capacitor (C49) around the top right of the MPU board near the J1 pin header.

Make sure all the eight little switches 25 to 32 are OFF which will effectively disconnect circuitry from the diodes. With your multi-meter set on the "200" ohms resistance mode (6 o clock on the dial), measure the resistance between the top leg of R20 and TP4 again.

If you still get around 22.7 ohms, the next thing to isolate is capacitor C49 - this component actually is a connection between our signal and ground so it is a likely suspect. You will have to disconnect one side of the capacitor. If you're handy with a soldering iron, unsolder the bottom leg of the C49 capacitor and pull the leg out of the board so it no longer makes contact (i.e the leg is floating mid air). If you're not handy with a soldering iron, cut the bottom leg of C49 as close to where it solders to the board and lift it up so it's disconnected - this way if the capacitor proves to be ok, you will be able to just solder the cut to rejoin it.

Measure the resistance between the top leg of R20 and TP4 again.

Now measure the resistance across that C49 capacitor. One meter lead on the top leg of C49, the other meter lead on the bottom floating leg of C49. What do you get? You should get no reading.

MPU_C49_location.jpg

#273 1 year ago

After cutting the bottom of C49 measure the resistance between the top leg of R20 and TP4 again.....Result...NOTHING.

Now measure the resistance across that C49 capacitor. One meter lead on the top leg of C49, the other meter lead on the bottom floating leg of C49. What do you get? You should get no reading........Result...23.0

#274 1 year ago

I think we've finally found the culprit

Leave C49 disconnected, reinstall the U10 chip in the same direction it was installed - use your previous MPU board pictures as reference.
Plug the MPU board back in the machine and start it up - fingers crossed...

#275 1 year ago

Yes sir! There are a few lights that are not working on the playfield but I think it may be bad bulbs. It went right into Attract Mode. Will post a small vid after work tomorrow. Pumped! I may not get to sleep now! Lol

#276 1 year ago

Something caught my eye in post #259. There is one solder pad above U10 that doesn't seem to have any solder on it. It could be an illusion but it's driving me nuts!
The pad above it was reworked (visible flux), the pad below it has "original" solder. But for some reason that pad looks bare. Sorry if this muddies the waters, it just stood out to me.

#277 1 year ago
Quoted from klr650:

Something caught my eye in post #259. There is one solder pad above U10 that doesn't seem to have any solder on it. It could be an illusion but it's driving me nuts!

Good eye! It's actually one of the jumper locations for configuring ROM types on the board and is normal in this particular scenario to have nothing in it. But being observant to these things is important during diagnosis because you just never know

#278 1 year ago

Good, thanks Quench!

#279 1 year ago

Here's the vid.

#280 1 year ago

So where can I can another capacitor of the same value to replace this one? I'm sure I can't just "leave this one hangin'" (lol)

#281 1 year ago

I just saw your video now - big difference
How many lamps are out in lamp test mode?

It's a 470pf 50V through hole capacitor (higher voltage is ok). I'm not in the US so don't know your best local options - electronic hobby stores should have them. Hopefully someone else can chime in.

Otherwise online electronics stores. I have no idea what the shipping costs on these will be for you.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/KEMET/C410C471J1G5TA7200/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsh%252b1woXyUXj802zhDUmfe1t2mjYtjavW0%3d

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/kemet/C410C471J1G5TA7200/399-4473-1-ND/818330

There's also ebay which could be cheaper.

#282 1 year ago

g-p-e has them but looks like they are out of stock. Maybe send Ed a PM, he'll probably know another source.
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CER-470uF-50V

#283 1 year ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

@g-p-e has them but looks like they are out of stock.

Thanks for the reminder yeoldpinplayer - the one you linked is a different type but G-P-E does have the correct ones:

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CCA-470pF-100V

Might be worth stocking up on other parts too - fuses, TIP102 driver transistors, 1N4007 diodes, pin connector terminals (0.100" and 0.156") - etc.

#284 1 year ago

Read this entire post today. This is a awesome example of our pinball sites at their best. Passionate owners willing to learn and struggle through hurdles. Equally, passionate and knowledgeable people, showing patience and skill. Thanks to everybody involved in this thread. Playing pinball AND gaining knowledge about the machines is what keeps me going.
Great work all.

#285 1 year ago
Quoted from Ballypalooza:

Read this entire post today. This is a awesome example of our pinball sites at their best. Passionate owners willing to learn and struggle through hurdles. Equally, passionate and knowledgeable people, showing patience and skill. Thanks to everybody involved in this thread. Playing pinball AND gaining knowledge about the machines is what keeps me going.
Great work all.

I couldn't of said it any better! I feel like I've made so many good friends here. Everyone contributed in helping me and finding my problem. I want to thank each and every one of you. My pinball family! And Quench, what can I say? You were there through it all and I know I would of been lost without you. Not wishing anything else to go wrong with my machines but if so, I hope you will be there.

#286 1 year ago

Thumbs up for being diligent in providing every test measurement asked for and posting clear pictures/videos. We wouldn't have found the fault otherwise. And thanks to everyone else who contributed along the way!

#287 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Thumbs up for being diligent in providing every test measurement asked for and posting clear pictures/videos. We wouldn't have found the fault otherwise. And thanks to everyone else who contributed along the way!

Totally agree with quench
torso718 you really put forth the effort being willing to step out of your comfort zone and do things that were suggested, even performing several tests multiple times. When you're obviously trying your best people will go the extra mile to try and help you out. WELL DONE both of you.

1 week later
#288 1 year ago

Here's the finished product. A pic of the new cap installed and a vid of the machine with everything back in. Thanks for the kind words YeOldPinPlayer and Ballypalooza! I hope this thread will help others in their quest to find and fix problems with their own machines. Take care everyone and See You On The "Pinside"!

20171209_151207[1] (resized).jpg

#289 1 year ago

Nice job, well done!

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