KISS Pinball 79


By Torso718

9 months ago


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  • 256 posts
  • 28 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 37 minutes ago by Quench
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

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There are 256 posts in topic. You are on page 5 of 6.
#201 25 days ago

My logic probe only has a Red light for hot and a Green light for ground. No measurements, settings or switches.

I put black gator on TP2 and red on TP1 just above it on the Lamp B. Touched pin 1 of U1 on the same board and got nothing.
Touched pin 19 on U10 of MPU and got a green light on my probe.

#202 25 days ago

Ok, I switched the U10 chip with the U11 and it would not even boot when I turned on the machine. I switched them back, turned the machine on and all of a sudden it went into Attract Mode. So I shut it off and switched the pins again. I turned the machine on and again it went into Attract Mode. U10 chip and U11 are the exact same chip. The numbers on them are the same.
I checked all of the lights and targets and they are working fine. AND the sound came back! Everything is working great! Is it possible that one of the legs on either U10 or U11 was not seated properly? When I removed them I had to straighten out a couple of them on U10 (I think 1 and 21). I just assumed that I bent them taking them out.
So..... with that being said er, I mean typed, where do we go from here?

#203 25 days ago
Quoted from Torso718:

Ok, I switched the U10 chip with the U11 and it would not even boot when I turned on the machine. I switched them back, turned the machine on and all of a sudden it went into Attract Mode. So I shut it off and switched the pins again. I turned the machine on and again it went into Attract Mode. U10 chip and U11 are the exact same chip. The numbers on them are the same.
I checked all of the lights and targets and they are working fine. AND the sound came back! Everything is working great! Is it possible that one of the legs on either U10 or U11 was not seated properly? When I removed them I had to straighten out a couple of them on U10 (I think 1 and 21). I just assumed that I bent them taking them out.
So..... with that being said er, I mean typed, where do we go from here?

Your chip sockets need to be replaced.

#204 25 days ago

I played a game and all went well except there were some lights on the playfield that was flickering. Can't remember which ones they were and they only flickered for a few seconds but I think one of them was the special light in the middle.

#205 25 days ago

nice, so it's pretty much all working ?

questions for @quench
would just re-seating the chips knock whatever scaling off that developed over 40 years?

I need an inexpensive logic probe, anything you'd recommend or avoid ? ebay.com link

imma go & play a #kiss right now go glad you got yours going @torso718

#206 25 days ago
Quoted from chas10e:

I need an inexpensive logic probe, anything you'd recommend or avoid ?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/terrybs-guide-to-logic-probes

#207 23 days ago
Quoted from Torso718:

When I removed them I had to straighten out a couple of them on U10 (I think 1 and 21).

Were these bent pins at right angle under the chip? If yes they caused the dead state when you first swapped the chips.

Quoted from Torso718:

I played a game and all went well except there were some lights on the playfield that was flickering. Can't remember which ones they were and they only flickered for a few seconds but I think one of them was the special light in the middle.

Is this still happening?

Quoted from chas10e:

questions for quench
would just re-seating the chips knock whatever scaling off that developed over 40 years?

Maybe, but I don't expect this will "fix" it for very long. Pictures of the MPU board earlier in this thread show it's in very nice shape (no battery corrosion). The IC sockets might be tired though.
BTW did the logic probe thread by @terryb help? My logic probe is similar to the one in his thread.

#208 23 days ago

yeah searched "ELENCO LP-560" on E-bay and ordered one there. great thread

played a #kiss last night & had a great time

#209 23 days ago

Well, it started acting up again. Boots ok but the lights are jacked up like the above pics. Pins were not bent at 90°.

#210 22 days ago
Quoted from Torso718:

Well, it started acting up again. Boots ok but the lights are jacked up like the above pics. Pins were not bent at 90°.

Go into lamp test mode and press various chips on the MPU board (U10, U11) etc, i.e. with the intention of flexing the MPU board a little.
Also wiggle the J1 connector on the MPU board and J4 connector on the primary lamp driver board.

Do those playfield lamps start lighting/flickering.

#211 20 days ago

I'm not sure which is the Lamp Test because none of the lights flash.
1) When I push the test button once I get the Display test (all 1's, 2's, 3's, etc.)
2) When I push the test button the second time I get the Solenoid test.
3) When I push the test button the third time I get the Sound test.
4) When I push the test button the fourth time I get a "0" in the Ball In Play window.
5) When I push the test button a fifth time I get the Free Game score.
6) When I push the test button a sixth time I get "00" in all four players window and an "02" in the Ball In Play window.
7) When I push the test button a seventh time I get the second Free Game score with an "03" in the Ball In Play window.
When I push the test button a eighth time I get the High Score value with an "04" in the Ball In Play window.
9) When I push the test button a ninth time I get into changing the values and game setup.
Ball In Play number increases each time the test button is pushed until I get to "11". After that the next time I push the test button
it resets everything as if I just tuned the machine on. I'm sure there has to be the Lamp Test there somewhere. I checked each step.

One thing I DID notice was when I get to the Free Game score the value ends in "8" which I thought was odd. Check out the pics.

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#212 20 days ago

the manual say's the first push is the lamp test , 2'nd push 0-9 display ect.

http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1386/Bally_1979_Kiss_Manual.pdf

the sockets mentioned above are suspect as swapping them 2 chips seems to get things going (U10 & U11?), also could be cold solder joints on various header pins as those were being manipulated as well. (plugging & unplugging the board)

#213 20 days ago

When I first push the test button should it be a long press or short/regular press?

Ok, I tried both. The long press took me right into the display test so I turned the machine off and back on then short pressed the test button. In the Lamp test the only thing that was flashing was the Aux Lamp board flashing all four letters at once. The same bulbs were stuck on (40k, 80k, 2x and Special below the bumpers).

#214 19 days ago
Quoted from Torso718:

When I first push the test button should it be a long press or short/regular press?

The moment you first press the self test button it should start the lamp test - you've done it in videos above. Just press it for half a second.

Otherwise just do those tests I asked above in post #210 during attract mode. The point is to see if there's any change in behavior with the playfield lamps or if the game crashes/hangs due to bad IC sockets when you flex the MPU board.

Quoted from Torso718:

One thing I DID notice was when I get to the Free Game score the value ends in "8" which I thought was odd. Check out the pics.

You've got bad data in the battery backed RAM. You need to clear this audit and set the score level award again - you should probably redo the other score level awards too.

#215 19 days ago

In Lamp test mode I tried to move U10 and U11 and nothing happened. Then I tried jiggling J1 on MPU and J4 of the Lamp board and nothing
happened. When I try to reset the score I have to advance the numbers up and it goes back to all zeros except for the last two digits. It stays at "08". Is there a way I can clear the high score without advancing the numbers and when advancing the numbers it advances them by the ten thousands. For example: I have a free game set on 400,000. It reads 400,008. When I advance it with the credit button it goes to 410,008, 420,008, all the way to 990,008. After that it goes clear except for "08" showing in the players window. When I advance it again it goes to 10,008.

#216 19 days ago
Quoted from Torso718:

When I try to reset the score I have to advance the numbers up and it goes back to all zeros except for the last two digits. It stays at "08".

Press the red switch marked S33 at the top right of the MPU board to clear the value to zero "00". Then set the score level award you want.
The S33 switch is used to clear each setting/audit when you're previewing them.

I'll come back to you on the lamps.

#217 16 days ago

Regarding the lamps, connect your logic probe alligator clips as mentioned in post #200
Then probe:
a1) Main lamp board U1 pin 1 (left most bottom pin of U1)
a2) Main lamp board J4 pin 13

b1) Aux lamp board J1 pin 3
b2) Aux lamp board U1 pin 11 (very middle pin along the left side of U1)

c1) MPU board J1 pin 11
c2) MPU board J1 pin 8

d1) MPU board U10 pin 19 (second right pin on the bottom of U10)
d2) MPU board U11 pin 39 (second left pin on the top of U11)

These are all lamp strobe signals from the MPU board to each lamp board. You should see pretty much the same indications on your logic probe at all points.
Make sure your logic probe point is making good contact with the chip pins you're probing.

#218 15 days ago

This is the only probe I have and it doesn't measure anything. It just gives me a RED light for hot and a GREEN light for ground. Can I use this?

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#219 14 days ago

Oh, it's not a logic probe for electronics..

I need to ask, did this playfield lamp problem suddenly appear out of the blue or did it happen after you were doing work on the machine?

I hate the gunshot approach, but there's only so much that can be done without the right diagnostic tools. So please put a new terminal pin on each end of the the wire at the following two locations:
MPU connector J1 pin 11
Primary Lamp Driver board connector J4 pin 13

This wire is the Lamp Strobe #1 signal from the MPU board to the Lamp Driver Board and is my faint suspicion of being open circuit at the connector on either end that might be causing your problem.

#220 13 days ago

Ok, after reading this again I may have done the wrong thing. I found the J1 connector on the MPU and counted down 11 slots and replaced the end of the wire going to the connector. Then I did the same thing with the J4 on the lamp board. Counted down 13 slots and changed the end on it going into the connector. If I did it wrong please send me the pics like you used to showing the location. Meanwhile, I will try to pick up a logic probe that gives measurements. Thank you for being patient with me.

#221 12 days ago

Umm yeah, the MPU board connectors have pin 1 on top counting down, meanwhile the main lamp board connectors have pin 1 on the bottom counting up :-/
Actually, the Aux lamp board also has pin 1 on the bottom of the connectors counting up.

We might as well try the tests with your red multi-meter and see if it produces anything meaningful.

Set your multi-meter to read DC voltage on the 20 volt scale (i.e. point the meter dial to the "20" position which on a dial clock would be between 10 and 11).

Connect the black meter lead to ground - you can use test point 2 "TP2" on the lamp board which is ground and keep it connected there for all the below tests.

Connect the red meter lead at the following points one at a time and record/report the voltage measurements:

a1) Main lamp board U1 pin 1 (left most bottom pin of U1)
a2) Main lamp board J4 pin 13 (13th pin from bottom of J4)

b1) Aux lamp board J1 pin 3 (3rd pin from bottom of J1)
b2) Aux lamp board U1 pin 11 (very middle pin along the left side of U1)

c1) MPU board J1 pin 11 (11th pin from top of J1)
c2) MPU board J1 pin 8 (8th pin from top of J1)

d1) MPU board U10 pin 19 (second right pin on the bottom of U10)
d2) MPU board U11 pin 39 (second left pin on the top of U11)

#222 12 days ago

Torso, if your soldering skills are good, and the sockets on your MPU are originals, then they are 40 yeras old and need replacing. With that being said, U2, U6, U7, U8, U9, U10, and U11 should all be replaced. However, if your soldering skills are not good, I suggest spending the $200 on an Alltek MPU, and all your problems will be solved!

Also, That Aux lamp driver board that you had replaced looks used still, and should probably have the connector pins on the back side of the board at least solder reflowed, but I would suggest replacing the solder on the pins. Meaning suck the old stuff off and add new solder. This should really be done on all connector pins on all boards.

#223 12 days ago

For $160 you can't beat this,

http://nvram.weebly.com/new-pcbs.html

#224 11 days ago

Well, my soldering skills are that of an 8 yr old. At my age my eye sight is going, I don't have a steady hand anymore and bending over the machine to work inside it for long periods of time are all but gone. Vdojaq, I really like those boards and at that price it sounds good. However, first I would like to diagnose the problem with Quench. He has been with me through this whole ordeal and has taught me a few things in the process. Everyone here at Pinside has been so nice and patient with me and I deeply appreciate it. If all else fails I will definitely look into those boards. Gotta get my multi-meter fired up tomorrow and get those measurements.

#225 10 days ago

Here are the results of the tests:

a1) Main lamp board U1 pin 1 (left most bottom pin of U1).......................... = .11
a2) Main lamp board J4 pin 13 (13th pin from bottom of J4)....................... = 6.7

b1) Aux lamp board J1 pin 3 (3rd pin from bottom of J1)............................. = 1.8
b2) Aux lamp board U1 pin 11 (very middle pin along the left side of U1)...... = .11

c1) MPU board J1 pin 11 (11th pin from top of J1)....................................... = 8.6
c2) MPU board J1 pin 8 (8th pin from top of J1).......................................... = 8.6

d1) MPU board U10 pin 19 (second right pin on the bottom of U10)................ = 13.9
d2) MPU board U11 pin 39 (second left pin on the top of U11)....................... = 13.9

One thing I DID notice was when I disconnected the J1 connector on MPU and the J4 connector on Main Lamp to take the measurements half the lights would flicker. When I started to plug them in some of the lights would come on (as if it were trying to enter Attract Mode). But when I pushed the connector on completely they would go out. I will shoot a video to show what's happening.

#226 9 days ago

Hmm, somethings not right. None of those voltages should be above 5.

Oh, you disconnected J1 and J4 during the tests? No, they must remain connected otherwise the signals aren't reaching their destination. You need to insert the multimeter probe into the connector where the wire is going in to measure that signal.

See the below example pics of the main Lamp Board being measured:

Lamp_Board_Measure_Strobe 003a.jpg
Lamp_Board_Measure_Strobe 004a.jpg

#227 8 days ago

Well, I have some bad news. I was checking those segments again leaving each connector plugged into each board.
A1) .11
A2).12
B1) .17
B2) .15
Then things got messed up. I wasn't getting a reading on my multimeter trying to test the connectors on the MPU so I put the black lead through the TP 2 loop and I believe it made contact with one of the diodes below it and sparked a little. Now when I turn the game on I get no response from the green light that flashes seven times when it boots. Did I fry the board or just the diode? My luck never ceases to amaze me

#228 8 days ago

Check all the fuses on the rectifier board - if you're lucky you've only blown fuse F3 and caused no other damage..

Which diode did you accidentally touch? Post a picture pointing to it.

#229 5 days ago

Yes, fuse F3 blew so I changed it

Here are the results of the UPDATED tests:
a1) Main lamp board U1 pin 1 (left most bottom pin of U1).......................... = .11
a2) Main lamp board J4 pin 13 (13th pin from bottom of J4)....................... = .12
b1) Aux lamp board J1 pin 3 (3rd pin from bottom of J1)............................. = .17
b2) Aux lamp board U1 pin 11 (very middle pin along the left side of U1)...... = .15
c1) MPU board J1 pin 11 (11th pin from top of J1)....................................... = 14.0
c2) MPU board J1 pin 8 (8th pin from top of J1).......................................... = 13.9
d1) MPU board U10 pin 19 (second right pin on the bottom of U10)................ = 13.9
d2) MPU board U11 pin 39 (second left pin on the top of U11)....................... = 13.9

Photo below is where the black lead on mm touched one of the diodes.

Screenshot_20171117-173936 (resized).jpg

#230 4 days ago

Umm, you're connecting the black meter lead to the wrong TP2. The picture you've shown is of the MPU board.
Need you to connect the black multi-meter lead to TP2 on the lamp driver board, not MPU board. See the pictures I posted above in post #226.

#231 4 days ago

It can happen to anyone, I read negative DC voltages all the time, and I bet ya never knew a pinball would run backwards if you fired it up with the AC inputs reversed... sure enough

But seriously- keep trying, the only way to learn the difference is to confuse stuff the first time. Seriously though, this next part comes from a good place but is going to sound harsh... start taking a little more time to go to a manual or on line resource and look up what you need to confirm exactly what your working on, your often looking at the wrong spots and eventually your going to break or fry something if you keep this up!. Not a rant, just how its gotta be if you want a working game. Slow down and work after your confident your working on the right spot. If you have questions, post a photo and ask- I do that shit all the time.. trust me you look good for asking, there is no stupid question.

Remember your working on a computer, but have access to all the inputs and output wiring in a way that just does not happen anymore, because everything is gigantic sized its really easy to break these because you can easily touch components together- they are so wide open.

#232 4 days ago

Ok, both pictures above were of the lamp board. I assumed that when i moved to the MPU board and since it had a TP2 also i would move the ground lead there. I didn't think it made sense leaving the black lead on the tp2 of the lamp board and testing the MPU board. Is there anything else that I need to know before I try this a 3rd Time?

I'm off tomorrow so I'll take those readings again. I will leave the black lead on the TP2 of the lamp board and get all of the readings with the red lead on the different boards.

By the way, Thanks Rufessor for the words of encouragement.

#233 4 days ago

Heh, it would have been nice if the test point numbers on all boards referred to the same thing.
.

Quoted from Torso718:

I will leave the black lead on the TP2 of the lamp board and get all of the readings with the red lead on the different boards.

Yes, black meter lead stays on TP2 of the lamp board. This is a ground reference point - for most voltage measurements, black meter lead goes to ground. Red meter lead goes to the points you want to measure.

After you do the measurements, can you do one other thing?
The two wires you are measuring at the MPU J1 connector (pins 8 and 11) each tell their respective lamp boards to activate lamps. With the game off, can you swap these two wires around on that connector and let's see if the fault remains on the playfield lamps or if the missing lamps now occur on the aux lamp board.

This will tell us if the problem is related to the MPU board or the main lamp driver board.

#234 4 days ago

Results of tests with pics:

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#235 4 days ago

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#236 4 days ago

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#237 4 days ago

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#238 4 days ago

This is the result of switching J1 pin 11 and J1 pin 8.
» YouTube video

#239 4 days ago

Thanks.

With the MPU J1 pins 8 and 11 still crossed over, can you make a video with the game in lamp test mode. I'd like to see the full range of lamps that are working now. Please put the backglass on though, because the reflection of the backglass GI lighting is a blinding the playfield.

There are some weird things going on with your voltage measurements - I'll come back to you on them after I see the lamp test mode video.
BTW, can you replace the battery in your multimeter - the "BAT" on your meter display is telling you the battery is flat.

#241 3 days ago

Whoops. Just seen the above post. Oh well, here is the vid.

#242 3 days ago

Thanks for the new video.

All your voltages are showing negative which isn't right (see the minus sign on the meter display). I wonder if it's because of the flat meter battery or if there's ground issues with the game. Replace the 9V battery in your multi-meter first and then we'll revisit this.

That 7.08 volt reading at test A2 doesn't make sense since there's no 7 volts going to the main lamp board so it's a bit of a worry.
Can you tell me the color of the wire at the main lamp board connector J4 pin 13?

Please restore the two J1 MPU board connector wires in their correct positions and also let me know the original color wire that's in pin 11 of MPU connector J1 as well.

#243 3 days ago

I changed the battery in my MM but now I'm not getting a reading. NOTHING. I had a second MM and changed the battery in it also. Both batteries were store bought 20 minutes ago. Tried getting a reading on the second MM and nothing. Just "000" in the window. I even tried checking U10 and U11 chips. I have the black lead to ground on the TP2 of the Lamp B. and the red on the chips. Yes, the game is on. I DID blow the F3 fuse again but how I don't know. I turned the game off and back on. It booted ok except for the usual problem. Do I have to calibrate the MM somehow after changing batteries? Would both fuses blow inside the MM?

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#244 3 days ago

You're not having much luck..

The pics confirm the wire colors are matching at both ends and is the correct wire.

The MPU board has a signal called Lamp Strobe #1 that flags the main lamp driver board to activate lamps. There's a second signal called Lamp Strobe #2 from the MPU board that goes to the Aux lamp driver board.

The voltage measurements you've taken above are measuring the source of these two signals and at different points in their path until they reach their destination. These two signals should measure the same at the respective points along the way.

When you swapped these two signal wires at the J1 connector on the MPU board, it showed that one of these signals isn't working coming off the MPU board and that the problem is not your main lamp driver board.

The Lamp Strobe #1 signal that appears to not be working comes from the U10 (6821) chip on the MPU board. We need to revisit swapping the U10 and U11 chips on the MPU board around as a test. Do it again with the machine OFF. Take care when removing and installing the chips as to not bend the pins, and *don't* rotate the chips. After you've swapped the chips, with the machine still off disconnect the J4 connector from the solenoid driver board - the suspect signal on that original U10 chip will now be controlling solenoids and we don't want it to lock any of the coils on.
Power the game on and let us know what happens with the playfield lamps.

With the multi-meter dial on the same setting as above (DC 20V scale), measure the old 9V batteries to see how far they've discharged (black meter lead on the "-" battery connection, red meter lead on the "+" battery connection. You don't need to re-calibrate the meters after installing new batteries.

#245 2 days ago

Here is the vid after swapping U10 & 11 chips and unplugging J4 on the Solenoid board. The 9v battery read a 7.01.
» YouTube video

#246 2 days ago

Thanks.
Ok so the U10 chip is probably ok. You can just leave them swapped since they're the same type of chip.
Problem is likely to be the U10 socket.

Put your yellow meter in resistance ohms mode by pointing the dial to "2000" at the bottom.
Make sure the machine is OFF.
Connect either meter lead to the MPU board U10 pin 19 (second right pin on the bottom of U10)
Connect the other meter lead to the top of resistor R75 on the main lamp board. If possible, provide a picture showing the meter reading. We're doing a partial check of the lamp strobe #1 signal from the U10 chip to the lamp driver board.
I'm re-using an old picture below so ignore the red meter lead on the chip.

LampDriverBoard1.jpg

#247 2 days ago

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#248 2 days ago

Hmm, that's a good reading.. This is getting weird.
Can you redo the "A2" voltage measurement from above where you got that strange reading of 7.08 volts? Also redo the "A1" reading please.

Then remove the wire from pin 13 of J4 on the lamp board. When you start the game and go to attract mode lots of playfield lights should now flash/flicker. Do they?

#249 2 days ago

Why would my meter do this? It's not connected to anything as seen in the picture. I turned it OFF then back on.

20171120_195418[1] (resized).jpg

#250 2 days ago

This is the reading I got on A2 this time.

20171120_200219[1] (resized).jpg

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