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(Topic ID: 135038)

Kiss LE - Where the hell is the power button to turn it on?


By Barakawins1

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 271 posts
  • 96 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Pinzzz
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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There are 271 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 6.
#251 5 years ago
Quoted from The_Gorilla:

Y'all out there in the Golden State must be relatives of Napoleon?
I am looking at YOU, Nimblepin, I know you're lurking!!!

Who me?

I have no problem with the new switch location T_G...
Tiptoeing around the 6' mark with a +4.5" (1.063) on the ol' "Ape Index", ( ) reaching for stuff is no problemo.
The only thing Napoleon did in California that irked me the last time he visited was, eating all the flippin' ice cream!
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#252 5 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

KISS is my first Spike pin. From a consumer perspective, it's really hard to see ANY innovations that come along with Spike. The only differences between KISS and my other Stern pins are:
- The audio is improved. Since Stern hasn't upgraded the back box speakers, it's fair to think the improvements come from Spike.
- The new power supply has a noisy fan. Isn't on all the time, but when it's on it's noisy. None of my other pins have a noisy fan (or any fan at all).
- The on/off switch is in an inconvenient location. Doesn't bother taller folks or folks with room for more to squeeze between pins.
If anyone is aware of other Spike benefits I'm missing, feel free to educate.

Good points. It seems like the Spike systems biggest benefit to Stern is lower manufacturing costs versus the old system. What sucks is pricing is still high and continues to go up while we see changes like the redesigned back box and lock mech, removal of service rails / traditional lock down bar on pro's, less mechanical features being put into games, and the relocation of the power button. All of these changes are to save a few bucks here and there on each game but when multiplied over hundreds of games I'm sure the number adds up in a big way.

Stern, don't take features away and cheapen your games and in the process screw your customers with the same prices. You are charging $5k-$8k for pinball machines....pinball machines...the power button should be in a convenient location for that price.

LOTR NIB in 2003: $3500 = $4300 in today's dollar according to U.S Department of Labor inflation calculator. Artwork printed on cabinet, service rails + traditional lockdown bar, metal ramps and rails, multiple mechanical devices / toys.

Today's Stern Pro's: $4700. Decals, no service rails, no traditional lock down bar, cheaper backbox, less toys compared to older games (that's what the Premium / LE's are for so even worse in that case)

#253 5 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Good points. It seems like the Spike systems biggest benefit to Stern is lower manufacturing costs versus the old system. What sucks is pricing is still high and continues to go up while we see changes like the redesigned back box and lock mech, removal of service rails / traditional lock down bar on pro's, less mechanical features being put into games, and the relocation of the power button. All of these changes are to save a few bucks here and there on each game but when multiplied over hundreds of games I'm sure the number adds up in a big way.

I lifted my KISS PF and was disappointed with the new, less-than-great service rails (see photo). The only possible benefit is the new rails take up less space inside the cabinet. Since the cabinet is nearly empty now, that's not a big benefit The original rails made it so easy to clean/service the flippers and bottom half of the PF. Now it's more cumbersome. Cost savings? Who knows?

The on/off was also moved to save cost. The power supply, power cord and switch use the same metal box shielding located in the BB. This apparently reduces UL certification testing cost. Since on/off has been outside the BB for generations, UL certification is obviously possible. Anyone who thinks that the new design required the on/off be located in the BB is misinformed.

None of us know what Stern's margins are. Apple's margins are a hair shy of 40%. 30-40% profit margins are unheard of in the very competitive consumer electronics business. DELL is lucky if they make 5-10% when they sell a laptop/PC.

I would guess that Stern's margins are improving. Until they get some real competition, it's unlikely they kick the cash back to us. Stern's core competency is manufacturing and they are currently doing it better than anyone else (by a lot).

KISS Premium definitely looks "cheaper" than the AC/DC Premium in my lineup. For all the bitching, KISS is still a nice looking, fun pin for ~6k.

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#254 5 years ago

Whoa, I didn't realize the service rails were so low on KISS.

#255 5 years ago

Im certain Stern will sell you a set of the old ones.

#256 5 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

First of all, Steve is not a troll. Far from it. Look at his posting history, he is generally a voice of reason.
Looking over your posts in this thread you mentioned having a SPIKE ACDC for 2 years. I am going to go out on a limb and put some of the blame on you for this whole mess. It is a beta tester's responsibility to give honest and brutal reviews of a product and not be a yes-man. If I had a SPIKE machine as a beta tester, I would have told Stern over and over and over the same thing: "I can reach this switch no problem, but a lot of people won't be able to. If you release the SPIKE games like this it will be a HUGE mistake and people will bitch like mad about it. I'm dead serious. Do whatever it takes to put the switch back under the cabinet even if it means and extra $100 on the MSRP."

Steve may not be a troll most of the time, but for him to argue of the use of wording in the two same responses from Stern is ridiculous and he is doing so only to entice an argument. As far as I am concerned he is trolling for an argument considering the response I gave initially was not good enough for him so he contacts George directly and gets the same response from him. Then he argues that these are not the same reasons for moving the switch all because of the use of the word benefit and not requirement. Basically it is a benefit to be UL approved and one of the requirements to that benefit is that the switch had to be located where it was with the Spike design. Seems to me that he is splitting hairs rather than just admitting it is the same damn thing.

I found out of the UL requirement because I complained to the engineer about the location of the power switch. He told me it was a requirement to be in the back box and that was the only location in the back box that would work. I have to agree that there really is not another location in the back box to make that work. Beyond that I highly doubt the engineers at stern or anyone else really for that matters cares what one person has to say about the switch location if it means redesigning their new system. I knew this storm would hit as more of the Spike titles were released. It is a crappy change I agree, however I am happy to give up the switch location for the new spike system any day of the week. Things change and not always for the best as with the power switch in question, however we will all get over it when something new and unimportant changes and the attention is focused on that instead.

You know you say go ahead and add $100 to msrp but everyone here already complains about the price of the game, if they were to raise the price of the game $100 people here would go on and on about how these games are over priced. Reality is, Stern pros are cheap. Not one other company can build and release new games that run the buyer in the mid 4k range, stern does and they do it successfully.

#257 5 years ago

A huge benefit of the spike system is the original power driver boards limited the number of flashers and coils that could be used. With the new chain system, the number of coils and flashers is potentially limitless. Another advantage is LCD integration vs dmd. The hardware can handle both displays. There are numerous other features that have been mentioned in this thread and others and more that have yet to be released. This is a system that will be used for the next 10 or so years, so the possibilities although not demonstrated currently are plentiful.

#258 5 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

It is a crappy change I agree, however I am happy to give up the switch location for the new spike system any day of the week. Things change and not always for the best as with the power switch in question, however we will all get over it when something new and unimportant changes and the attention is focused on that instead.

It's great that you are happy to give up the switch. It's great that you complained initially.

Doesn't mean changing the on/off location wasn't a stupid, gratuitous change. The PF supports are another stupid change. Now it's harder to work on the lower half of the PF. The sum of stupid changes bothers some of us.

I understand Stern is the only game in town...doesn't mean we can't voice our opinion. If Spike came with more end-user benefits, then I'd be much more sympathetic of your mindset. In other words, win some, lose some. I get it. Unfortunately, the LCD is still monochrome and low-resolution and we are forced to hope that ColorDMD will "save the day" for those of us who enjoy the ColorDMD products (which are addictive and expensive). Add to that, the Premium mechs that don't work all the time...hopefully the software tweaks will save the day, since the hardware is what it is...

#259 5 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

A huge benefit of the spike system is the original power driver boards limited the number of flashers and coils that could be used. With the new chain system, the number of coils and flashers is potentially limitless. Another advantage is LCD integration vs dmd. The hardware can handle both displays. There are numerous other features that have been mentioned in this thread and others and more that have yet to be released. This is a system that will be used for the next 10 or so years, so the possibilities although not demonstrated currently are plentiful.

Endless possibilities are great. How many Spike systems will be shipped before we start seeing some of these advancements? I'm a software dude by trade and I'm keenly aware that without great software to drive this hardware, it won't benefit us...

#260 5 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

It's great that you are happy to give up the switch. It's great that you complained initially.
Doesn't mean changing the on/off location wasn't a stupid, gratuitous change. The PF supports are another stupid change. Now it's harder to work on the lower half of the PF. The sum of stupid changes bothers some of us.
I understand Stern is the only game in town...doesn't mean we can't voice our opinion. If Spike came with more end-user benefits, then I'd be much more sympathetic of your mindset. In other words, win some, lose some. I get it. Unfortunately, the LCD is still monochrome and low-resolution and we are forced to hope that ColorDMD will "save the day" for those of us who enjoy the ColorDMD products (which are addictive and expensive). Add to that, the Premium mechs that don't work all the time...hopefully the software tweaks will save the day, since the hardware is what it is...

Couldn't agree more about the stupid support brackets. I have yet to inquire about that, but there would be no cost savings there so I can't imagine why they would do that. I hate working on flippers with it low like this. As for color, give that time, it will happen, its just a matter of time. As everyone knows, Stern is tight lipped about new things but its all there and pointing to that direction. I only hope they don't hit us for a price increase when it does happen.

Quoted from snaroff:

Endless possibilities are great. How many Spike systems will be shipped before we start seeing some of these advancements? I'm a software dude by trade and I'm keenly aware that without great software to drive this hardware, it won't benefit us...

I don't honestly know. I have just spoken with a few of the engineers randomly and they seem to be fairly excited about it. I hate when people compare pinball to other industries but that's exactly what I am about to do. If you look at the PS3, that game could have done so much more than it was ever pushed to do with the hardware that system had, yet sony bailed and moved onto ps4. I sincerely hope that is not what happens with Stern and I would be very surprised if that was the case, but hey you never know. I just don't see why they would develop a new system and not use the benefits beyond what the old system was capable of.

#261 5 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

Couldn't agree more about the stupid support brackets. I have yet to inquire about that, but there would be no cost savings there so I can't imagine why they would do that. I hate working on flippers with it low like this.

I inquired, but the response isn't worth repeating. The only benefit is the brackets are shorter, so they won't interfere with cabinet parts (like speakers, power supplies, etc.). As we know, the cabinet is almost entirely empty now, so that potential benefit is really hard to appreciate.

I can only speculate that they changed suppliers AND saved a few bucks. If the old bracket cost them $10 and the new bracket costs $5, someone saved 50% on this part! I know it's silly given the cost of the pin, but if it's someone's job to save money on the "small stuff", they just got a pat on the back from their boss

btw...just so we are clear on the on/off switch. Just received an email from GG that confirms moving the on/off was Stern's decision (and NOT a requirement for UL certification). Stern will not be moving it again, so we will all have to make plans accordingly.

#262 5 years ago

I like the lower rails. It makes it easier to work on the playfield with it at a lower angle. That high angle has always bothered me and makes it so the playfield will only stay put in the one spot fully pulled forward. When I work on things under the playfield like flippers, I lift the playfield all the way to the back box like it is meant to be. To me this is an improvement in serviceability. I read and re-read all of the complaints above and I am still scratching my head. Shrug.

#263 5 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

I like the lower rails. It makes it easier to work on the playfield with it at a lower angle. That high angle has always bothered me and makes it so the playfield will only stay put in the one spot fully pulled forward. When I work on things under the playfield like flippers, I lift the playfield all the way to the back box like it is meant to be. To me this is an improvement in serviceability. I read and re-read all of the complaints above and I am still scratching my head. Shrug.

Maybe height related as well? When the PF is all the way up, reaching the flippers is a PITA for me. I've always liked steep angle of the Stern brackets. Different strokes I guess.

Again, if there were some obvious benefits like high-res color, it would be much easier not to focus on this small shit.

#264 5 years ago

I wonder if the old rails and new ones are interchangeable? I might like a low set for my STLE!

#265 5 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

You know you say go ahead and add $100 to msrp but everyone here already complains about the price of the game, if they were to raise the price of the game $100 people here would go on and on about how these games are over priced. Reality is, Stern pros are cheap. Not one other company can build and release new games that run the buyer in the mid 4k range, stern does and they do it successfully.

Prices have gone up $100 each Pro release, it's just accepted at this point. The problem is feature related, so with every $100 bump in price Stern also cuts out something useful, particularly in the Pro line. If pegs and latches were superior in some way they would have been removed from all models, rather than used as part of the upsell. As snaroff pointed out, inflation adjusted costs shows Pros of yesteryear were relatively cheaper than today's Pros, so we're likely looking at Premiums as the more valid comparison, particularly as Stern has also started to take away Premium features like powder coated armor That full featured game we used to get for $3300 NIB is now $6600... so either Stern is working on Apple-like 40% margins, or we are fortunate they has managed to cut $2k of manufacturing costs per game to keep a model available in the mid $4k range. I have my doubts about either option.

#266 5 years ago
Quoted from Baiter:

The problem is feature related, so with every $100 bump in price Stern also cuts out something useful, particularly in the Pro line.

How long before they start cutting out useful playfield features like subways and ball locks then?

#267 5 years ago

Why did Stern stop making coin door decals? That kind of sucks since they're some what cool if made good looking.

#268 5 years ago
Quoted from Donnyman:

Why did Stern stop making coin door decals? That kind of sucks since they're some what cool if made good looking.

I noticed this as well. The coin door is a slightly different design without the embossed area which used to have the decal located.

#269 5 years ago

For the record, at mid day probably around 5.75' tall and it took some reaching, but I was able to get to the switch on a KISS this weekend. Very exciting to finally get in all the fun!

#270 5 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

How long before they start cutting out useful playfield features like subways and ball locks then?

Already done. Virtual ball locks on Met Pro and Kiss Pro.

#271 5 years ago
Quoted from smassa:

Omg they moved the power switch. Big deal instead if bending over to turn it in you have to lean forward a lil bit.

Try leaning over for the power switch when you have a row of pins up against a wall.Let me know how that goes?.

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