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(Topic ID: 284252)

Kings and Queens....plug it in and the ball release coil is stuck on..

By insight75

3 years ago

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18 posts
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Latest reply 3 years ago by weeze
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Kings & Queens Gottlieb, 1965

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#1 3 years ago

G S

Picked up a Kings and Queens today....my first EM.....I have a lot to learn.....and I will be doing lots of research here.....when I plug it in (I did replace the cord), it lights up....a motor in the bottom cab stays on constantly and the ball release coil holds open and the balls will just keep cycling...also, the only other thing that work are the Kickout coils.....no scoring....no flippers...nothing. Where do I begin? It did come with a schematic and I will be looking this over....but in case there is something simple I can check.....let me know your thoughts...Thanks for any help you can provide.

#2 3 years ago

EJS

Pinball Outpost

11y 223K 14,848 1

This happened on my kings and queens I had my connectors in the back flip flopped. Double check those first.

This should be stuck open when you start a game and release once you start scoring points.

#3 3 years ago

G S

insight75

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 104K 3,434 1

Thanks for the response. I checked the connectors and they are ok. All wires match the corresponding connector wires. I will try cleaning all of them tomorrow but I don't think this will help. Would the ball release be stuck open when first turning on the game? I don't have any coin mechs on my door.....so not sure how a game would actually start. The door button only seems to work if I hit a tilt switch and then it restarts when pushing the button.

#4 3 years ago

EJS

Pinball Outpost

11y 223K 14,848 1

It sounds like you are on the right track and things are working except the reset isn’t quite completing.

For fun try moving the large arm on the relay banks in the cabinet and under the playfield. If you are able to trigger the relays individually I believe they mounted the reset under the playfield on this particular game. It sounds like you are missing a contact somewhere along the reset sequence.

Have you been out to Marvin3m site recently? He documented the proper reset procedure and you can pinpoint what’s not happening for you.

Starting a game will be via the start button that looks like a coin reject except it has a shorted path to travel inward and hangs a little lower than the coin reject buttons.

#5 3 years ago

???

Vintage-Pinball

Pinside+ Frequent

Linton

11y 61,550 746 28 10

Machines with kick- out holes are designed to operate if a ball stays in a hole if power is interrupted or tilted so it's normal.
Are the score reels resetting to zero? If any are not at zero, the reset cycle hasn't completed. If so, with the power off, remove the reel and manually advance it to zero, put it back and try again. If the machine runs ok, then the switches in that reel need attention.

Also, the replay counter will have a switch, the centre one in its stack, if memory serves, which will be closed if reel shows one or more credits. Most people simply short that out so the game thinks it's got credit and therefore that's why it would start a game when you press the little red button on the front door. ( not a bad idea to check the fish papers' condition at the back of that switch too as it has mains voltage running to it)

Lastly, theres a lot of good information on em machines on www.pinrepair.com. Have a good read through it to get a better understanding of how your machine works.

#6 3 years ago

LSW

Runbikeskilee

Pinside member

7y 43,150 722 10

OP
Quoted from insight75:
when I plug it in (I did replace the cord), it lights up....a motor in the bottom cab stays on constantly and the ball release coil holds open and the balls will just keep cycling...

Are you saying that the ball release coil is energized when just plugging in the machine, but without pressing the credit button to start a game?

#7 3 years ago

G S

insight75

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 104K 3,434 1

Thanks guys. Great information. I was able to push in the tilt relay and the score wheel stopped....curious I put the playfield back down and it started working! I played a game......after the 5th ball the flippers and such stopped working as would be normal. Once I clicked on the button on the coin door, the scoring reels turned back to zero (except the first one which stayed at whatever number it was) and the scoring wheel again keeps turning. So it seems like that tilt relay has something to do with it. I did look over all the tilt mechanisms first thing and all looked ok.

#8 3 years ago

G S

insight75

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 104K 3,434 1

Quoted from Runbikeskilee:
Are you saying that the ball release coil is energized when just plugging in the machine, but without pressing the credit button to start a game?

Yes indeed. Until I press that tilt relay like I indicated above.

#9 3 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,251

Normal reset sequence for Kings & Queens:

Pressing the Replay button trips the Start relay (SB) on the 10 relay Control bank
SB starts the motor running
Large Control bank setup and Sequence bank setup coils reset those 2 relay banks
Sequence bank reset latches Reset relay (DB)
DB keeps motor running, activates Ball release, and resets all 3 score reels
Ball release stays activated until player scores 1 point
When all 3 score reels get to 0, DB trips and score motor stops running
Game is ready to play

OP
Quoted from insight75:
it seems like that tilt relay has something to do with it

That's because the Tilt relay trips the DB relay, so the Tilt relay isn't the root cause of your problem.

OP
Quoted from insight75:
the scoring reels turned back to zero (except the first one which stayed at whatever number it was)

Check the 0 position switches on the non-resetting score reel, and the DB relay switch that's in series with that 0 position switch.

Or if you have the schematic and you'd like to try a phone call, send me your cellphone number in a private message and I'll make a first reply with a text message.

#10 3 years ago

G S

insight75

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 104K 3,434 1

Quoted from HowardR:
Normal reset sequence for Kings & Queens:

Pressing the Replay button trips the Start relay (SB) on the 10 relay Control bank
SB starts the motor running
Large Control bank setup and Sequence bank setup coils reset those 2 relay banks
Sequence bank reset latches Reset relay (DB)
DB keeps motor running, activates Ball release, and resets all 3 score reels
Ball release stays activated until player scores 1 point
When all 3 score reels get to 0, DB trips and score motor stops running
Game is ready to play

That's because the Tilt relay trips the DB relay, so the Tilt relay isn't the root cause of your problem.

Check the 0 position switches on the non-resetting score reel, and the DB relay switch in series with that 0 position switch.
Or if you have the schematic and you'd like to try a phone call, send me your cellphone number in a private message and I'll make a first reply with a text message.

Thank you for this. Will have another look a bit later and reach out to you if i still don't see anything obvious. Really appreciate the info and the offer to chat.

#11 3 years ago

G S

insight75

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 104K 3,434 1

I made some progress with this. The last thing I tried seemed to resolve the issue...what I did was I cleaned each of the 0 switches for all of the score reels (instead of just the ones reel). This issue hasn't come back. All was going great for a while but a new problem has now developed. First, I couldn't get it to go to game over. But after manually resetting all of the relays that seemed to resolve itself at least for now. Now I can't get the ones to carry over to the tens. For instance, if I get 05 points when I have 07, it goes to 02 points and does not increase the tens and go to 12. However, it will increase the tens if I hit a target that is worth ten points. I haven't dug in to this issue yet but hoping its a simple fix..... Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

#12 3 years ago

LSW

Runbikeskilee

Pinside member

7y 43,150 722 10

No carryover to the 10-pt score reel? Clean/adjust the 9-pt switch on the 1-point score reel. That switch is NO and should only close when 9 is showing on the 1-pt reel. Might also need to clean the switches on the 1-pt relay.

#13 3 years ago

G S

insight75

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 104K 3,434 1

Yes indeed. Thanks. I tried that and made sure when I turn manually that it works as it should. Open unless its on number 9. I was reading that the other side of the EOS switch is actually another 9 switch. I haven't looked at this yet. Will also check the switches on the 1 point relay. Will do this tomorrow and report back.

#14 3 years ago

G S

insight75

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 104K 3,434 1

This issue really has me stumped. All the switches on the scoring reel and relay look good. All clean and gaps look great on the switches. Still can't get the 10s wheel to move up. I'm not seeing on the schematic what should be happening once that 9 switch engages. Where should I look next?

#15 3 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,251

If the 10 Point relay (M) doesn't activate when the 1 Point relay (N) activates to go from 9 points to 10, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156

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#16 3 years ago

G S

insight75

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 104K 3,434 1

Thank you! Will give that a shot.

#17 3 years ago

G S

insight75

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 104K 3,434 1

I used the alligator clips on the 9 point switch on the ones point relay and boom.....it counted up.......so it was indeed the switch not making contact. I check it 10 times and really thought it was making good contact. Anyway....after adjustment on the contacts all is working. Thats it for now. Thanks everyone for the help. I took a chance on this machine not seeing it work before I bought it and I'm happy with a few tweaks I was able to resolve all issues for now.

1 week later

#18 3 years ago

JWW

weeze

Inactive member

6y 42,150 199

I have this same problem on a ICE REVUE. I just posted a HELP post in the EM TECH forum. On my game the gate pulls open and lets the balls drop and will not deactivate. this happens at start up, I cant even get a game started , happens when the game is plugged in. Game will not start, nothing works. So Im thinking that one of the switches up at the top where there are 5 roll overs, the ball HAS to go over one of these. is this where you are talking?
I other words is the game designed for that ball gate to be open until something gets scored as in one of the 5 roll overs, and THAT shuts off the juice to the ball gate coil?
Thanks, boy I hope this is the problem.

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