(Topic ID: 249692)

KingPin 5000 PT Special Issue

By tscottn

4 years ago


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  • 23 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by MrBally
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 4 years ago

Hey Guys,
Been restoring a Gottlieb KingPin for a few months now and I have one last problem that keeps cropping up every now and then. Hoping someone may be able to help.

Every now and then after all 10 drop targets are downed the first time and you get the 5000 pt special lit, it will randomly go away.. It doesn't happen all the time but probably 50% of the time is my estamite. So let me clarify a bit.. When all the drop targets are downed, the 5000 pt sequence completed (G) relay will energize, and while any ball is in play, the G relay will de-energize for unknown reason. It seems very random and does not follow any sort of pattern and does not happen all the time..

Looking at the schematic, I see that contact 5a green and white wire is used to hold the relay closed. I have cleaned and adjusted this contact and it seems to be OK. For troubleshooting purposes, I am able to stick a piece of a piece of paper between this contact and get the relay to de-energize. I have also not noticed anywhere on the schematic that anything is able to reset this relay once it is activated, with the exception of the reset function, but the machine is not resetting itself and no other anomalies happen.. The Relay just randomly drops out..

I am not sure where to look next.. I did a search on google and I came up with someone who was having this issue years ago with the same machine, but his issue was related to the stepper unit on the ball count resetting, so it only happened to him when the ball would drain and the next ball would be put in play. My issue is random and happens while the same ball or any other ball is in play. any thoughts on where to look would be great!

Thank You

#3 4 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Sounds like you're looking at the right switch.
For a switch to work 3 things are necessary
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)
2) When closing, the long blade's contact point should push the short blade's contact point enough to move the short blade
3) The contact points should be clean, which they usually will be if #2 is happening

So i feel like 1, 2, 3 are all checked. is there anything else I should be looking at?

#5 4 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Is the situation different if you change the number of balls per game from 5 to 3 or vice-versa?

i have not tried that .. I can and report back

#7 4 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Is the situation different if you change the number of balls per game from 5 to 3 or vice-versa?

Hey MrBally I switched to 3 ball play and could not duplicate the issue. The Special 5000pt stays lit and does not go out at all. I played over 30 games and it is solid on 3 ball play. So that being said, where do you think my problem is?

Also it's probably smart to mention that on 3 ball play the 5k special is lit at the start of the game.

#8 4 years ago
Quoted from fixintoplay:

Random "acts" in an EM pin are the worst kind. I'm sure you've checked all the drop target switch contacts. Some are momentary and make verifying integrity difficult. Just curious. You mention you've been "restoring" the machine. Does this mean you've pulled the bottom panel out and gone through, checked relays, springs, movements, gaps, loose connections, etc., including the entire score motor? It's a lot easier to see things when they're out in the open, at least for me.

I agree. I have not pulled the bottom board out of the machine yet but everything seems solid and adjusted properly.. no other issues are pending on this machine at all.. just this one .. and now after testing as suggested on 3 ball, i am not having the issue so it is something that is causing the issue on 5 ball play only

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

I don't have that schematic, but it could be a score motor sw. Do you have the card that tells what they do (usually stapled to the inside of the cab)?

I dont see a card for a score motor but why would it only affect 5 ball play and not 3 ball play?

#12 4 years ago

Good Morning,

So I found the culprit to this issue last night while doing extensive testing.. On 5 Ball play whenever the 5000 pt (G) relay is energized, If I hold down both flipper buttons at the same time, 50% of the time it will cause the G relay to denergize. If It doesn't do it the first time, I do it again and the G relay will drop out. So this is what is causing the issue. Nothing else on the PF causes this to happen, only holding the flipper buttons at the same time.

Im guessing this is a voltage issue of some sort. Let me also say that the game is on normal tap and that I have 4 yellow dot flipper coils in the game, however this was a issue before I changed to new coils.

So where should I start to try and resolve this issue?
Thanks

#15 4 years ago

Hi Lee,

I did clean and adjust the R relay make/break, and the 0 and 6 position switches on the ball count as well as the switch on the G relay that energizes the coil which I believe is the white /green, 5A contact. I can check the fuse and I am assuming the bounce switch is on the bottom board? You said you had the same problem before with yours, can you tell me what the culprit was?

Also, I checked the transformer voltage and it supplies 24v or more even with both flippers being held down. I probably didn't need yellow dots on the uppers but I wanted to try them out up there and I kind of like them, but TBH this problem was happening when I first got the machine with the normal coils installed on the upper and lower PF.

Im assuming that it could really be a currant issue but not sure where to start looking at that.

#17 4 years ago
Quoted from Runbikeskilee:

I haven't had the game for several years now, but IIRC, someone had replaced the return spring with a new one that looked proper, but was too stiff. All it took was some modest vibration, and the lockin switch would open up for a few milliseconds and the G relay would drop back out.
Yes, I think the bounce switch in question is the NC one located toward the front of the bottom board.
Just for troubleshooting, try exchanging the return spring with one from another similar size relay. Also gap that lockin switch very tightly, so that only a sliver of light shows between the contact faces when the relay is not energized.

Thanks for the info. So I tried replacing the spring on G and I also tried it without any spring at all and both results are the same. The flippers de-energized G. . I also jumpered the bounce switch as well as the 0 and 6th position switch on the ball count unit with the exact same results. One thing to note is that when both flippers are actuated I can see a slight flicker in the PF lighting. Im not sure if that might have a clue to it being a electrical issue or not.

As far as the 4c switch that currieddog mentioned, isint this a N/O switch so unless any scoring is going on this switch wouldn't have any contact?

I should make it clear that the PF is up in the service position so I am just using the flippers to de-energize the G relay without actually playing any game.

#20 4 years ago

Thanks Runbikeskilee and currieddog With regards to vibration I have tried smacking, wacking, shaking and hitting the PF and cab in so many ways and just cannot get it to duplicate like that, so I dont think vibration is a issue. Just for grins I am going to disconnect the Flipper coils on at a time and see if I can get it to happen, but like I mentioned I believe this was a issue before the new coils went in. . Also, I may try replacing that switch in the G relay as well. Weak solder joints may be a issue so I need to go through the board when I pull it out this week and really clean it up. I will report back my findings. Thanks for your help.

#22 4 years ago
Quoted from Runbikeskilee:

Sounds like a reasonable approach.
As Cdog suggests, might first try desoldering the wires to the lockin switch on the G relay and stripping off a clean 1/4" of bare wire and resoldering those wires. While in there, take a close look at the contact faces on the lockin switch. Could they be pitted or not flat against each other?
If problem still exists, then:
Maybe try desoldering the power wires to the 2 upper flips and trying to duplicate the issue.
If no change, then resolder those 2 wires and desolder the power wires to the lower flips and try to duplicate the issue.
I'm at a loss to figure out what else could be causing the drop out

Ok will do on all of those points. Thanks.. I will let you know how it goes

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