(Topic ID: 195358)

King of Diamonds start up sequence

By swtrains

6 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 77 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by swtrains
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

0King-of-Diamonds-Work-12 (resized).jpg
PICT0020 (resized).JPG
King of Diamonds with extra relays (resized).jpg
IMG_0627 (resized).jpg
PICT0018 (resized).jpg
0Orbit-Work-21 (resized).jpg
PICT0014 (resized).JPG
PICT0003 (resized).JPG
PICT0009 (resized).JPG
PICT0007 (resized).JPG
PICT0006 (resized).JPG
PICT0005 (resized).JPG
0King-of-Diamonds-Work-11 (resized).jpg
PICT0001 (resized).JPG
PICT0063 (resized).JPG
PICT0062 (resized).JPG
There are 77 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 6 years ago

Hi Rick
we (more or less) wait patiently for You to put-in a new fuse --- and to plug-in the plug with the 4 males into the socket so one of the males is plugged-in into the "socket with no wire soldered-on onto the socket" - You then have the transformer set to "use with 220 to 240 VAC".
Look here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/50hz-transformer#post-3738591 at the third JPG - an picture of my Gottlieb "Orbit" in the "220 to 240VAC" mode.
"V1" is just the holding of the socket. Unfortunately the socket "V6" is not clearly visible as wires are running through the picture at this place --- one of the males of the plug is plugged-in into this "V6 socket having no wire soldered-on". Greetings Rolf

#52 6 years ago
Quoted from swtrains:

Hi Doug - thanks for the advice! If its no big problem, I would appreciate not just transformer shots, but also shots of the control board, as mine seems to differ in a few ways from the IPDB pictures.
I like the sound of the fuse holders, and will see how I get on with my fuse swapping first.
Rolf, I will post back when/if I make some progress. Your advice has been much valued, now it is down to me to make use of it.
Regards,
Rick

Ok. I gave to pull another machine out tomorrow anyway so I'll get KoD too and take pictures for you, as requested. Hopefully, again with Rolf's help, these pictures and his thoughts will get you up and running. It's a great game and worth the wait.

Here's the link to those fuses: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Re-settable-Thermal-circuit-breaker-fuse-5-10-15-20-30-Amp-ranges-/381691539350?var=&hash=item58de96af96:m:m1DxVipDvkI24efnntl37DA

You just need to solder an old fuse onto the legs and it's ready to use.

#53 6 years ago

If it has any significance, I have replaced the Jones plug in the correct holes and have applied line power to the isolated control board.

Then, I have manually engaged the S relay and forced closed temporarily the G and hold relays.

No fuse blow!

Now I know this may not have much significance until the board is back in the machine and connected, but it did cheer me up a little.

If anyone can see any obvious omissions to the above, I would welcome their advice. I will be so upset if I replace the board and find I am still blowing fuses - although it might suggest that the short may be in the backbox, I guess.

#54 6 years ago

Hi Rick +
the subject "Fuses" is of interest to me - I once started an topic --- https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/why-does-an-1-amp-slow-blow-fuse-not-blow-control-bank-reset , I am not an electro-tecnician --- in post-11 is "Rolf's fault in thinking" --- I then (summer 2016) said to me: In my pins the fuses do "seldom to never" blow - I put the subject away for some time and do some testing - when I (can) buy fast-blow and slow-blow fuses of 0.8, 1.0, 1.2, 1.5 etc. to 10, 12, 15, 16, 20 Amp Fuses. Up to now I didn't buy such fuses ...

Rick - a simple test is: Have spare 7.5 Amp fuse ready - toggle-off the pin and unplug*** the main power cord. Then change the Adj-plug to 110VAC setting , plug-in, toggle-on, start a game - does the fuse blow ?
Unplug***: Safety Reasons , here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/help-identifying-royal-guard-hot-wire-please in post-2 is a picture with the word "hot" --- here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-dodge-city-doingjust-weird-stuff#post-3306114 a little story to "hot / power / phase / phasis" on the wrong lug - , also: May want to read post-41.
Since then I always unplug the main power cord when I "just look at / work on the pin" - I only plug-in for testing.

Rick, since posts "34/35/36/37" we are on the problem "fuses" --- we actually try to get Your pin running --- where are we at ? - What is the next problem in "not running" ? Greetings Rolf
P.S.: I hold back "theory and questions to fuses" until You have put the board back into the pin and have connected everything.

#55 6 years ago

Rolf (and others) a little update.

The machine is back together again and fires up without blowing the primary fuse. But the embarassing part is the fact that, only when reassembling the machine did I notice the below image attached to the wall of the cabinet.

I can't understand how I never noticed it before - I feel a total idiot! - and I have wasted Rolf's valuable time looking for a solution that was right in front of me. Huge apologies, Rolf.

As to the operation of the machine, I left it at the stage where the score motor spins continuously. Presumably a score reel not registering a reset. I'll get to it when I feel fresh again and hopefully will have a machine that has power for all 5 balls. And maybe even kicks the ball.

Maybe. Regards - Rick

PICT0014 (resized).JPGPICT0014 (resized).JPG

#56 6 years ago

Hi Rick
great - no more extraordinary problems --- back to normal stuff. Stop blaming Yourself --- actually You helped me - made me think of "must bring back to life / resurrect my topic about fuses".

The problem "Score-Motor runs and runs and runs": The Score-Motor and many Relays have a so-called "Self-Hold-Switch" - when started / actuated: The Motor / Relay closes this / its Self-Hold-Switch and it will run forever*** / pull forever***.
Well not forever*** as in the pin on another place something is made opening an switch - and this switch is also in the wiring of the "Self-Hold-Circuitry" - this switch made opening cuts the Self-Hold-Circuitry of the running Score-Motor / pulling Relay.
Example of Self-Hold-Switch etc.: See in the JPG my "red-10, -11, -12" - something makes the (red-10) M-100-Point-Relay pull-in - it actuates all switches - so the (red-11) "Self-Hold-Switch" closes and the relay pulls forever*** --- well, not forever*** as the moved plunger on the 100-Point-Score-Drum opens (red-12) Switch and cuts "Self-Hold-Circuitry" --- "red-10" let go and so its switches move back - so "red-11" opens - End of giving 100 points.
Another example of Self-Hold-Switch etc.: See in the JPG my "orange-6, -7" - something makes the (orange-6) Score-Motor start running --- after about 15 to 16 degrees of running / turning: The (orange-7) Self-Hold-Switch closes - stays closed - keeps the motor therefore running - the motor reaches degrees 118, 119, 120 and orange-7 opens --- motor stops.

Example of "a bit more complex feature 'making 500 points' actually means 'making five times 100 points by calling for help of a Score-Motor-Turn which will make the Score-Motor-Switch-1A to pulse five times to activate five times the M-100-Point-Relay' ": The ball on the playfield closes (green-1) a switch on a target worth 500 points - and then comes 2,3,4 ... 10,11,12 and ends with 21,22,23,24,25,26.

Rick, You plug-in Your pin and the motor runs a bit --- it does the end of a turn - and reaching 120 degrees: "7/25 opens and so the "motor 6/26" stops. Look in Your schematics near the symbol of the Score-Motor --- WHAT relays make the motor eventually turn --- when Your motor comes to "endlessly running": WHICH of these "relays in quetion" does constantly pulls ? Greetings Rolf

0Orbit-Work-21 (resized).jpg0Orbit-Work-21 (resized).jpg

1 week later
#57 6 years ago

Hi Rolf
sorry for the delay, sometimes I just need to walk away from that machine.......

If it helps ( and I think I understand what you are asking of me - please correct me if wrong ) I fire up the machine, the score motor spins, and the hold and start relays remain pulled in. No other relays are pulled in.

If I manually close the start relay, the score motor stops. If I manually operate the reset bar that relay DB operates, then the score motor stops.

So presumably the faulty switch is before the DB relay gets pulled in.

The generic start up sequence that I am trying to follow says that the S relay should be followed by the AS relay, which is shown on my schematic (circled in yellow) and labelled as "2 coins per play relay" - yet I can find no trace of it on my machine.

Can you give me a gentle nudge in the right direction again, please? Many thanks!

Note to Doug - the site wont seem to let me reply to your PM. So, could you possibly take a couple of shots of your playfield, so I can compare? Thanks!

PICT0018 (resized).jpgPICT0018 (resized).jpg

#58 6 years ago

Hi. Do you want playfield images, or score motor board images? I thought it was the latter but didn't go any further when you realised your spot-the-deliberate-mistake moment with your transformer
So let me know what you want and I'll do it with pleasure.

Doug.

#59 6 years ago
Quoted from swtrains:

Hi Rolf
sorry for the delay, sometimes I just need to walk away from that machine.......
If it helps ( and I think I understand what you are asking of me - please correct me if wrong ) I fire up the machine, the score motor spins, and the hold and start relays remain pulled in. No other relays are pulled in.
If I manually close the start relay, the score motor stops. If I manually operate the reset bar that relay DB operates, then the score motor stops.
So presumably the faulty switch is before the DB relay gets pulled in.
The generic start up sequence that I am trying to follow says that the S relay should be followed by the AS relay, which is shown on my schematic (circled in yellow) and labelled as "2 coins per play relay" - yet I can find no trace of it on my machine.
Can you give me a gentle nudge in the right direction again, please? Many thanks!
Note to Doug - the site wont seem to let me reply to your PM. So, could you possibly take a couple of shots of your playfield, so I can compare? Thanks!

Seeing I have a KOD disassembled in the shop, I thought I would assist on this. However I too am puzzled for the lack of locating a relay shown as "AS" 2 Coins Per Play, as well as "D" 2 play Relay.

On the underside of my play field there is a 4 bank relay as follows, "?" missing letter, "E", "F", "J". The last 3 are for the pop bumpers. I believe the "?" is "A" relay. Neither of these 2 missing relays are shown on the lower relay board.

So I would like to know if these machines did in fact have the "AS' and "D" relays installed.

#60 6 years ago

Pic of the lower relay board.

IMG_0627 (resized).jpgIMG_0627 (resized).jpg

#61 6 years ago

Doug, I really don't know why I typed "playfield" when I was thinking "control board" - put it down to a senior moment! Apologies for creating unneeded confusion. As Playdium has kindly stepped into the breach with his control board pic, however, I now have my picture.

Playdium - thank goodness for your post, confirming I am not going totally mad. I too have that mystery relay next to the pop bumper relays, and like yours, it is unlabelled. It might explain why my schematic shows an AS relay while my machine seems not to have one!

I wonder why the control board shown on the IPDB has 2 extra relays in the centre and what they do? I thought initially it was because it was showing a machine for the American market, but yours is also an American machine. Could either of these be the missing AS or D relays?

Thanks to all! Rick

#62 6 years ago

Hi Rick, Doug +
the flyer in ipdb http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1372&picno=4902&zoom=1 says in the lower left corner: Available with triple coin chute combinations. Other flyers I have seen telling "Available with one --- or two --- or three coin chutes".
How many coin chutes does YOUR pin have ? IF it has only two chutes: The funny chute "You must throw-in to coins (one after the other) to start ONE game" - this funny chute probably is missing in Your pin and Gottlieb (saving money) did not mount the relay to handle "Two coins must be thrown-in to activate the S-Start-Relay" --- see Your JPG in post-57: Horizontal line using "1st. Coin Chute" makes the AS-Relay pull-in - and the second coin through this chute then (closed switch on AS-Relay) makes the S-Start-Relay activate.

Does Your pin has an coin-adjustment-instruction card ? I look at the JPG in post-57 - I use some fantasy / imagination - I let the "Triple-Chute-Adj adjusted down --- the second coin-chute then makes the D-Relay pull-in - it closes some switches --- the "Self-Hold-Switch on W-Relay is bypassed / overridden --- means the W-Relay gets activated. I do not completely understand the D-Relay functionality (((I know that Gottlieb Liberty Belle can be adjusted: ONE Coin thrown-in adds ONE Replay onto the Replay-Counter and also STARTS ONE GAME))) --- You do not have such relays - why bother ?

Please post a link to Your "generic Start-up procedure" --- poor us: Gottlieb used over the years some letters for completely different relays --- (((also: AS is not AX ---))) please post the link.

Troubleshooting - Your Score-Motor starts running when You plug-in the pin --- at the end of post-56 I was asking about the relays that make the motor run --- on top of the JPG in post-57 I see "W DB O B G C Motor-1C-Self-Hold-Switch-on-the-motor" --- are we lucky and You see one of these relays pulling ? Greetings Rolf

#63 6 years ago

My machine has 2 chutes, 10 cents and 25 cents. Gottlieb did not install the "AS Relay, 2 Coins Per Play", nor the "D Relay, 2 Play Relay" on it. It does however have the "W 3rd Chute Relay".

#64 6 years ago

This sounds like it's a case of homeless relays that aren't connected to extra chutes. I say this because I have a handful of imported UK games that have a bunch of unconnected, assorted cables on the motor board that are simply left tied up from the factory. I would think that they would be used if an operator wanted to add an extra chute to, i.e the standard play, in this case, would be 6d per play (in pre-decimal coin days; the UK went decimal in 1970) or a florin and perhaps one for half a crown, thus the 3 chutes.

I can remember playing KoD when new and cannot recal ever having to drop 2 x 6d coins in to start a game. 2nd and 3rd chute machines normally gave, particularly the half crown versions, an bonus extra credit.

#65 6 years ago

A local collector just sent me pictures of his lower relay board. It does show 2 additional relays that my machine does not have. One is an "AG" type relay which looks to be the "D 2 Play Relay", and an "AS" type relay which is the "AS 2 Coins Per Play Relay". I compared the wiring to the schematic and it matches.

So depending how the machine was optioned for coin chutes, dictates the relay assemblies.

#66 6 years ago

Here's a pic showing the 2 extra relays.

King of Diamonds with extra relays (resized).jpgKing of Diamonds with extra relays (resized).jpg

#67 6 years ago

Hi Rolf
this is the link to the generic start up sequence -

http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/tip0450.html

When the motor is spinning, the only relays pulled in are S and R.

Is that all the information you needed or are there other things I need to look for? Regards - Rick

#68 6 years ago

Just been out for another look at my machine - it only has one coin slot.

The reset bank in the back box seems to be a source of a lot of trouble. When I loosen the 2 wingnuts on the reset bar and move the whole assembly slightly, the score motor stops spinning. Problem solved!

And at the same time, the ball will (occasionally) kick out into the shooter lane. So this would seem to be my only remaining issue. I can't seem to replicate what exactly causes the ball to kick out when it does, I can only assume one of the switches on the DB relay is involved in the process.

So, playfield energy on ball 1 - fixed! Score motor spinning - fixed! Just that ball kicker to go....... Regards, Rick

#69 6 years ago

Hi Rick
great - You solved a problem. You write about loosening the wingnuts - and the pin behaves. You either have the wingnuts loosened AND You make a good documentation - put the documentation in the pin -and You write something like "ATTENTION - wingnuts loosened - whoever wants to take the pin apart and move it to another place: be careful." - You either make such an documentation or You come back to the unit and the wingnuts after You have fixed all other problems.

In post-9 You show the list of relays --- what is Your so called "Reset-Bank in the Backbox" - the Control-Bank with maybe an problematic S-Start-Relay ? --- or the Sequence-Bank with maybe an problematic DB-Reset-Relay ?

Thanks for the link to the daina-Start-up description "Flying Carpet 1972" - I read it but I do not see a mentioned AS-Relay ... "post-57 - the S-Relay should be followed by the AS-Relay", hmm.

Sometimes the pin kicks out the Ball - look at Your JPG in post-57 - the Ball-Return-Kicker operates through "Switch on pulling O-Relay" as the motor runs and actuates motor-switch-4B. Greetings Rolf

#70 6 years ago

Hi Rolf
apologies for my incorrect post - indeed there is no AS relay - I posted from memory, always a bad idea, and you were right to pull me up on it. I meant to say "no SB relay" so it is hard to know how much I can rely on that generic list - especially as you say Gottleib had a habit of using different letters for relays on different machines.

I have enclosed a pic of my relays so if in future I relay dubious information, you can at least check.

Going from memory of my earlier post, the kicker situation is a worry as the kicker works fine, just the score motor is not being told to spin to operate the switch. I think you have mentioned all the possible work arounds already, which makes it sound as though the problem is something obscure - a weak switch, a poor contact - anything! I'll keep digging around in the hope that I get a result - if you have any more "short cut" fly lead tricks to suggest to help, I'd be grateful, but I think you've gone through all of those.

As alway, regards - Rick

PICT0020 (resized).JPGPICT0020 (resized).JPG

#71 6 years ago

Hi Rick
the daina start-up description is quite good - most important: It describes an ONE-Player-Pin.
Thanks for the list of relays --- a good thing to know is (look in the list): The A-Relay has contacts "5C" and the B-Relay has contacts "3A, 1B" --- helpful informations:
(Type) "A" is "Normally-Open Switch(es)
(Type) "B" is Normally-Closed Switch(es)
(Type) "C" is Three-blades Make-and-Brake Switch(es)
IF (if, if) the Outhole-Relay does pull-in and stays pulling for a while BUT the Score-Motor does not run: Look at the JPG --- One or two permanent Jumper-Wire(s) to feed electricity to "Switch on O-Relay" to (feed to) "Score-Motor". For Safety-Rewasons: Please unplug the main Power Cord and PLEASE: Use the good side of the fuse (as we want the fuse in the circuitry) - the good side with "wire-red-white" is soldered-on to the fuse holder.
Then plug-in and start a game - play --- does the Motor runs with the Jumper-Wire(s) ?

IF (if, if) the Outhole-Relay does NOT pull-in: Please write about. Greetings Rolf

0King-of-Diamonds-Work-12 (resized).jpg0King-of-Diamonds-Work-12 (resized).jpg

#72 6 years ago

Hi Rolf
I am going to admit defeat! The machine has reverted to spinning score motor mode so preventing me from trying out your suggestions.

It seems as if, when one problem is solved, another comes to take it's place. And it is unfair to keep asking for your precious time to assist me from afar - it also needs an experienced pair of hands to work on the machine, hands which I certainly don't have!

So, the machine is going to be sold - as non-working - and presumably will be taken up by someone more able than I. A pity, as when it plays, it is a lovely machine.

So, again, thank you for your time, knowledge and assistance - I just wish I could have done you proud at my end. Regards, Rick

#73 6 years ago


I know the feeling, as we all have been there a one point. Just one thing, as the score motor is spinning upon startup, do the score reels reset to zero?

#74 6 years ago

No, they stay as they are and I can't increment them as the relays are obviously not getting power. Thanks for your kind comments!
Rick

#75 6 years ago
Quoted from swtrains:

it is unfair to keep asking for your precious time to assist me from afar - it also needs an experienced pair of hands to work on the machine, hands which I certainly don't have!

Are you otherwise enjoying the process? If not then by all means sell it. But if you are enjoying the conversation and repairs then by all means, stick with it.

#76 6 years ago
Quoted from swtrains:

No, they stay as they are and I can't increment them as the relays are obviously not getting power. Thanks for your kind comments!
Rick

First, with the machine off, manually advance the score reels to show points if not shown already. Then turn on the machine and activate the start relay. Do they reset, does the score motor continually spin?
If they don't reset, try manually activating the 100 point relay while the score motor is spinning. Does this advance the reel back to zero?

#77 6 years ago

Playdium, I know for sure the score reels don't reset when the machine turns on and the score motor spins. However, I can't follow up with your next suggestion as the machine is now fully re-assembled with glass on, prior to sale. I appreciate your attempts to help though.

Howard - good point, well made. I don't think I ever actually enjoy working on pinballs - everything seems designed to be hard to access without back-ache inducing stooping. But when you get a result, none of this seems to matter. Unfortunately, with the KoD, I seemed to be getting all the pain without the pleasure, and so will be pleased to see it go. I really have very little room to work in - even removing the glass is a major operation - and I look enviously at you guys in the States with your larger houses or capacious cellars!

And I feel a little guilty that Rolf performs miracles with little snippets of schematics while I seem to be Mr All-thumbs, making very little progress. I feel sure that, if a seasoned pinball owner had my KoD, it would be up and running in short order. Hence the sale.

Thanks to all Pinsiders though - you've been a great community - and willingly and patiently offered help and advice. It won't be forgotten!

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Staunton, VA
$ 12.00
There are 77 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/king-of-diamonds-start-up-sequence/page/2 and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.