(Topic ID: 320687)

Kickout hole score relay problem

By shado01

1 year ago


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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by paulace
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    Aquarius kickout hole problem (resized).jpg
    Aquarius score motor (resized).png
    Aquarius 100 pt scoring (resized).png
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    #1 1 year ago

    I am restoring a Gottlieb Aquarius. There are five kickout holes at the top of the game. They are supposed to give you anywhere from 100 to 300 points. The 100 point hole always gives you 100 points. The 200 and 300 point holes sometimes give you the correct number of points but frequently you get 100 or 200 points less than what you should get. I can hear that there are the appropriate number of pulses (2 or 3) going to the score reel and you always get 100 points then sometimes you get the correct number of points and sometimes the score reel rotates forward a bit then "falls back" to the last position. I thought it was a score reel problem but I cleaned them and adjusted the score reels and it did not solve the problem. Also, just to be sure, I hot wired the 10 point score reel coil to the 100 point score reel coil and when I actuate the game's 50 point relay the 100 point score reel work fine and always reflects all five pulses. It appears the problem is with the kickout hole relays, any idea of how they may need adjusted? Cleaning the relay contacts did not solve the problem. My schematic and manual do not show what the individual contacts within the kickout relays actually do.

    DSCF3075 (resized).JPGDSCF3075 (resized).JPGDSCF3094 (resized).JPGDSCF3094 (resized).JPG
    #2 1 year ago

    Your 200 points and 300 points scores would most likely go through the score motor. Since it works sometimes and "tries" to work other times you may just have too much gap in these score motor switches. Find and clean and properly gap these associated motor switches. You should be able to find them on the schematic on a "score motor switch position" card if it has one attached.

    #3 1 year ago

    This might help you find the switches edednedy just mentioned:

    There are a bunch of switches that have to be working correctly for that particular scoring feature to work. The L relay (100 pt relay) fires each time the score motor runs and the P relay fires:

    Aquarius 100 pt scoring (resized).pngAquarius 100 pt scoring (resized).png

    The score motor runs and the P relay fires 1, 2 or 3 times each time you get a ball in one of the kickout holes (they fire relays B, C, D, E and F). B for example is the first kickout hole on the left that should give you 100 pts. So in the snippet below, when the ball lands in the hole, the B relay fires, closing the B switches and starting the score motor. The Motor 1A switch in the lower right gives you 5 pulses, only one of which makes it through to the P relay (through DB2, Motor 2C [which only allows the 2nd pulse through], B, coil #1 and P). You said that you're always getting 100 pts, so I'm going to assume those switches are working.

    Let's look at the path used when you land in the right-most kickout hole. The ball lands in the hole, fires the F relay which closes all the F switches and starts the score motor. If you look at the highlighted F switches, you'll see there are now 3 paths to the P relay involving an F switch: through Motor 2C, through Motor 3B and through Motor 1B. So the 2nd, 3rd and 4th pulses from Motor 1A get through to the P relay. If you could identify which pulses are not getting through and firing the 100 pt score reel, that might help you narrow down which switch isn't working - the Motor 2C switch allows the 2nd (of 5) pulses to get through, the Motor 3B switch allows the 3rd pulse to get through and the Motor 1B switch allows the 4th pulse to get through. (see the Motor Timing Chart)

    Aquarius kickout hole problem (resized).jpgAquarius kickout hole problem (resized).jpg

    I'd probably focus on Motor 3B and Motor 1B in the snippet above since they're involved in giving 200 or 300 pts. But there are switches on the C, D, E and F relays that are involved as well. Use the wire colors on the schematic to indentify the particular switch you're looking for.

    Aquarius score motor (resized).pngAquarius score motor (resized).png

    #4 1 year ago

    Thanks for the inputs, I will check it out after work. Quick additional question, the other problem I have is the game resets and plays fine (other than the scoring problem mentioned above) when I have 5 ball play set. When I have 3 ball play set the hundreds score reel continually rotates when I start a new game, the other score reels reset fine. Could these be related problems? Does this point me in a more specific location on the schematic or are these apples and oranges?

    #5 1 year ago

    You had recommended checking RED-YEL and SL-GR wires on DB2

    #6 1 year ago

    I don't have an idea about what's causing that 3-5 ball problem - but I'd think it's a separate issue. See if you can fix that kickout hole problem first.

    #7 1 year ago

    I cleaned and adjusted the gaps on the L relay (100 point score relay), the Sequence Series Relay (Relay P), the Hole Relays (Relays B through G) and DB2. I also cleaned and checked and cleaned the score motor 1B, 2C and 3B switches. I get the correct score inputs (100 thru 300 points) about 80% of the time when the ball enters the kickout holes. I'll assume that may just be the best I can get based on the age of the switches and springs.

    I still have the start problem where the game starts fine with 5 ball selected but the hundreds score reel endlessly rotates when I start the game with 3 ball play selected. Any ideas?

    #8 1 year ago

    I read your post regarding the scoring for Aquarius. I see that timing plays a part in the scoring, activating and deactivating the 10 and 100 point relays. I had to replace the score motor brake on this game. I was just guessing at the length and thickness of the blade I used. If my replacement blade is too long or too thick or not thick enough could that be effecting the pulse sent to the score motor, causing the occasional missed scoring (only getting 200 instead of 300 points)?

    #9 1 year ago

    I wouldn't think so. Having the wrong brake leaf in there might change the speed of the motor (though probably not), but it wouldn't change the relative timing of the switches opening and closing.

    But since switch timing is such an important part of this design, the gap in the motor switches that are involved in that kickout hole scoring (Motor 1B, 2C and 3B) could matter. If a switch gap is too wide, the amount of time the switch is closed might be too short and you might not be getting enough of a Motor 1A pulse through it. Those switch closures have to coincide with and overlap the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Motor 1A pulses.

    I have a Quick Draw that had some similar issues with bonus scoring, and what it took was very small adjustments on some of the motor switches to make it work correctly. Ed Krinsky was getting alot of action out of that motor which is great - with the possible downside of it becoming more and more sensitive to switch timing.

    I'd experiment - if you can hear which of the 5 Motor 1A pulses isn't getting through when your scoring doesn't work right, that might tell you which switch isn't allowing the pulse through. Otherwise, you can try making the gap a little smaller, probably one switch at a time, and see if that fixes the problem.

    I still don't have any ideas about your 3-5 ball problem...sorry. I don't see anything on the schematic that would explain it - so you could just be getting some random short, which would be hard to find.

    #10 1 year ago

    That makes sense, I'll try adjusting the gaps, right now the scoring is about 90% correct. Thanks!

    #11 1 year ago

    You were right about the short, not surprisingly it was located at the adjustable lug used to select 3 vs. 5 ball.

    #12 1 year ago

    Great find! So you're almost 100 percent now....play with those motor switches a bit - I bet you'll get it completely right.

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