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(Topic ID: 264293)

Key West Magic Square Motor


By keywest

1 year ago

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  • 28 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 months ago by keywest
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    #1 1 year ago

    Hello all -

    A few weeks ago we purchased a Key West machine that had been refurbished at some point in the not too distant past. Worked great for a while but then the magic squares/turning corners stopped working. I've watched the Richard Girlitz videos and gone through all of the switches, etc. This appears to be an earlier machine where the motor would run continuously and the squares would rotate when the ABCD buttons are pushed on the front sill (The relays for these buttons are working). Also, my multi-meter shows 117 volts at the motor leads so it is getting the juice it needs...

    It appears I need a new magic squares motor or some type of voodoo to fix the existing one? Might anyone have an idea for a fix or a lead on a Key West magic squares motor?

    Thanks!

    #2 1 year ago

    Joe Shope in Utah. Just email him and he will let you know if he has the part.
    It may not be the motor; sometimes the gearing is jammed up.
    http://www.ballybingo.co.uk/index1.html

    #3 1 year ago

    Thanks for the lead - I've fired off an email to Joe. I hear/feel no humming of the motor like I would expect to if the gearing was jammed up - but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised when I tear it down further.

    #4 1 year ago

    I believe this is a Pic of my 'Magic Squares" assy...... not sure.
    Anyway....... to work on it, I think it has to be in a horizontal position.
    I forgot you didn't get the lock opened yet!
    IMG_2288 (resized).JPG
    OOOPS........ I thought you were Mark working on his "Miss Universe...
    I assume you have the key for the Backglass.

    #5 1 year ago

    When I refurb squares units, it usually takes a couple of tries to get everything lined up exactly so. The amount of pressure put on by the retaining screw and compression spring seem to matter a bunch. Also, I always clean the slip rings and wipers and ensure the wipers are not too tight.

    Like I said, I never get it exactly right on the first try. Keep fooling with it and you'll get it.

    #6 1 year ago

    Right.......... from my experience they work ok, then they don't. Any bit of binding of the gears
    will result in poor rotation.
    I don't know how they kept them working in the field.
    Maybe mike knows the secret...........

    #7 1 year ago

    Once they are rebuilt they seem to be rock solid reliable, but it just takes some fiddling to get them "just so". Sounds like you and I share the same affliction!

    1 week later
    #8 1 year ago

    Sorry for the late response - but after rebuilding the unit with the used motor I received from Joe in Utah all is well. The old motor had wooden shims and looked like there had been a struggle to make it play nice with all of the gearing in the unit. I installed the replacement, lightly oiled the clutches, cleaned things up and after some break in time it's working well

    #9 1 year ago

    Ok..............Now we need some Pics....
    I haven't played my 'Key West' in a while, but I have a Pic.....

    IMG_2648 (resized).JPG
    #10 1 year ago

    So here are some photos and a question

    I see on your photo that you were spotted the #2... My machine never spots #2 - only #18. I have found the cam switch that handles the "proportioning circuit" for spotting the 2 & 18 in the manual and on the diagram - but it shows the normal switch position as "Alt" for Cam Switch 9B (D-29 on the schematic).

    Do you have any idea what an "Alt" switch position is supposed to look like? I'm sure I can figure it out - but curious if others have dealt with these. "Alt" isn't even shown as an option in the Code index for switches - but there it is in the manual 9A-9XC Cam Switches at bottom of page 139??

    Thanks

    IMG-2950 (resized).jpgIMG-2954 (resized).jpgIMG-2956 (resized).jpg
    #11 1 year ago

    Nice 5 in a row on your machine by the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    #12 1 year ago

    Alt stands for alternating - based on the cam and position on the cam, that switch can be in one of two positions (open or closed).

    #13 1 year ago

    Thanks - I'll try to get my nose in there later today and take a look. Something's keeping the Alt from Alternating!

    #14 1 year ago
    Quoted from keywest:

    ... My machine never spots #2 - only #18. I have found the cam switch that handles the "proportioning circuit" for spotting the 2 & 18 in the manual and on the diagram - but it shows the normal switch position as "Alt" for Cam Switch 9B (D-29 on the schematic).
    Do you have any idea what an "Alt" switch position is supposed to look like? I'm sure I can figure it out - but curious if others have dealt with these. "Alt" isn't even shown as an option in the Code index for switches - but there it is in the manual 9A-9XC Cam Switches at bottom of page 139??
    [quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

    the CU cams on almost all the games spin 180 degrees per cycle. The alternator cam switches are lifted one cycle, down the next. There isn't really a "normally", but the switches will be drawn consistently. However they are drawn on the schem, they all flip state on the next cycle.

    some games like key west have two alt cams ... e.g. cam 9 and 9x. The cam lobes are opposite, so when stack 9 is up, 9x is down.

    for key west 9B, it means every other cycle you can't trip the "2 or 18" trip relay thru the wire 91-6 path. You still have a 1/3 chance of tripping thru the mixer #3 path (wire 90 to 23-5), and that's frequent enough to imply your problem is above wire 90 or below wire 23-5 on the schem.

    below is the timing diagram for key west. The CU cams lock at the blue line positions - which is relevant for 16 pulse cam fed circuits. You sometimes care what the alternator switch state is when the CU 7 and 8 stacks operate as those may be pulsing the score stepping and features circuits.

    timing-key_west-timer_replay (resized).png
    #15 1 year ago

    Thanks Baldtwit -

    I spent a couple hours aligning and freshening up the point contacts on Control Unit 9B cam switch and the S.P.D.T. for the trip relays L3 & L4 on the Trip Relay bank for the #2 or #18 Spot Trip Coil but still only get an 18 spotted. Looked for loose/broken wires in these areas too but no luck.

    To be clear - I NEVER get the 2 spotted. When you mention the issue could be above wire 90 on the schematic does that include an issue up in the magic squares feature unit, spotting disk, etc. ( I see there are wipers up there that work with the mixer to spot 2 & 18... Maybe a broken wire on those connections or?)

    Sorry - really reaching here ... will take another look in a few days after returning from a camping adventure.

    Thanks Again!

    #16 1 year ago
    Quoted from keywest:

    Thanks Baldtwit -
    When you mention the issue could be above wire 90 on the schematic does that include an issue up in the magic squares feature unit, spotting disk, etc. ( I see there are wipers up there that work with the mixer to spot 2 & 18... Maybe a broken wire on those connections or?)

    the only thing above wire 90 would be a couple wipers on the magic squares feature unit (MSFU). Stuff at/above wire 25-6 is ok because the magic squares feature unit is stepping.

    below is the circuit. Since the magic square feature unit IS stepping, the circuit in green is ok. That leaves the path in red (and the messier way the red path could go thru the alt 9B switch) as not working.

    keep in mind how the whole things works. The game will spot one of the two numbers when the magic square feature unit is at step 7 and higher. If the 2 or 18 trip relay is untripped, then 18 is spotted. If the 2/18 trip relay is tripped, then 2 is spotted.

    your symptom is the 2/18 trip relay is never tripping, and checking the diagram for the MSFU in the manual, the only time wire 25-6 is connected to 90 is when the MSFU is at step 6. The game decides which number will be spotted on the step before the MSFU enables spotting.

    probably the simplest way to find the problem is a jumper wire. Stick one end on wire 30 on the transformer ... that's the fat yellow wire that loops from an upper lug 10 to a lower lug 9 then off to the game (see pic below). Put the other end on wire 23-5 on mixer #3. The 2/18 relay should trip. If it doesn't, then either the coil is bad or more likely switch L2 needs clean/adjust (manual page 144).

    if the 2/18 does trip, manually reset it an move the jumper from 23-5 to 90 on mixer #3. Turn the mixer 3 rotor backwards a few positions by pushing up/around the mixer rotor ... making sure the wipers aren't snagging rivet edges ... and the 2/18 should trip.

    if that works, the problem is the wire 90 to wire 25-6 connection on the magic squares feature unit disc.

    since it's probably hard to tell wire colors on mixer 3, below is the mixer 3 diagram from:
    http://bingo.cdyn.com/machines/bally/key_west/resources/mixer-key_west-mixer_3.png

    just count the wire lugs from the notch on top of the contact plate to find wires 90 and 23-5.

    if you didn't have the mixer diagram and can't tell wire colors, an alternative to test if most of the circuit works is to jumper wire 90 to wire 25-6 on the magic square features unit - which there is a diagram in the manual for. That will make it way more likely to trip the 2/18 trip relay any time the magic squares feature unit is stepping. If no 2/18 trip, you know the problem is below wire 90.

    make sense?

    kw2 (resized).jpgint-key_west-transformer (resized).jpgmixer-key_west-mixer_3 (resized).png
    #17 1 year ago

    THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK THANK YOU!

    Your clarification on switch L2 on the #2 or #18 Spot Trip Coil did the trick. I was focused on L3 and L4 in that switch bank and missed the micro separation in what should be a normally closed L2. Did some buffing and bending and it now works! If I live to be 120 and dedicate my life to these machines I might understand the schematics like you do!

    Thanks again

    #18 1 year ago

    It takes a few years to learn your way around.
    Its nice to have "Good Help" along the way!

    1 week later
    #19 11 months ago

    Thanks again & again and again for all the help gang... New question for you - what are the thoughts on lubricating the Mixer motor, etc? What kind of oil is appropriate? There's no dip stick - so how do you know how much to put in?

    Also - please see the picture of my mixer motor... do you add oil through the big Phillips screw on the housing - or drip it in through the two tubes? They are nearly horizontal and does not look like they lead into much of an oil pan kind of a thing?

    Thanks!

    Mixer Motor (resized).jpg
    #20 11 months ago

    This is mentioned under "regular maintenance" on the Bingo website.
    of their old motor parts to them.

    A talk at pinball expo in 2008 by mark patzke, the president of multiproducts, produced the following:
    • for gearboxes, use magnalube (a synthetic grease)
    • for the sleeve bearings (the brass oil tubes), use 3-in-1 motor oil (blue can...not the red can!) or other teflon impregnated oil ..............................................................
    ***************************

    #21 11 months ago

    I use the "blue" top 3-in-one oil for my "tubes".
    I use synthetic 75-90 gear lube oil for the gears.
    I figure if the 75-90 is good enough for the
    rear end gears of my car, it should work great in my
    bingo motors.
    see below!
    Terry K

    My car June 2017 MDP (resized).jpg
    #22 11 months ago

    Good stuff . Thanks for the assist all...

    #23 11 months ago

    if using a liquid, go for the thickest stuff you can get or add a thickening agent. Don't put in a lot ... you want the oil to be below the shaft level to minimize how much weeps out ... and it almost always does.

    there's a few styles of the multiproducts gearbox. Some of them have both gear shafts going all the way through the casing. The main shaft pokes out one side, and the small internal shaft pokes out flush on the bracket side. There is a rubber seal on the main shaft that won't work well anymore, and nothing on the other shaft to prevent seepage.

    I've seen people try and cover the small shaft hole. I certainly helps, and if you use something like a thick piece of rubber it'll compress between the gearbox and bracket and seal the hole pretty well ... if the motor isn't one that mounts to grommets so there's a gap between motor and bracket.

    the operators that used gear oils often made metal drip pans they mounted under the mixer motor. They mostly let the oil leak onto the metal shelf on the head, and every 20 years or so mopped a little of it up

    on the plus side, liquid in the gearbox can reduce gear noise a little.

    I've opened NOS gearboxes. There's not a lot of grease in there. You especially do not want thick grease packed between the gear faces, that'll bog down the motor. You just just want grease on the teeth and a little at the bottom.

    'course, the motors had a 30 day warranty, so peanut butter would probably last that long.

    #24 11 months ago
    Quoted from baldtwit:

    peanut butter would probably last that long.

    I know what I'm trying next time...

    #25 11 months ago

    Awesome stuff

    So now that our machine is getting played more than it has in quite a while it pops up with a new ailment every couple weeks.

    Yesterday it started awarding what I'll call "delayed features."

    99% of the time the feature/s are awarded within a couple seconds if not instantly after putting in your nickle. But then...

    During one game I played yesterday after playing the first ball the arrow on the left pointing at the magic squares advanced by one arrow probably 10 seconds after I put in my last nickle. When I played the next ball the machine awarded the ABC magic squares feature probably 30 seconds after I deposited my last nickle. Magic squares and everything else work properly outside of the delayed feature reward. My wife mentioned this also happened to her as well. Very intermittent and would love to think it will just stop doing it but that's probably wishful thinking.

    Is one of the cams likely slipping somewhere and delaying its movement of the switch that rewards the magic squares?

    Thanks

    #26 11 months ago
    WRY (resized).jpg
    #27 11 months ago
    Quoted from keywest:

    When I played the next ball the machine awarded the ABC magic squares feature probably 30 seconds after I deposited my last nickle.

    Dirty spotting disc would cause this, dirty slip rings, or another dirty switch in the path to award. If you'd like to isolate the problem you'll need to observe if this only happens on magic squares, and then if only on ABC. Problem with dirt is it is going to be intermittent. It won't happen every time.

    If you look at your spotting disc and see a bunch of black dirt tracks, it's probably time to clean it. Cleaning can be a challenge, but you need to remove or partially remove the wiper arms on the rotating part of the disc.

    #28 11 months ago

    Thanks - I'll try to keep track of when we get the delayed feature issue and if it persists I'll start tracking it down.

    I guess the warranty reverted to 30 days if you used peanut butter lube? Six months was a pretty decent warranty as I'm guessing these things got soaked in beer and were played a ton at the bars back in the day.

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