(Topic ID: 28334)

Keith P. Johnson vs. Lyman F. Sheats Jr.

By Propaganda

11 years ago


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  • 152 posts
  • 73 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 years ago by Pinchroma
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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    Topic poll

    “Who is the better game programmer?”

    • Keith P. Johnson 78 votes
      35%
    • Lyman F. Sheats Jr. 145 votes
      65%

    (223 votes)

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    There are 152 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 4.
    #101 11 years ago
    Quoted from badbilly27:

    Thanks for the giggle. When I saw that pic I can now see how someone could pull a muscle playing pinball.
    Btw...what is weirder? Lyman's stance or someone taking a picture of Lyman from behind? Totally teasing.

    I had 5 hours of nothing to do as the Exhibit hall was closed and my wife left me to go visit her family in Aurora 50 minutes away and I only had 5 dollars so I could not even get into the buffet dinner so I sit in the hall way. Anything to kill some some time, I just looked at the sheet wrong on the hours. I did enjoy meeting Celiac502 and friend and Ben and Lundy from NC. I just had to move away from Atari Herecules pin playing but thats another story. I didnt get closeups of his ass but should have got an autograph

    #102 11 years ago
    Quoted from Propaganda:

    Same here, so don't ask me.

    So if I understand correctly you asked a question that we cannot answer to include yourself?

    #103 11 years ago
    Quoted from absocountry2:

    So if I understand correctly

    I claim ignorance. Most, seem to change the question to one they can answer.

    #104 11 years ago
    Quoted from jimjim66:

    Far as I know, every game has inserts so ALL games have a variation of what you just described.

    but they arn't set up for shoot this 3 times..and shoot that 3 times, to do everything the game has to offer. Only the bland games do that. When you have modes and different phases, to mix things up, that's what's fun. Different objectives that chance depending on where your at. Plus a unique playfield. Not a standard fan pattern game. it's fine to have one game like that, but who the hell wants 7 or 8 games designed the same with 12% different variation in rules from the other ones.

    #105 11 years ago
    Quoted from Propaganda:

    I claim ignorance. Most, seem to change the question to one they can answer.

    It's just a silly question. I am qualified to answer, but I can't without seeing lots and lots of their code, and spending a few hours interviewing them, it's worthless.

    #106 11 years ago

    I personally didn't know which games either of these guys programmed (didn't really care to be honest). Having said that, I prefer Lyman's rule sets. The games I've played of his just seem to be all around more fun.

    #107 11 years ago
    Quoted from Propaganda:

    Who is the better game programmer?

    Call their bosses and ask for their performance reviews if you don't like responses based on playing their games. Are you looking to hire one of them or something?

    #108 11 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    but they arn't set up for shoot this 3 times..and shoot that 3 times, to do everything the game has to offer. Only the bland games do that. When you have modes and different phases, to mix things up, that's what's fun. Different objectives that chance depending on where your at. Plus a unique playfield. Not a standard fan pattern game. it's fine to have one game like that, but who the hell wants 7 or 8 games designed the same with 12% different variation in rules from the other ones.

    Yeah...no. You are over-simplifying the rulesets of MB. In fact, the only thing which is "Shoot this 3 times and that 3 times" is the ramps for Bride. Mummy is jet hits with rollover multipliers, Drac is spelling with targets, Wolfman and Creech are 4 shots each to start but Creech is many more shots to complete, etc. Most importantly, the modes aren't designed to work alone, they are designed to STACK. It's clear Lyman had that in mind when tweaking the rules. So if you are playing like this "Oh, I just shoot that 3 times and then I shoot it again 3 times" you are dumbing the game down yourself and it's no wonder it bores you.

    In MB, the beauty of the game is stacking the monsters all together so they are running at the same time. A simple-sounding goal, but it's far from easy...in fact, it's incredibly difficult. There's an order to how you have to hit the shots, extend timers, and stay away from certain shots, in order to accomplish that goal. Probably the most difficult stack in modern pinball, FAR more difficult than stacking all the madnesses together in MM, which isn't easy itself and is very lucrative. (Side note: Lyman absolutely dropped the ball on one rule/scoring feature= Rock Before Bash. It's mildly difficult to acheive RBB and yet since a regular Bash multi will score you more than 50M on average, RBB is a reward which is basically a penalty. It should award 100M and it would make sense).

    After realizing that you don't understand the MB rules, it's not surprising that all those rulesets meld together for you. They are all quite different if you dig into them. It's like people who play MM and go "Oh you just sit there and shoot the castle...so boring!" And you want to laugh in their face: "Yeah it's boring because you are playing 1/10 of the game."

    Learn the rules, challenge yourself, and all rulesets will cease to seem so similar for you.

    #109 11 years ago

    The poll will probably skewed a bit toward Lyman simply based on the larger selection of games/themes he's worked on.

    To the OP, some of the criteria you want the poll based on is tough. Bugs are probably more relevant to deadlines and QA than related to the software guy. However in a similar vein, one who works on their code until a ruleset is truly complete in depth and breadth has to get extra props and is probably what sets these two apart from the rest.

    #110 11 years ago
    Quoted from Duff:

    So it comes down to TSPP vs. SM. For me, it's TSPP all day and every day.

    TSPP is already a classic in my book. I'm glad I got it when I did, and it's never going away.

    #111 11 years ago

    We all have our different ratings of games but if you look at the pinside top 20 Lyman has a 5-2 edge.

    Both are great programmers but I tend to prefer Lyman's style a little more.

    #112 11 years ago

    My 3 favorite games of all time are

    TSPP
    FGY
    LOTR

    So its KPJ for me but of course my opinion is biased (as is yours).

    I do think Lyman is getting the votes today via proud new ACDC owners but I could be wrong... maybe its Maverick? Either way I'm glad they both write code.

    #113 11 years ago
    Quoted from PW79:

    My 3 favorite games of all time are
    TSPP
    FGY
    LOTR
    So its KPJ for me but of course my opinion is biased (as is yours).
    I do think Lyman is getting the votes today via proud new ACDC owners but I could be wrong... maybe its Maverick? Either way I'm glad they both write code.

    Lol yep it's gotta be Maverick. Forget those other 3 turds in the top 4. (:

    #114 11 years ago

    I have to say the Attack From Mars is one of the greatest masterpieces in terms of game design and programming.

    Because it is still a great mystery to me, why da heck that game is so popular, highly praised and expensive. For the playfield you get nothing. Nothing. Two ramps and a big device in the middle, that is not really interacting with the ball other than what you ordinary standup targets does.

    Also the playfield is odd in the way that the things to shoot for, ramp entrances etc. is mounted so far up the playfield, that the game has perhaps the biggest open space of any DMD-era game. How can this game be so difficult to play with brutal hungry outlanes.

    The appeal of the game is a triumph for game design the way I see it. And added to this it doesn't hurt to have some of the best and most effetive sound/DMD effects ever.

    When it comes to pingame programming Larry Demar is the man.

    #115 11 years ago
    Quoted from PW79:

    My 3 favorite games of all time are
    TSPP
    FGY
    LOTR
    So its KPJ for me but of course my opinion is biased (as is yours).
    I do think Lyman is getting the votes today via proud new ACDC owners but I could be wrong... maybe its Maverick? Either way I'm glad they both write code.

    This is why there is no right and wrong in this thread. Everyone has their own taste in pinball machines. To me TSPP and FG are not even in the top ten Sterns let alone the top ten all time. I do like LoTR, but not that much. I had one and sold it and don't miss it nearly as much as I miss other games that I sold.

    Too each his own. That is what makes pinball so great. Not only are there a variety of themes and playfield designers, there is also a variety of programming styles.

    3 months later
    #116 11 years ago

    Keith will have his latest skills on display soon.

    #117 11 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    Let's see if 10 years later ACDC will be as respected as much as TSPP is today.

    Didn't know TSPP was respected? Never a game on my want list.

    #118 11 years ago

    <Lifts up rock> Oh, hi WOZ225!

    #119 11 years ago

    Gotta give Keith kudos for LOTR. but Lyman is the best pin programmer ever. Arguably the two best games of all time are Lyman's (MM AFM) Spider-Man, tron and ACDC is a masterpiece. If the guy isn't completely happy with the rule sets he took machines home and spent 100s of hours making them great on his own dime.

    #120 11 years ago

    To be fair, Keith also completed games on his own time, often working on them years after the fact, but with how Stern works that's something pretty much all of their programmers have to do to make a quality product - but obviously, something they SHOULDN'T have to do. With that said, I wish Lyman would finish BDK.

    Also, a warning for those reading this thread: it's 3 months old and was just brought up again a few posts ago.

    #121 11 years ago

    both of them are great programmers. Regardless. I love my LOTR's, but I also love my Tommy. what's fantastic in general, is that pinball companies have different designers/programmers. Which is great, or we would get too much of games feeling and playing the same. Some designers are better at doing diversity, and some arn't. I'm just glad we have many years of variety from a vast group of great designers and programmers. So there is a little something for everyone.

    #122 11 years ago

    My small collection is currently LOTR, TSPP, and my favorite...WPT. THLE is coming too, someday.

    Recently sold SM and AFM.

    I am a big KJ fan.

    Lyman is great too but Keith's rules / programming seem to jive with me better. Half the time with Lyman I am "foggily" trying to figure out what to do next and wondering "what did I just do?"

    I can figure Keith's games out better and things are clearer to me and more enjoyable.

    Glad we have both of them.

    #123 11 years ago

    Two of the best IMO. But for my tastes I,would go with Lyman he is a master of his craft and seems to only be getting better. I prefer games that have attainable Wizard modes once or twice a year for none elite players. Sometimes Mr. Johnson makes modes that almost no player unless cheating will ever see that just does not make sense to me. But as I said before two of the greats arguments will be valid for both sides of this debate.

    #124 11 years ago
    Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

    Sometimes Mr. Johnson makes modes that almost no player unless cheating will ever see that just does not make sense to me

    Keeps me coming back on Lotr all the time......

    Both great, its like two great coaches with different styles of winning

    For me its Keith....LOTR.....Since I have SM the rules don't compare for what I like, just me...

    Let's see what Woz does for Keith...

    #125 11 years ago

    http://www.ifpapinball.com/jan2013movers

    Never realized Sheats is number 22 player in world - he plays as well as he codes, well, he codes better actually!

    #126 11 years ago

    I'm just grateful we have both. Not everything has to be an either/or.

    #127 11 years ago
    Quoted from Shapeshifter:

    http://www.ifpapinball.com/jan2013movers
    Never realized Sheats is number 22 player in world - he plays as well as he codes, well, he codes better actually!

    He was number one in the world a while ago -

    #128 11 years ago
    Quoted from chessiv:

    He was number one in the world a while ago -

    I hate that video simply for how douchey gumble is. Rushing through everything and acting generally disinterested.

    #129 11 years ago

    Both designers are great and I enjoy both. Keith has done more of my favorite machines so have to go with him. I am glad their coding and styles are so differnt. Kind of like comparing coke vs pepsi, and we all know which of those is better.

    #130 11 years ago
    Quoted from Breadfan:

    Didn't know TSPP was respected? Never a game on my want list.

    Are you kidding? It's Stern's biggest seller w/ a great design, great theme, and the deepest rules ever. A few elite members of the "flow police" rip on it occasionally...but the numbers speak for themselves. It's a great game that has almost everything you could ever want in a pinball machine.

    #131 11 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    It's a great game that has almost everything you could ever want in a pinball machine.

    Yeah, but I know you'll agree with me when I say that FG is better.

    #132 11 years ago
    Quoted from Honch:

    Yeah, but I know you'll agree with me when I say that FG is better.

    In some ways, yes. I think they both absolutely accomplish what they set out to do with a perfect melding of physical design & coded rules.

    FGY wins in some areas such as just being on the SAM platform - better quality audio and a more Williams-ish "feel".

    While I personally like FGY better, they're both so good, I wouldn't begrudge someone for liking TSPP more. Both amazingly high quality games with great design and rules.

    #133 11 years ago

    Lonnie Ropp. Seriously, if you like playing a challenging multiball, his rules are great.

    #134 11 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    In some ways, yes. I think they both absolutely accomplish what they set out to do with a perfect melding of physical design & coded rules.

    For me, it's much simpler than that. FG is straight up fun and TSPP is almost like a chore to play. Maybe if I owned one, I would feel differently.

    #135 11 years ago
    Quoted from Honch:

    For me, it's much simpler than that. FG is straight up fun and TSPP is almost like a chore to play. Maybe if I owned one, I would feel differently.

    I think they're both fun. It IS hard to make a deep game NOT feel like a chore, and that's where Keith shined on LOTR and TSPP. Sure there's a lot to do, but TSPP always feels energetic and lively, there's always cool new stuff happening and all of it (IMO) is really fun. I love every mode, multiball, mini-goal, etc. You should own one! Seriously, the game frustrated and annoyed me until I bought one. Then I "got" it...and then it was a keeper!

    #136 11 years ago

    It's not on my shortlist, but thanks for the insight.

    #137 11 years ago
    Quoted from Honch:

    It's not on my shortlist, but thanks for the insight.

    It's common enough that you'll be able to get one when you finally come around

    #138 11 years ago

    Both are great programmers. Hard to pick a favorite.

    #139 11 years ago
    Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

    Two of the best IMO. But for my tastes I,would go with Lyman he is a master of his craft and seems to only be getting better. I prefer games that have attainable Wizard modes once or twice a year for none elite players. Sometimes Mr. Johnson makes modes that almost no player unless cheating will ever see that just does not make sense to me. But as I said before two of the greats arguments will be valid for both sides of this debate.

    The beauty of Keith's games are just that though - he has a lot of attainable mini wizards that are just as hard or harder than regular pins wizards, and they all stack up to a biggie. This gives everyone what they want. The only downfall (and I say this from a marketing aspect to all levels of players) would be with TSPP, where the MB is not easily attainable as with most machines.

    I have done valinor, and there was no other pinball accomplishment like it when I was there. I was scratchy's revenge and AI (usually the easiest one) away from he super mega whatever in TSPP as well, and whether I ever get to do this, or do it and try to do it again, it gives you extra levels of play out of your machine.

    There is no better between the two, and if it were only one style over the other for the norm, that would be boring. Keith changed the game though with LOTR and TSPP as far as rules - they were pinball's "third eye".

    -1
    #140 11 years ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    Lonnie Ropp. Seriously, if you like playing a challenging multiball, his rules are great.

    Now that is funny!!! Oh wait you were being serious???

    #141 11 years ago
    Quoted from chessiv:

    He was number one in the world a while ago - » YouTube video

    that's a great video. Seen that one awhile ago. It's funny that he designed the software for Tommy, and it's on there. Don't think he even caught that he designed the software.

    Lymans been #1 many times. I think he's a 5 time world champion.

    #142 11 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    Let's see if 10 years later ACDC will be as respected as much as TSPP is today.

    As an AC/DC owner, I take this comment as a cheap jab.
    It's no big deal, but I expect you understood that when you wrote it.
    If that is the case, you shouldn't be surprised when someone like Rob replies with a simple rolling of his eyes.
    In order to avoid these stupid confrontations (the "threat" you made to him earlier -call it what you want), wouldn't it have been easier to either accept his comment, or not to take aim at AC/DC in the first place?
    Your collection of pins is impressive, but it's not my taste. I don't expect that will reduce the amount of fun you have playing them though. The truth is, what we think of each others favourite pins doesn't matter in the slightest.
    So with that, wouldn't you agree that Pinside would be a better place if we just posted positive comments instead of cutting up each others collections?
    As I said, I'm not a fan of your pins but that doesn't mean I'm going to bash you for having fun playing them. If that's your style, cool.

    #143 11 years ago

    lets put it this way. How is GNR respected 20 years later? Yea, I think it's doing pretty well for itself.

    #144 11 years ago

    Lonnie is a fine programmer and a great guy. He LOVES pinball. Rolling Stones gets bashed a lot but he did excellent work on that making it challenging and fun. He deserves respect, along with John Borg, for keeping the doors open at Stern after the 2008 layoffs.

    #145 11 years ago
    Quoted from Atomicboy:

    The beauty of Keith's games are just that though

    That's not the beauty of it for me. We all have our own likes and dislikes. I just don't see the point to a mode no one or the vast majority playing straight up will ever see and sometimes his games have a mode or two like that. That is the main reason I enjoy SM more than the two you mentioned is I actually have been able to play the main wizard mode and have a lot of fun doing it. Same goes for TRON and Portal. But as I mentioned before Keith is a great no doubt I just prefer Lyman's style a bit more.

    #146 11 years ago

    Any game that would let *me* play a wizard mode... can't claim it's a wizard mode!

    #147 11 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    Now that is funny!!! Oh wait you were being serious???

    Yes, that's why I said "seriously".

    #148 11 years ago
    Quoted from Chambahz:

    As an AC/DC owner, I take this comment as a cheap jab.

    Because you are overly sensitive and feel threatened.

    The men here are big boys and don't need mister protect his investment telling them what think or say.

    Obvioulsy, you are just bias and supporting a guy (RobT) who also supports AC/DC (your investment). Everyone with half a brain can see though your statements. How stupid do you think people are here?

    Plus all the other poster said was lets see in ten years. What is sooooooooooooo scary about that? Do you think the rock pins will suffer the same fate and decline as Rock Band and Guitar Hero Video games?

    #149 11 years ago
    Quoted from Deaconblooze:

    I hate that video simply for how douchey gumble is. Rushing through everything and acting generally disinterested.

    I agree but also understand that is the nature of TV. Ok, we have 5 minutes to explain EVERYTHING about pinball. Not a well thought out segment. Some of the questions required multiple sentence answers, and TV "ain't got time for that!"

    #150 11 years ago
    Quoted from Propaganda:

    Because you are overly sensitive and feel threatened.
    The men here are big boys and don't need mister protect his investment telling them what think or say.
    Obvioulsy, you are just bias and supporting a guy (RobT) who also supports AC/DC (your investment). Everyone with half a brain can see though your statements. How stupid do you think people are here?
    Plus all the other poster said was lets see in ten years. What is sooooooooooooo scary about that? Do you think the rock pins will suffer the same fate and decline as Rock Band and Guitar Hero Video games?

    I see my message was completely lost on you.

    I'm guessing that Rob and I were both annoyed with the comment is all. Probably most ACDC owners for that matter. As I said, it's not a big deal, but he was "poking the bear", then had the nerve to complain when someone else stepped up. Know what? You shouldn't be poking bears in the first place.
    For the record, neither big boys nor men should need to make things personal.
    This is pinball. Let's keep it fun.

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