Very different programmers IMO. KJ's depth is incredible but I Sheats designed my favorite pjn(AFM).

Ok, this is going to be a gross generalization, but: Keefer = deeper; Sheats = more fun.

The rules on AC/DC are genius.

Sheats also did the rules for several of my other favorite pins, including MM and MB.

Both have amazing talent and both are players themselves which makes for great work. My style of preferred game play is fast, stacking, furious fun. Lyman is the guy that does best for this style. 3 of the 4 top 10 games are Lyman games: MM, MB, AFM. Acdc, spiderman, tron, ironman. Anything Lyman touches is gold. Unfortunately it takes him a few iterations of SW updates to really get the game polished. But it's always finished and always worth the wait.

This gonna be a bloodbath of a poll

How so? Both of them are great, so no bloodbath is called for!

Then where's the "Both" poll option?

wish lyman would help finnish my x-men

Agreed both are great. But if you vote, you Can only choose one. Hence...let the blood bath commence.

Let's see if 10 years later ACDC will be as respected as much as TSPP is today.

Keith - Deep but linear
Lyman - Not so deep but strategic

Lyman gets the edge for me. His programming always gets the intangibles of pinball right.

How can you say that?

TSPP is the most non-linear pinball game ever created.

I expect rolled eyes from you Rob. We all know your biases. You're continually pissed off that not everybody in this community 100% agrees with you.

My biases are with regard to you and your posts.

<Edited by moderator>

_{Post edited by The_Dude_Abides : No name calling was needed here.}

:rolleyes:

Can't we agree to disagree?

Both comments could have went unsaid.

I'm off my soapbox now.

What do these comments have to do with the question?

_{Post edited by ThePostmaster : Take it off line guys}

So this took a nasty turn.

I voted Lyman

I'm stick and tired of people like RobT, who has big honkin' chip on his shoulder because I had the audacity to disagree with him on an issue or two months ago, so now he follows me around like a kindergartener shitting on my comments.

Suffice to say we don't like each other, Rob, but act like a adult and take it up with me directly, personally, instead of this childish passive-aggressive public bs. How about that?

_{Post edited by absocountry2 : Profanity edited}

Same as WPT, there are so many ways to attack the game. His rules aren't linear
in any way imho.

And I voted for Keith but I love Lyman's games as well. As far as programmers I don't think there
is a #1 and #2 but they are more of a 1a and 1b. I have two games of Keith's and three games
that Lyman was involved in and both are tremendous programmers.

They're both so skilled in their own styles it's hard to say. I think if I had to pick, I would say Lyman because it just seems like more slam-bang fun. But Keith's rules are so cerebral it's sick. It's like a sort of high speed chess when the ball is flying around and you have to make decisions while keeping track of everything. I just hope they both keep making games.

+1

For the record, I really like Rob

It makes me happy that I can get him all riled up in another thread then he can come here and take it out on you rather than me

I am again rewarded for putting that dude on ignore. Blissful ignorance.

Keefer and Lyman are obviously both good programmers, in that order, IMO, but what they do with their programming is what makes all the difference. Considering the real estate on a pinball machine playfield is precious and that the game designers and engineers often get the first dibs at what goes there and how (the toys, the ramps, the targets, the lights, the magnet, diverters, vuks, etc., etc), the game programmer is usually left with the dilemma of trying to make the best of a hand that he has been dealt by others. This, of course, may not necessarily be true for every game, but it is a fairly common practice in the pinball world, intentional or not.

On the other hand, if the programmer is actively involved in every step of the the game's creation, and that his suggestions are taken seriously by the rest of the team, he would certainly have much better leverage on the game's ultimate performance. So, when we say that Keefer programs deeper games, we're actually saying that, all other things being equal, he delivers more sales per square foot, if you don't mind the retail real estate anology.

Additionally, coding a game is nothing less than creating abstract intellectual art, concieved, configured, and ultimately coded into the game play by the individual programmer. In that regard, I'd still rather Keefer challenging my wits and game skills than Lyman blinding me with cold led lights flashing around cheap props.

I would give Lyman the edge but Keith is also an amazing programmer.

Well said

For the record, I really like Mark too! We can strongly disagree, but we agree more than we disagree, and even when we do strongly disagree, Mark has never once threatened me by telling me to say it to his face, and I've never done that (and never would) either.

But of course I'm not surprised that "Pinballhelp" would do that. Nope, not surprised at all.

We are done with threats right!?

I do think this thread is an attempt to put Stern v JJP in a way where it seems innocent. Sure to get an fight started. There are some good discussions explaining why each person voted and why. I like pinball, can I get a harumph?!

harumph!

"It is time for us to turn to each other, not on each other" Jesse Jackson

Mature adults don't post passive-aggressive taunts like you do. It adds nothing to the conversation here. I don't know what your personal beef is with me and I don't care, but on behalf of everyone else here, do us a favor and stop it.

No threats were made. You are overreacting. I'm simply suggesting, whatever RobT's beef is with me, if he's a mature person, he can settle it with me directly instead of making childish off-topic posts. Wouldn't you agree that's a reasonable suggestion?

I realized I did not pick one in my earlier post. I actually like them both. They both are great but it is not possible to pick one. Neither could show their programming without a team to design and build a pin first. Everything together with sound is going to change how we feel about each pin.

I know that they are so close that each day I would probably choose a different one to be on top.

How is this not calling a person out? That is a threat. Does not belong in pinball at all.

Not a threat. I know you voted it is. But I disagree and I hope Robin and others can see that I only want to not crap up Pinside with mean-spirited, off-topic personal beefs. I'm simply suggesting we meet up in person and resolve our differences.

Worded that way is much better but that was not they way you wrote it the first time. Remeber Robin wants everybody to be nice.

It sure sounded like a threat to me.

Sorry. I am frustrated. I still don't know what bug is up his ass. But he follows me around posting snarky comments and I'm tired of it. I apologize if I shouldn't have posted in a confrontational manner. But me personally, if I have an issue with somebody, I deal with them directly. I don't drag in a bunch of people who have nothing to do with it.

I've never met this guy before. I've had no dealings with him. Yet he has some kind of weird hatred for me and I'm getting tired of it.

This is the kind of stuff that made RGP a cesspool of mean-spiritness. I'd implore the mods here to not let people use the forum to taunt and attack other people for no reason. Everybody's entitled to their own opinions, and if someone disagrees, they shouldn't use the forum as a personal playground to try and engage in character assassinations. RobT admitted in this thread that was his intention. He doesn't like me. He makes snarky comments that have nothing to do with the topic and are exclusively meant to taunt, all the while, ironically, he calls me the troll.

Me personally, I'd rather settle things directly, but if people are going to sic' the mods on me, then I'll say my peace. I apologize that I even have to do this in public. The whole thing is embarrassing that this guy isn't mature enough to get over whatever his personal thing is.

grow the f up pbh

jayhawkai you always have the best comments.

Once upon a time there was an Aleut Chief who had two wives and they were both constantly nagging him to tell which one of them was his favorite. "I love you both the same," was always the chief's answer, but that hardly satisfied the wives who continued to ask again and again repeatedly, "but which one of us do you love the most?" The old Chief finally secretly gave each of the wives a blue bead, privately instructing each woman that she should tell no one of the gift. After that, whenever either of the wives would ask him, "Which one of us is your favorite wife?" he would answer, "I love best the one to whom I gave the blue bead," and each was satisfied.

"May you have kindness in your heart, a plump woman in your furs, and seal meat in you tummy" - Eskimo Proverb

This thread got sour and whack. Later!

Why was this comment needed? Was this a ACDC vs. TSPP poll? Didnt see anyone say well TSPP is no AFM or MM!!!

I voted Lyman because of his track record. Great games all through is career.

Anyone fancy giving a brief list of what games each of these programmers have done...?

This is for smassa

TSPP is no AFM or MM I will say it.

for the record no threat just joking around.

Lyman's games:

http://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?searchtype=advanced&ppl=Lyman%20F.%20Sheats%20Jr.

Keith's games:

http://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?searchtype=advanced&ppl=Keith%20P.%20Johnson

This isn't very accurate. It shows games these guys worked on as sound guys and just sort of pitched in. I'd call it more like this:

Keith: lotr, Simpsons, csi, Ij4, WoZ

Lyman: MM, MB, AFM, Acdc, Spiderman, tron, bdk, 24, Ironman

Both guys have helped a lot and been part of group projects. But these are the games that stand out as they were leads or did most the SW I believe.

Interesting that Keith has done LotR and CSI... which are almost polor oposites... Thanks for the summary markmon... It helps my in particular becaise I can't access the IPDB from work