No just giving an example of cool bash toys. Think-Tron, X-MEN,etc. the list goes on and on. I get the guys defending Elwin designs(I love them too) just looking to switch things up is all.

Okay now I’m confused. Haha. I like center bash toys, unless they are center bash toys. Haha

But he’s doing just that. All three games have been very different from layouts to rules. Very good variety.

Certain games with bash toys work some do not. Party Zone does not do it for me(as an example). Having a third flipper and cool ramp configurations is great but I need more cowbell.

Party Zone.jpg

blah blah blah keep defending Elwin designs as op, just making some suggestions. Don't get your panties in a bind

That’s totally fine, but you’re not making any sense. Haha

Really simple-Elwin needs to do something else besides having cool ramp configurations and third flipper-they start to feel the same. I can see I am beating a dead horse with fan boys-so I will exit.

I consider Monger to be an actual "bash toy". Sparky is a great illusion of being a bash toy.

I like the use of the balrog too. Reveal a bash toy, don’t always have it out. Monger is lame though. Too close to the flippers.

Sorry had to come back to reply to this nonsense. I have lots of respect for your insight and post but to say Monger is lame?

Monger is flippin awesome! Monger being close is the whole idea with trying to have him not throw your ball and have it drain,etc. A true risk reward shot.

Sorry but Monger is a real bash toy and it is epic!

It’s so easy to simply hit the sides and 100% avoid all the danger. Sorry. It’s lame. Haha

Almost as lame as your Stranger Things LE Demogorgon?

I would say the same amount of lameness. Haha

Certainly is satisfying hitting the ball in the mouth though. Especially when it’s to collect a huge jackpot.

Then how about a bash toy that When hit enough would open up to a 2 way diverter behind that allows the ball to pass through to say a VUK or mini loop or what have you .

Sounds really cool.

Bash toy? I'd have to say the TREX toy is one of the best "cowbell toys" out there.

Anybody can stick a bash toy on a playfield, it's not creative The TREX is.

I was starting to like Stranger things more after I got a couple dozen games in it .Now our camper is closed for 6 months there’s a huge pincade there that I’m going to miss this winter .

That being said I love Elwin games .I have INDN and have played JP looking forward to finding a Avengers to play .

How is a bash toy epic?? Hitting a giant target over and over is boring.

JP Premium/LE has two pretty damn fun bash toys. Raptor pit is the obvious one, but the Control Room can also hold a ball which can be bashed during Invalid Frenzy which is one of my favorite shots in the game.

It’s cool but I don’t know if I would call making the same toy as on the previous JP 25 years ago creative. It’s the lowest hanging fruit.

Same? lol

It’s a TREX that eats a ball. It’s 25 years newer I expect it to be cooler. It’s not creative but it is cool.

Does way more than just eat the ball.

You downvoted me because I think it’s cool? Hahahahaha

Lighten up, I like the mech and it’s well implemented.

Just disagreement. It’s not the same mech and does way more than the 25 year old version.

Such a weird place to share this opinion.

Yep. “Oh cool, a thread with a bunch of Keith Elwin fans. Let me tell them all how much I dislike his games.”

I’d take a closer look. His first three games have some of the best layouts and well thought out rulesets in pinball period.

One reason (I think) the KME games are so popular is that he tries to make fresh layouts that play different that any other game out there. John Borg is a fine designer and does have some amazing games (MET, Tron) but he tends to recycle A LOT of layouts and concepts. He has done the spinning disk magnet multiball start on THREE different games.

Elwin raised the bar with AIQ layout wise. The callouts and animations are a bit generic but man the game shoots so good.

Three flipper bash toy games got me thinking.

What if there was a two way bash toy? You could have it blocking the path of the inner loop or ramp shot from the upper flipper at times, then it could swing out like balrog and block the center shot at other times.

I think that would be a cool use of a bash toy that would breathe new life into an old feature.

Probably what they should’ve done with slimer on ghostbusters although not exactly what you were saying .I like it !

Slimer does this on the Premium/LE. Pro he blocks one shot.

Slimer is a great call and love how he blocks multiple shots in that game.

I'd say all 3 KME games play completely differently, but there are similarities. As AIQ is only developing code, it's hard to compare rule sets right now.

IMdn and JP2 both have 6 way untimed combos, 11 tomb treasures and 11 Fossils, multiple main MBs plus easily accessible mode MB, no VUKs - preferring up-posts to trap the ball.

IMdn is much more of a slog than JP2, especially if you fail to collect a SS from a mode, or LV2 Eddie from a MB. Getting to Cyborg or later modes requires numerous ramp shots - which does feel repetitive.
JP2 is never a slog, there are 3 main aims/wizard modes to progress towards, all of which are somewhat independent.

To me the standout/innovative features from his first 2 games are:
IMdn:
Bullseye 'bash' target with additional reward for accuracy.
The number of different skill shots
JP2:
4 ramps which can be combo'd
TRex Holding and throwing ball

I couldn't get enough of playing IMdn and JP2 the first time I saw them on site, so much so they (along with AIQ) are my only NIB purchases to date.

AIQ:
The Iron Man lock tower is brilliant
The Gauntlet ramp, I cannot think of another major shot, let alone ramp that is accessible from all 3 flippers on any machine.

I think what KME brings to the table when designing a game and rules, is knowing what works, and more importantly doesn't work, in tournament games. There isn't an overriding strategy that allows you to ignore huge parts of the game if you want maximise your score or reach the wizard modes. Hitting the same/safe shot over and over doesn't reward you as much as other games do. Almost every game I can think of when I have watched or played in tournaments the players play the same way and ignore parts of the game.

Any game by any designer is going to have similarities, especially when using the exact same template for the bottom 1/3 of the playfield and the same playfield dimensions. Any game that strays from the standard outlane/inlane (x2), slingshot, flippers, slingshot, inlane outlane, shooter lane generally gets a bad press.

It would be nice to see more variety, perhaps gaining additional playfield area at the bottom by having the ball enter the playfield from the top, or via a 1 way gate on the right outlane. It would change the overall geometry of the game, perhaps freeing up different ideas, or resulting in layouts that don't 'work/flow'? Who knows.
Have a game without inlanes, or even without outlanes! Like so many of the older games.

However, even sticking to the traditional bottom 1/3 layout KMEs 3 games so far feel fresh and very different to what we have seen recently, but more importantly they are fun to play, great in competition, easy to understand the basics for a novice as well as having the depth of strategy to keep better players more engaged at home.

Overall I love KMEs first 3 games, as I do other games from other designers, DP, BM66 & TWD are also favourites.

If you don't like his games, don't play/buy them, but don't try and force your views as to how he should change his designs, there are plenty of people out there who like them just as they are.