(Topic ID: 316134)

Keith Elwin Plunges And Walks Off

By Kingjowjow

1 year ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 435 posts
  • 119 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 27 days ago by VisitorQ
  • Topic is favorited by 12 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    View topic image gallery

    IMG_4161 (resized).jpeg
    2022-08-10 18.19.59 (resized).jpg
    2022-08-10 18.19.57 (resized).jpg
    2022-08-10 18.19.51 (resized).jpg
    2022-08-10 18.19.54 (resized).jpg
    BBF2019B-D156-44CE-95C7-14ACF5EBA296 (resized).jpeg
    05447AE0-DED5-4CA2-98F4-EE53F3649608 (resized).jpeg
    37C6CB9D-76B7-499B-A72D-AEC1D00828E0 (resized).jpeg
    EB6B6FCE-29C3-4452-AB14-E7D8E184C2A5 (resized).jpeg
    418437FD-CB32-4037-B973-7483CAB00B7A (resized).jpeg
    0B92A5A5-C9A9-4923-87A1-160401A5E685 (resized).jpeg
    3F4BEFD3-033E-4A91-B610-20D940FE19BC (resized).jpeg
    77D897F8-3130-4857-BE40-72A24F38E041 (resized).jpeg
    Screenshot_20210520-191240_Instagram (resized).jpg
    flip_meme (resized).jpg
    EAC4D3DE-DA53-44B5-A641-9E493E0E890F (resized).jpeg

    There are 435 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 9.
    #201 1 year ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    No cause I’m usually up. . Jk maybe I don’t give it my all at some local league or smaller event in that situation.
    But I don’t care what the odds are, if I’m in that situation and it’s come back or lose the world title, I’m gonna do my damndest to come back.
    Totally respect Keith’s decision, I was just shocked by it.
    This was an elimination game. It’s the same as if it was the Final Final game imo.

    I get it, and so do you Chuck.

    But you’ve never walked up to a game, and also thought “today, isn’t my day; I’d rather just move on?”

    I know, I know, we always try to do our best, but especially after an entire weekend of playing, sometimes we just say “I have other things to move on to, it’s only pinball!”

    Defeatist attitude? Hardly. Sometimes you just know when to call it quits.

    Again, as a tourney player, this is the LEAST scandalous situation in a pinball minute.

    13
    #202 1 year ago

    You’re making all tournament situations equal. This was for THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. that changes everything imo.

    It was a shocking decision. Plenty of seasoned tournament players agree.

    #203 1 year ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    You’re making all tournament situations equal. This was for THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. that changes everything imo.
    It was a shocking decision. Plenty of seasoned tournament players agree.

    Shocking at the time? Sure. But it doesn't matter, this thread should have never been created but pinside loves drama so I'm not surprised. Does Keith need to prove anything to you or anyone else? I think he's done enough already to prove himself, and after talking to his opponent on Monday he agrees

    -1
    #204 1 year ago
    Quoted from Beyndtstng:

    New theory: There was a betting service advertising on the twitch stream. Maybe Keith had money on Escher and wanted to protect his bet haha.
    .

    I’m going to bet “No Pass” on that. And I’m not a gambler in the usual sense…

    I’m sure KME wanted to make finals.

    I’m sure he wanted to win.

    He can’t win EVERY tournament.

    And then there’s Ray, Eric, Escher, Cayle, and a cadre of others.

    At the end of the day, people are only humans, and that’s what makes watching tournament streams for us mere mortal players exciting.

    Pete Rose bet on his own team to win after all…not against. This is not that, not even close, haha.

    If anything, I hope this literal non scandal issue gets picked up by ESPN as a major story, and then just like that, pinball is shown on Ocho/ESPN2 like “Baaagggggggssss/cornhole” is.

    #205 1 year ago

    I certainly don't think any disrespect was intended, but if I were playing in a tournament and won with one of the players conceding, I'd feel a little less like it was a true win. Like, was I really the best player that day? Could the conceding player have beat me if they had tried? It's pinball, it's always possible you can make a big comeback. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks like this and I can understand why a lot of people would find it disrespectful at first. It's clear that this wasn't something done out of anger or poor sportsmanship though, so while it is surprising to hear about yeah, I don't see it as being disrespectful, especially since Elwin and Esher seem to know each other well.

    #206 1 year ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Keith conceded a game.
    Escher conceded a game.
    Those sentences are literally identical in every single way.
    “But it’s different.”
    Nope.

    This is a *really* bad argument. You can't just take two scenarios, strip them of the details, and then say they're both the same thing and they're either both okay or both wrong.

    "Bob crashed his car"
    "Bill crashed his car"

    Well those are both the exact same thing so they're either both to blame or it was just an accident right? Except Bob was drunk and was looking at his phone while Bill had a deer jump out in front of him. Not the same thing.

    #207 1 year ago
    Quoted from Grandnational007:

    You’ve never walked up to ball 3, being down, let’s say 600mil to 7mil in a game of TWD, or some other ridiculous amount?
    .

    While i agree with your sentiment (regarding Keith being within his rights to do what he wants), the assumption that 800 to 900k on Dialed In is insurmountable or hard is incorrect. Most decent players should be able to do that, even with very basic rules knowledge on Dialed In. Hit guy, hit phone, hit flashing lights, get SIM card and repeat.

    #208 1 year ago

    I didn’t read everything and honestly don’t care but early on both sides see there way and I’m ok with that

    #209 1 year ago
    Quoted from robm:

    Hit guy, hit phone, hit flashing lights, get SIM card and repeat.

    Sounds easy but Keith had zero sim cards after the first 2 balls if I read the bonus screen correctly.

    Remember this was 8:15pm Sunday night and they started at 8:30am and there was a lot of rounds left to be played.

    You can imagine there was some thinking along the line of 'I should have taken him out before we ended up on game 9 dialed in! but could not, so check and mate'.

    #210 1 year ago

    It's funny, but some of you seem to forget that Keith does pinball tourneys for his own personal enjoyment. And if he's not having fun, he doesn't force himself to continue playing. He's had all the accolades and success he would ever want.

    I remember watching Keith pick a really brutal and luckish 70s pin in one of the finals at INDISC, simply because he was tired and wanted to go to bed, and he knew the round would be over quicker on a pin like that.

    I've honestly been happy to see Keith compete in several events over the last 6 months. As I think most of us thought that he'd more or less retired.

    #211 1 year ago
    Quoted from Grandnational007:

    You’ve never walked up to ball 3, being down, let’s say 600mil to 7mil in a game of TWD, or some other ridiculous amount?
    This past Monday, at a regular league session, I plunged and walked off after walking up to a 100k deficit on ball 3 of gtb hulk, and hitting the lit 2x skill shot, just to not slow the tournament down.
    I’ve been playing long enough to understand the odds, even when playing “perfect”. The BSD game from a couple of years ago at IFPA was not only an anomaly, it was basically “the perfect storm” between Danielle and Johaness (spelling). It was also the FINAL, deciding game. So there is certainly a difference there as well.

    So Johannes Ostermeier should have walked off on Game 9 of the IFPA16 final then? Some 3+ billion behind with 1 ball to go....

    Dont get me wrong I was behind KME all the way, but after playing for 4 hours and only having 1 ball left.... why? Why even start on DI. Concede before the game starts. Yes its not against the rules. Yes players have done it before. If it was a regular league night yeah ok... But its the timing along with the type of event that makes it shocking. Dont make it out like its a regular thing.

    I am fine with players conceding at the start of a game, or if they have to be somewhere... There are plenty of reasons. And look if players were not passionate about pinball, then this thread probably would not have started.

    #212 1 year ago

    Keith Elwin is the Mandalorian of pinball. If he is doing something, we will all be following his lead, soon enough. This is the way!!!

    #213 1 year ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:You’re making all tournament situations equal. This was for THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. that changes everything imo.
    It was a shocking decision. Plenty of seasoned tournament players agree.

    IMO if you enter a tournament, any tournament I don't care what it is, you stick it out to the end.

    #214 1 year ago
    Quoted from Roostking:

    IMO if you enter a tournament, any tournament I don't care what it is, you stick it out to the end.

    This is what I would do, but no one is obligated to do that. Up to them.

    #215 1 year ago
    Quoted from Roostking:

    IMO if you enter a tournament, any tournament I don't care what it is, you stick it out to the end.

    I guess you mean, 'your' end. It's depressing how few people stay around for the end of any tournament.

    #216 1 year ago
    Quoted from ectobar:

    I guess you mean, 'your' end. It's depressing how few people stay around for the end of any tournament.

    People got flights to catch, places to go...maybe they beef out and are kind of depressed and don't want to see the joy in the eventual winner's face.

    It would be nice if we had a crowd till the bitter end but it's still not much of a spectator sport. And fact is, your seat in your cab on the way to the airport watching the stream on you phone is pretty much just as good or better than what you'd see if you stuck around.

    Production - bleachers, giant screens, PA systems - would obviously bridge the gap but the budget / room isn't really there at most events. Pinburgh did a pretty good job pulling that off in its final couple of years.

    #217 1 year ago

    It’s pinball people. It’s not like he walked away from doing open heart surgery on someone.

    #218 1 year ago
    Quoted from BallyKISS1978:

    It’s pinball people. It’s not like he walked away from doing open heart surgery on someone.

    He also did that too. This goes really deep!

    Pretty much everybody in FLorida can do open heart. It comes up a lot down there!

    #219 1 year ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Pinburgh did a pretty good job pulling that off in its final couple of years

    That setup was excellent. Was a good time hanging around cheering on the finals.

    I'm not going but Yegpin looks like it's going to have a similar setup

    #220 1 year ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I didn’t think I took many pics but here we are!

    Man, seeing Bob and Jim makes me realize how long it's been since I really hung out with pinball players. Good to see those photos, thanks for sharing.

    I don't have a real opinion on Keith conceding. Feels like knocking over your king to me, I don't see it as disrespectful. I think people just wanted to see him try, and fair enough, but his call.

    Anyways, it's just a nice change of pace to see people talking actually playing pinball instead of just talking about the next game, so KME wins again.

    #221 1 year ago
    Quoted from yancy:

    Expo.

    No worries, I don't think they even have the internet up there.

    We do! You can watch the streams on twitch or YouTube on Foxcitiespinball.

    Cheap plug

    #222 1 year ago

    Are grits really considered a staple of US breakfast? I've never even seen grits on offer outside of the south. They suck!

    #223 1 year ago
    Quoted from Haymaker:

    Are grits really considered a staple of US breakfast? I've never even seen grits on offer outside of the south. They suck!

    Well the south is pretty big so I think it counts.

    But yes they do suck.

    #224 1 year ago
    Quoted from Haymaker:

    Are grits really considered a staple of US breakfast? I've never even seen grits on offer outside of the south. They suck!

    Grits are definitely a Southern institution. Like many Yanks, I had never heard of them until My Cousin Vinny.

    "Do the laws of space and time somehow not apply in your kitchen?!?!"

    #225 1 year ago
    Quoted from TomGWI:

    We do! You can watch the streams on twitch or YouTube on Foxcitiespinball.
    Cheap plug

    Foxcities rules!

    #226 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Well the south is pretty big so I think it counts.
    But yes they do suck.

    Tbh I didn't even know they were considered a breakfast item lol. I'm not trying to take anything from the south, I guess you're right that a large portion of the US considered them a staple. A large portion of the US also calls all soda "coke" and I would be unreasonably angry if I heard somebody say the US calls soda pop "coke". Then again, I call it pop, so maybe I'm the weird one!

    #227 1 year ago
    Quoted from Haymaker:

    Then again, I call it pop, so maybe I'm the weird one!

    Not weird, just Midwestern.

    #228 1 year ago

    Soda and pop are fine, but the whole 'coke' thing is bonkers.

    #229 1 year ago
    Quoted from Haymaker:

    ... Then again, I call it pop, so maybe I'm the weird one!

    You should hear us scold our daughter when she says "Soda." I don't know where she learned that shit but it aint allowed round here!

    #230 1 year ago
    Quoted from ectobar:

    Soda and pop are fine, but the whole 'coke' thing is bonkers.

    I know. Just like all these hillbillies calling my inline stakes Rollerblades.

    #231 1 year ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    I know. Just like all these hillbillies calling my inline stakes Rollerblades.

    I can deal with that one, but the fact that "I'll take a coke, Pepsi" is a real sentence somewhere is just silly.

    #232 1 year ago
    Quoted from ectobar:

    I can deal with that one, but the fact that "I'll take a coke, Pepsi" is a real sentence somewhere is just silly.

    I'll have a coke.

    "Is Pepsi ok?"

    Is even worse!

    PEPSI?!

    #233 1 year ago

    Out here, we just call it "diabetes."

    -6
    #234 1 year ago

    To me, this is a "don't hate the player, hate the rules" type of thing.

    Keith was well within his rights to walkoff. That's his choice, can't fault him for that.

    However, I think the IFPA needs to consider what their goals are.

    If they do not care about the viewing experience, leave it as is.

    If they *do* have aspirations of becoming an enjoyable event to watch, I think something should be added to the rules to dissuade walkoffs.

    As someone who's relatively new to the world of pinball, it was a serious buzz kill to watch Keith do that. I'd invested 3-4 hours into that match, only for it end in the most anticlimactic way possible.

    Can't speak for others, but I was much less invested in the event after that happened.

    Again, no hate to Keith. It's within his rights to opt out.

    #235 1 year ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I'll have a coke.
    "Is Pepsi ok?"
    Is even worse!
    PEPSI?!

    I was gonna find a Suicidal Tendencies gif but whatever.I think it might offend Palmer and GravitaR so ill leave it be.

    ARE WE STILL TALKIN' PRACTICE?

    #236 1 year ago
    Quoted from ectobar:

    I can deal with that one, but the fact that "I'll take a coke, Pepsi" is a real sentence somewhere is just silly.

    People keep calling my flying discs frisbees too. It’s horseshit.

    #237 1 year ago

    Keith conceded a game.
    Escher conceded a game.
    Those sentences are literally identical in every single way.
    “But it’s different.”

    From a competitive.standpoint, you're correct. Identical situations.

    From a viewing experience perspective, they could not.be more different.

    The last ball of the last game during a 3 hour long match leads to an extremely unsatisfying ending. Moving to the next game early in a series where that game might not matter just doesn't leave me going, "...that's it?"

    #238 1 year ago
    Quoted from Kigoli:

    ... it was a serious buzz kill to watch Keith do that. I'd invested 3-4 hours into that match, only for it end in the most anticlimactic way possible.

    Well then, I guess pinball is a sport after all

    #239 1 year ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    "Do the laws of space and time somehow not apply in your kitchen?!?!"

    Only for instant grits. Which no self respecting southerner would use.

    LTG : )

    #240 1 year ago
    Quoted from PismoArcade:

    This is probably a dumb question but is there no ball save in tournaments?

    It really depends on how the tournament directors want to set up games for the tournament. Usually for weekly/monthly bar tournaments, games are generally setup with default settings, only with tournament mode on (for derandomization), so ball savers are usually set to their defaults.

    In particular though, the Sharpes seem to dislike the initial ball save, so any tournaments they run (official IFPA events) will indeed likely set them off.

    #241 1 year ago
    Quoted from cornycrunch:

    It really depends on how the tournament directors want to set up games for the tournament. Usually for weekly/monthly bar tournaments, games are generally setup with default settings, only with tournament mode on (for derandomization), so ball savers are usually set to their defaults.
    In particular though, the Sharpes seem to dislike the initial ball save, so any tournaments they run (official IFPA events) will indeed likely set them off.

    The Sharpes have a lot of unique little Sharpisms that always come into play. Signature moves!

    No Ball saves or EBs. Except when it happens for whatever reason.

    Early Digital and EM games player 1 / 3 only to avoid tilt throughs. In finals, EMs only 1 player, for some reason. Avoid tilt throughs via two players? Just one set of score reels to deal with / maintain? Who knows!! It's the Sharpes.

    30 (more or less) seconds of practice for all players on all games all tournament.

    I'm sure there's a few more I'm forgetting.

    #242 1 year ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    People keep calling my flying discs frisbees too. It’s horseshit.

    Oh, go cry in your Kleenex...

    #243 1 year ago

    I don't know...there are tournaments that are super high level and have the best of the best in them. The people that play in these tournaments are usually beyond mortal pinball players, and have played in a ton of tournaments. If someone wants to plunge and walk away that's fine. I doubt most people complaining would ever make it to the finals of a tournament like this anyway. I know players in the past who have had to catch planes, just got tired, whatever, and people complained as well. 'Why not reschedule the flight, blah, blah'... Well the honest truth is, they already play in a zillion tournaments, are the best of the best, so they can plunge and walk away if they want. There is no need for a rule change or anything, not that one would be made anyway.

    #244 1 year ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    No Ball saves or EBs. Except when it happens for whatever reason.

    This seems pretty normal to me these days.

    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Early Digital and EM games player 1 / 3 only to avoid tilt throughs.

    First time I had seen this but I'm not mad at it.

    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    EMs only 1 player, for some reason. Avoid tilt throughs via two players? Just one set of score reels to deal with / maintain? Who knows!!

    A little weird but I think the score reel is probably the answer. As you know a reel was a whole thing at Pinfest and then another similar incident happened at the DPO. Easier to babysit one reel I guess.

    #245 1 year ago
    Quoted from ectobar:

    This seems pretty normal to me these days.

    First time I had seen this but I'm not mad at it.

    A little weird but I think the score reel is probably the answer. As you know a reel was a whole thing at Pinfest and then another similar incident happened at the DPO. Easier to babysit one reel I guess.

    Yeah I think some of this stuff is a little quirky but they've been doing this forever and basically invented modern tourney pinball so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

    #246 1 year ago

    They did leave the tiny ball save period you get when you make a skillshot on an Elwin game (and that's something that can be switched off too).

    #247 1 year ago
    Quoted from cornycrunch:

    They did leave the tiny ball save period you get when you make a skillshot on an Elwin game (and that's something that can be switched off too).

    Indeed. I believe a general rule of thumb used is: did you earn your reward (in this case, some ball-save), and is it the same for everyone? If so, leave it in.
    To my knowledge, on the modern Sterns, the IFPA setup crew installed Factory, then Comp Install, then Novelty (for free play and the points for EB/Special).

    #248 1 year ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    I don't have a real opinion on Keith conceding. Feels like knocking over your king to me

    I see what you're saying but, There's no luck in chess. There is in pinball. Comeback was possible.

    #249 1 year ago

    Y'all acting like this was the last tournament he was ever going to play rather than the elimination game of a single tournament.

    Down by a big margin on a game he apparently doesn't like and doesn't know well, and it's late. Nothing wrong with saying fuckit and trying again next tournament.

    #250 1 year ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    30 (more or less) seconds of practice for all players on all games all tournament.
    I'm sure there's a few more I'm forgetting.

    This is one thing i think is not in the best interest of the running of the tournament as a whole. It can really drag out time for the event. A few years ago at a major Aussie event (150ish players), with 7 x 3 game rounds, practice easily added an hour plus to the day. Its not just 30 seconds per player.... its the ball saves from playing the game out, rounding up the 4 people (in the middle of 150 other people), someone wanting an extra 5 seconds so starting a new game, then plunging the other balls out.

    Part of the challenge i reckon, having a little bit of mystery around the small nuances of an individual game. In my tournaments, if i have long playing game set up with tight tilts - i put a sign on the game to advise this so everyone is on the same page.

    There are 435 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 9.

    Reply

    Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

    Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

    Donate to Pinside

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


    This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/keith-elwin-plunges-and-walks-off/page/5?hl=crumbalimb and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

    Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.