(Topic ID: 242043)

Just got a Williams Tradewinds, been sitting 20yrs, where to start?

By gearbutt

2 years ago


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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by jrpinball
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#1 2 years ago

How to Efficiently Ask for Pinball Repair Help (EM)

Credit for this thread layout Vid1900

HAVE YOU CHOSEN THE RIGHT FORUM.
Let's find out.

NAME OF GAME, MANUFACTURER AND YEAR:
1962 Williams Trade Winds, per the original owners manual it came with.
-
DID IT EVER WORK IN YOUR POSSESSION?
... Yes. Kind of, mostly. See video for quick overview of the machine.

PART OF IT IS DARK TO SHOW SPARKS. IT MADE SENSE TO ME.

Two of the pop bumpers stick (red and yellow) until the game resets for the next play, in which case they drop until touched again.

[EDIT: Only the RED pop bumper sticks now, after having done absolutely nothing, I have managed to let Yellow fix itself by making it stick and unplugging it repeatedly to find the relay!]

WHERE DID THE GAME COME FROM?

A man in Massachussetts bought this new in 1962 for a club house he built over his swimming pool. He was the only owner. He was put in a nursing home about 20 years ago, but kept paying the taxes and utilities for his clubhouse until his death around 5 years ago. The man I bought it from got the machine from the family of the deceased around 5 years ago, had no place to put it and ended up keeping it in a barn for the entire time he had it, and never once plugged it in. The picture I have from when this man picked it up has the same score on the reel that was on it when I plugged it in for the first time a couple of weeks ago.

Where it sat since 1962:
https://i.imgur.com/Z22AakQ.jpg

Original owners final score:
https://i.imgur.com/MXyjrZm.jpg

WHAT WAS THE LAST SERVICE YOU PERFORMED?
I plugged it in for the first time in 20 years, a couple of weeks ago.

There's a bag of NOS replacement rubber pieces inside the cabinet, but it is unopened.

The ball shooter was rusted solid, and would not shoot. The ball booper was done the same, and would not move to raise balls up. I made them do the things.

BLOWN FUSES:
I bought some assorted 250v fuses, but am not putting anything anywhere until I know exactly why I'm doing so.

This is what the fuse panel looks like, I'm not sure what is missing, or how putting a fuse in would affect the game:
https://i.imgur.com/8pDRt8w.jpg

SMELL:
A bit of an ozone smell, mixed with a hint of abandoned barn. Nothing smells warm though. After the video, I immediately put a laser thermometer on everything. the right flipper coil was 85 degrees, everything else around 70 except the yellow and red coils were also nearing 85. I had been holding down the flipper a lot during the video to see if it did things. Most of the smell was when I first turned it on, now I can't really get much of an anything.

OBVIOUS PAST WORK PERFORMED:

Inside the top box there is a pin where two wires meet and go into a socket. It is not in the socket.

There are a bunch of others just like it, but they are in the sockets.

https://i.imgur.com/mWuPMuH.jpg

I can get more pictures of that if anyone thinks it will help.

-
DO YOU HAVE A VOLT/MULTI-METER:

Got one at walmart. I can set it to horseshoe and tell people some numbers if necessary.

CAN YOU SOLDER?

Can I solder? Of course I can solder. Can I solder well? Of course not.

DO YOU HAVE THE SCHEMATIC?

I do. It's online too, this is apparently a well documented machine.

YOUR LOCATION?
29/m/CT, but I'm shy.

PICTURES:
Yes.

Here's the scorey bits in the top box: https://i.imgur.com/ggg525J.jpg

and some sort of bell thing: https://i.imgur.com/ZnkOMSy.jpg

Anyone want any pictures, information, anything to do with this, just let me know.

I just want to make it fully functioning and safe to play for now, so my wife and I can enjoy it, so mostly I want to figure out how to make the pop bumpers pop, and then not pop.

Added 18 months ago:

.

#2 2 years ago

Please read this entire document twice before you do anything:

http://www.pinrepair.com/em/

#3 2 years ago

Yes, what wayout440 said above... get familiar with the machine and its components..

If you are gonna take things apart (stepper units, score reels, etc) take LOTS of pictures and don't get too far ahead of yourself. The guys here are willing to help. They have helped me! If you feel your getting frustrated.. walk away for a bit.. I've been there, done that.

#4 2 years ago

Two very important points mentioned in the links:

1. When you have a partially functioning EM game resist the urge to go through adjusting everything all at once, as most of the time this causes more headaches than it solves.

2. Never use flammable contact cleaner.

I find it best to get the game 100% working before starting more in depth restoration. It really helps to know for certain that something worked before teardown so you know "it was something I touched" during the subsequent work.

#5 2 years ago

Print the schematic so that you can stand over the machine with the schematic in hand, then just look at things until it clicks in your head. If you're going to fix it, you're going to have to understand what you're looking at. Once you understand what you're looking at, it should be easier to work on. Sorry I don't have better advice, but that's what worked for me.

Good luck with it.

#6 2 years ago

Have a look at this post to understand how pop bumpers work: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pop-bumper-model

Then check the end-of-stroke switch on the sticky pop bumper.

EM pins often have options you can control with the plugs you show. In your picture those plugs are for giving out awards at different point thresholds so it is normal that not all of them are plugged in.

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Please read this entire document twice before you do anything:
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/

I've read over the parts of it that were relevant before posting here, but some of that (a lot of it) sure goes way over my head since I don't even know most of the terminology and never saw inside a pinball machine until I got this thing home.

Quoted from wayout440:

Two very important points mentioned in the links:
1. When you have a partially functioning EM game resist the urge to go through adjusting everything all at once, as most of the time this causes more headaches than it solves.
2. Never use flammable contact cleaner.
I find it best to get the game 100% working before starting more in depth restoration. It really helps to know for certain that something worked before teardown so you know "it was something I touched" during the subsequent work.

I actually had planned to gut it when I saw it listed, and just learn how it works by putting it back together over a period of time, but it's so unbelievably nice, it's like brand new inside. It probably 95% functions as-is. I think this pop bumper is all I'm going to fix for now, so I can get some gameplay out of it and see how well it holds up and make sure all of the logic/functionality of the game progression is there for leveling up and such.

Quoted from johnboy1313:

Print the schematic so that you can stand over the machine with the schematic in hand, then just look at things until it clicks in your head. If you're going to fix it, you're going to have to understand what you're looking at. Once you understand what you're looking at, it should be easier to work on. Sorry I don't have better advice, but that's what worked for me.
Good luck with it.

It actually came with the original schematics, so Williams already printed it out for me

Quoted from dr_nybble:

Have a look at this post to understand how pop bumpers work: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pop-bumper-model
Then check the end-of-stroke switch on the sticky pop bumper.
EM pins often have options you can control with the plugs you show. In your picture those plugs are for giving out awards at different point thresholds so it is normal that not all of them are plugged in.

Thank you sir! That post right there was what I was looking for. Glad to know the plug isn't something bad, and now that I know what EOS stands for, I'll figure that out.

Also I just learned that there is a LOW LINE or a HIGH LINE and that one must be empty for the other to work, and that putting a fuse in that empty fuse spot would be considered a real bad deal. Glad I didn't do that.

#8 2 years ago

I almost purchased that thing a few years back.

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

I almost purchased that thing a few years back.

I saw! The man really never did plug it in, he was afraid to and didn't really have a space to fix it in so he let it sit.

I got a pretty nice price on it, and it's my first pinball machine so I'm happy.

On an unrelated note, how hot should the coil on the lock get? While doing some troubleshooting (and trying to figure out how to get to Tahiti) I checked it and it went from 110F to 115F in about 4 seconds, and was rising steadily.

#10 2 years ago
Quoted from gearbutt:

I saw! The man really never did plug it in, he was afraid to and didn't really have a space to fix it in so he let it sit.
I got a pretty nice price on it, and it's my first pinball machine so I'm happy.
On an unrelated note, how hot should the coil on the lock get? While doing some troubleshooting (and trying to figure out how to get to Tahiti) I checked it and it went from 110F to 115F in about 4 seconds, and was rising steadily.

Don't know off hand but they get toasty, not uncommon to see the label burned off.

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from gearbutt:

I saw! The man really never did plug it in, he was afraid to and didn't really have a space to fix it in so he let it sit.
I got a pretty nice price on it, and it's my first pinball machine so I'm happy.
On an unrelated note, how hot should the coil on the lock get? While doing some troubleshooting (and trying to figure out how to get to Tahiti) I checked it and it went from 110F to 115F in about 4 seconds, and was rising steadily.

When you say “stuck” I assume you mean locked on.
That is very bad. If the coil is locked on for more than 5 or 10 seconds it’s gonna melt. They reach well over 400 degrees extremely rapidly. It may take longer on EMs but not by much. Hot is bad. When trouble shooting you want to quickly find the locked on coil, attempt your fix, and then let it cool off and see if that fixed it.

Chances are the contacts are oxidized/corroded. Get some 800/1000 grit sandpaper (nearly NO bite) and cut small strips and fold it in half, put the paper in between the contacts and hold it closed. Rip the paper out a few times like you’re ripping a credit card through. That’s all you need to clean contacts. Don’t use a file. Anyone who says “file the contacts” is ruining machines or has misspoke and what they mean is “fine sandpaper”

The other chance is that the switch is tapped too wide. Be very careful adjusting them. If you accidentally close them and it stays closed then you will cause a lock-on/reset issue.

#12 2 years ago

I meant the actual LOCK coil that is always on when the game is on, from what I've read. The locked on coil as in my pop bumper relay not undoing when it gets triggered, that is another thing entirely. I've seen it hit 90F before I reset it, but I still can't manage to get it to stop staying in the triggered stage, although the other one that was doing the same eventually stopped on its own.

I assume these contacts are a lot like cleaning slot car contacts, so I'll proceed as best I can. I'll keep you guys updated, you've all been incredibly helpful so far, and I'm eager to just play a game without worrying about fire from a stuck pop bumper.

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

Don’t use a file. Anyone who says “file the contacts” is ruining machines or has misspoke and what they mean is “fine sandpaper”

Been using point files for some time, does take a light touch though.

Get one of the flexly files from PBResource, they work well.

#14 2 years ago

I got it! did a very loose cleaning on the contacts and then triggered it and untriggered it several times until it decided it was done sticking.

641 is my hiscore. wife's playing now.

Only problems are, the gameboard is worn down, there's a groove from the ball rolling over the same path countless times, so it doesn't want to deviate from that path in certain spots.

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

Been using point files for some time, does take a light touch though.
Get one of the flexly files from PBResource, they work well.

That’s a different point that I didn’t want to get into. I have used the PBR files before but they’re more like nail files then the harsh metal files I see most people go use when they hear “file the contact” so I try to not even mention it at all. But yes, those PBR ones are specifically made for the purpose of gently cleaning contacts. And if you’re careful you can use others.

Blue sparks:
Those are normal in most EMs. It’s because the contacts are dirty, they spark a little bit. It’s harmless but that’s all the black dust you see stuck over everything. If you use the 800/1000 grit sand paper or the special contact file from PBR the sparks will stop. And the game will stay cleaner.

#16 2 years ago
20190502_201030.jpg20190502_200718.jpg20190502_200822.jpg20190502_200622.jpg20190502_200451.jpg20190502_200629.jpg20190502_200557.jpg20190502_200736.jpg
#17 2 years ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

That’s a different point that I didn’t want to get into. I have used the PBR files before but they’re more like nail files then the harsh metal files I see most people go use when they hear “file the contact” so I try to not even mention it at all. But yes, those PBR ones are specifically made for the purpose of gently cleaning contacts. And if you’re careful you can use others.
Blue sparks:
Those are normal in most EMs. It’s because the contacts are dirty, they spark a little bit. It’s harmless but that’s all the black dust you see stuck over everything. If you use the 800/1000 grit sand paper or the special contact file from PBR the sparks will stop. And the game will stay cleaner.

You'll never get all the sparks on an EM to stop. It's not the condition of the switch contacts that causes that.

Mostly agree on cleaning the contacts but some like flipper button switches will require a metal file. Just don't go nuts with the it.

#18 2 years ago

I'm glad to see someone finally bought that...I had considered it several times over as it was near me. Too many projects scared me off, so I'm glad you're giving it a go. Good luck! The story behind it alone seems like it is worth it.

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from gearbutt:

I meant the actual LOCK coil that is always on when the game is on, from what I've read. The locked on coil as in my pop bumper relay not undoing when it gets triggered, that is another thing entirely. I've seen it hit 90F before I reset it, but I still can't manage to get it to stop staying in the triggered stage, although the other one that was doing the same eventually stopped on its own.
I assume these contacts are a lot like cleaning slot car contacts, so I'll proceed as best I can. I'll keep you guys updated, you've all been incredibly helpful so far, and I'm eager to just play a game without worrying about fire from a stuck pop bumper.

Lock relay coils are extremely high resistance and are designed to be on for long periods of time. They will get warm. The wrapper will get toasty. Overall, I wouldn't worry about coil temps. And while you don't want them lo lock on for long periods a pop bumper coil will not melt in 5 to 10 seconds. It takes a bit more than that.

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

Lock relay coils are extremely high resistance and are designed to be on for long periods of time. They will get warm. The wrapper will get toasty. Overall, I wouldn't worry about coil temps. And while you don't want them lo lock on for long periods a pop bumper coil will not melt in 5 to 10 seconds. It takes a bit more than that.

This is something I had wondered myself.
Is there a limit to how long EMs can safely sit? I mean if the game sat in an arcade in the 70’s for 12 hours or more, then does that mean that is still acceptable? I worry that with age the lock relay coils may be more susceptible to burning up.

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

This is something I had wondered myself.
Is there a limit to how long EMs can safely sit? I mean if the game sat in an arcade in the 70’s for 12 hours or more, then does that mean that is still acceptable? I worry that with age the lock relay coils may be more susceptible to burning up.

Well, over time, sure, but not just in a one day setting, they won't burn up.

Now, a bumper coil or some other coil with a lower resistance will go a lot faster, but I've had them locked on for a minute or so and they're fine. I am not about to try and see how long it takes, but I know that if they lock on for 30 seconds or so, they'll generally survive. The sleeve might eventually melt and you wouldn't be able to get it out of the coil. In the old days with metal sleeves they were hard to get out anyway. I've thrown out coils that were ok because the metal sleeve was dicey and removing it will sometimes destroy the windings. They just come apart.

Lock coils are really high resistance and are designed to do what they do. They'll got toasty and the wrapper will eventually get smoked but they will last a long time.

The designers back then knew that the games were going to sit on for long times so they put in a coil that could handle it.

If you turned a game on and left it on for 24 hours and came back, the lock coil would be pretty warm but it would still be functional and would continue to be for quite awhile.

#22 2 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

Well, over time, sure, but not just in a one day setting, they won't burn up.
Now, a bumper coil or some other coil with a lower resistance will go a lot faster, but I've had them locked on for a minute or so and they're fine.

I had a Gottlieb popper coil get locked on and in a very short period of time smoke was rolling out the cabinet door!

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

I had a Gottlieb popper coil get locked on and in a very short period of time smoke was rolling out the cabinet door!

The game may have been high-tapped. Just one more reason you should never do this needlessly.

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